Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

[The Ben]

Yes, for the same reason you shouldn't have texture hacks. It breaks the EULA you agreed to upon purchasing your Wii.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

In which case, the Unity Ruleset should say that texture and music hacks are banned as well as gameplay altering codes.

There is no reason to allow or disallow one without doing the same to the other.

 

[Judo777]

@The Ben: I also said some stuff that's relevant, and based under the assumption that with hacks we do violate the ToS and stuff.

@Judo: If the Wii was hacked, and there weren't any hacks active, I'm pretty sure it wasn't the Wii being hacked that caused the issue lol.

And putting on no tripping actually doesn't require hacking or softmodding the Wii anyway.

So the fact that the wii itself has to keep track of the software to allow hacks doesn't play a part? Cause if so then I withdraw my point. I have however never had trouble with a Wii that wasn't hacked and I have only had long transformations on hacked wiis.

 

[Arcansi]

So the fact that the wii itself has to keep track of the software to allow hacks doesn't play a part? Cause if so then I withdraw my point. I have however never had trouble with a Wii that wasn't hacked and I have only had long transformations on hacked wiis.

The wii itself doesn't keep track of it.

It sits unnoticed until it is needed, and then the Wii will access it.

The only way a hack being on the wii would speed up/slow down the loading time is if

1. The hack effected the Sheilda files somehow (making them considerably larger or smaller, for instance.)

2. The hack gave the wii 'more things to do' during the time of the transformation.

This is also present in unhacked brawl, as seen with Castle Siege.

3. The hack put a code in that slowed down the transform time. (I don't THINK you could speed it up, but I don't know.)

 

[Ghostbone]

In which case, the Unity Ruleset should say that texture and music hacks are banned as well as gameplay altering codes.

There is no reason to allow or disallow one without doing the same to the other.

The reason to not allow gameplay altering codes is because well,
they alter gameplay.

And as for legality.
Once I buy a wii it's my wii lol.
Nintendo has no ownership over it, I can do whatever I want to it, I can hack it, burn it, take it apart, etc. What I shouldn't expect is to be allowed to use their network, since it's theirs obviously. I also shouldn't expect them to fix it if it breaks lol.
But hacking the wii itself isn't illegal.

And you don't even have to hack your wii to run a modded Brawl.
As for the legality of that, pretty sure Brawl tournaments are already technically illegal in many US states because of the "Player vs Machine" aspects of it. (e.g. tripping, stages)
And Nintendo doesn't give a **** about competitive Brawl, and doesn't give a **** about about modded Brawl tournaments either.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The reason to not allow gameplay altering codes is because well,
they alter gameplay.

So does a ledge-grab limit, we have already said as a community that that is ok.

 

[Ghostbone]

So does a ledge-grab limit, we have already said as a community that that is ok.

Yea but we don't need to hack the game for that, and it's necessary.

Is turning off tripping necessary? No it's not.

 

[The Ben]

As for the legality of that, pretty sure Brawl tournaments are already technically illegal in many US states because of the "Player vs Machine" aspects of it. (e.g. tripping, stages)

This is actually my field of expertise (business law was an important part of my studies in college.). The answer to this is probably not. I assume we're talking about gambling laws which usually make an exception to "games of skill". This would break into semantics in a court of law, but if games that actually require randomizing decks are viewed as games of skill (see Magic: The Gathering), than tripping is probably not enough to outweigh skill. Furthermore, machines are incapable of true randomness therefor it is arguable that tripping is not random nor an impediment to skill. In most states(probably all states, but if not every state than at least every state I've looked at) gambling laws don't apply to games of skill and we're therefor exempt from them. However, in the bizarre case that we find a state not like that (I can't think of any) the laws we'd need to worry about are money related (for example in Nebraska nobody can lose more than 50 dollars in a night in a non-sanctioned gamble).

And Nintendo doesn't give a **** about competitive Brawl, and doesn't give a **** about about modded Brawl tournaments either.

That isn't the point. Them not giving a **** doesn't prevent potential repercussions.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Yea but we don't need to hack the game for that

So?

Is turning off tripping necessary? No it's not.

A global ledge-grab limit is not necessary, no.

 

[Judo777]

The wii itself doesn't keep track of it.

It sits unnoticed until it is needed, and then the Wii will access it.

The only way a hack being on the wii would speed up/slow down the loading time is if

1. The hack effected the Sheilda files somehow (making them considerably larger or smaller, for instance.)

2. The hack gave the wii 'more things to do' during the time of the transformation.

This is also present in unhacked brawl, as seen with Castle Siege.

3. The hack put a code in that slowed down the transform time. (I don't THINK you could speed it up, but I don't know.)

Ok then. Btw you can speed it up I have seen it. It is something as simple as installing all the Zelda/Sheik files on the wii so it doesn't have to read from the disc. The transform is almost instant (like 30 frames)

 

[theunabletable]

Yea but we don't need to hack the game for that, and it's necessary.

Is turning off tripping necessary? No it's not.

This sort of boils down to two questions, asking what it is about hacking a game that's so abhorrent in competitive play, especially when it's so simple to do, and what it means for something to be necessary.

I wouldn't say that having an LGL is necessary for any objective reason, other than our community wants it, which is a perfectly fine thing, imo

 

[ElDominio]

The reason to not allow gameplay altering codes is because well,
they alter gameplay.

And as for legality.
Once I buy a wii it's my wii lol.
Nintendo has no ownership over it, I can do whatever I want to it, I can hack it, burn it, take it apart, etc. What I shouldn't expect is to be allowed to use their network, since it's theirs obviously. I also shouldn't expect them to fix it if it breaks lol.
But hacking the wii itself isn't illegal.

Read up on the DMCA.

Your Wii isn't yours. Nintendo's EULA is the naziest one of them all.

 

[Ghostbone]

Read up on the DMCA.

Your Wii isn't yours. Nintendo's EULA is the naziest one of them all.

Eh I don't have the time to read up on the EULA or Australia's laws on the matter, so I'll take your word for it.


But the point still stands that Nintendo doesn't care about competitive Brawl, and are not going to care if we're playing a hack.

Anyway who thinks they will ever take action (in Brawl's lifetime at least) is fooling themselves.

The only thing they would care about is if the people who made mods started profiting from them.

I wouldn't say that having an LGL is necessary for any objective reason, other than our community wants it, which is a perfectly fine thing, imo

While I agree that generally what the community wants is best for the community (almost by definition really), we have to be careful not to be unfair for the minority.
e.g. a universal scrooging limit might sound like a clean and simple rule, and the majority might want it, but it would be taking an option away from Pit players that's very helpful when recovering. There are probably better examples but meh.
There's also the thing of, the majority of the community wants MK banned (75% by the most recent poll lol), but that hasn't happened yet.

A LGL should only be applied to MK imo, as his is the only broken planking, so MK mains can suck it up and deal with the fact that at least their character isn't banned.
While you have DK/Pit mains who have a hard time getting up from the edge, and easily rack up ledge grabs without "planking" in the camping sense. Every character can get him off the ledge anyway, it might be "gay" but really playing Olimar is gay too, ban him? Ban his pivot grab at least, that's the most gay part about him. It might reduce hype for tournaments, but MK does that way more, it's just planking gets more attention because it doesn't happen as often (because there's almost always a LGL)

 

[Supreme Dirt]

All they can do in Canada (at least for the moment... damn it feds) is ban me from their online. That is the ONLY thing they can legally do if I hack my Wii.

 

[-LzR-]

All they can do in Canada (at least for the moment... damn it feds) is ban me from their online. That is the ONLY thing they can legally do if I hack my Wii.

But how are you going to enter tournaments if you don't have wifi D:

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Oh right lol.

...

...

*smacks*

 

[GoldenGlove]

Hi Brawl players.

1. Brawl tournaments are public performances of copyrighted material. Nintendo has the legal right to shut down any tournament at any time. If you think they're ever going to take action against a tournament that doesn't involve large profits for its organizers/promoters, you are dumb and wrong. If you think they're any more likely to take action against a tournament because of hacked wiis, you are even more dumb and wrong.

2. Anti-trip's ONLY effect is to reduce the role of random chance in determining a game's outcome. If you think this is anti-competitive, you are dumb and wrong.

 

[WindMajor]

I'm insulted.

 

[Flayl]

Albuquerque on that asperger status

 

[popsofctown]

2. Anti-trip's ONLY effect is to reduce the role of random chance in determining a game's outcome. If you think this is anti-competitive, you are dumb and wrong.

That's not it's only effect, unfortunately. It makes characters that dash frequently (D3, Falco, Fox) slightly less powerful and characters that rarely dash (Luigi, Wario, Jigglypuff) slightly more powerful. The slight changes in these character's power level mirror how slight the improvement to variability that disabling tripping actually brings.

Unless the anti-trip hack becomes widely and easily accessible, it's unfair to slightly buff or nerf people's characters when they show up to tournaments. And their playstyles, since someone who's practiced on a normal wii is ever so slightly less likely to dash.

 

[Ghostbone]

That's not it's only effect, unfortunately. It makes characters that dash frequently (D3, Falco, Fox) slightly less powerful and characters that rarely dash (Luigi, Wario, Jigglypuff) slightly more powerful. The slight changes in these character's power level mirror how slight the improvement to variability that disabling tripping actually brings.

Unless the anti-trip hack becomes widely and easily accessible, it's unfair to slightly buff or nerf people's characters when they show up to tournaments. And their playstyles, since someone who's practiced on a normal wii is ever so slightly less likely to dash.

Umm, you mean turning off tripping buffs characters who dash a lot right?

And yea I agree.
With tripping turned off, people's playstyles will be different.
For 1 I'd start dash dancing a lot, I'm sure others would too.
IC mains would be able to safely do dash infinites (which is important against Snake iirc).
And other small stuff like that, but in the end it adds up and you're no longer playing Brawl.
You're playing something similar, but it's not Brawl.

 

[popsofctown]

I talked about playstyles towards the end.

And you're confusion comes from the antecedent of "it's" (which should be "its", possessive), I was referring to the impact of tripping itself, not the hack.

Now you editted your post and mine makes less sense.

This is why I like forums that allow double posting.

 

[Ghostbone]

I talked about playstyles towards the end.

Yea I said I agreed with that and elaborated on it
Though I did miss that part of your post at first.

And you're confusion comes from the antecedent of "it's" (which should be "its", possessive), I was referring to the impact of tripping itself, not the hack.

You could have been more clear on that Especially since the post you were quoting was specifically talking about the effects of anti-trip.

Now you editted your post and mine makes less sense.

This is why I like forums that allow double posting.

Unfortunately when you allow double posting you end up with people posting like 5 times in a row with like a line of text each, continuing on about what they were saying before or correcting something in their previous post because they can't be bothered pressing edit...
And it just takes up unneeded space :/

 

[-LzR-]

That's not it's only effect, unfortunately. It makes characters that dash frequently (D3, Falco, Fox) slightly less powerful and characters that rarely dash (Luigi, Wario, Jigglypuff) slightly more powerful. The slight changes in these character's power level mirror how slight the improvement to variability that disabling tripping actually brings.

Unless the anti-trip hack becomes widely and easily accessible, it's unfair to slightly buff or nerf people's characters when they show up to tournaments. And their playstyles, since someone who's practiced on a normal wii is ever so slightly less likely to dash.

Oh my, some characters have advantages over each other. That's horrible. Guess what would happen with no tripping? The exact opposite.

 

[popsofctown]

Yea I said I agreed with that and elaborated on it
Though I did miss that part of your post at first.

You could have been more clear on that Especially since the post you were quoting was specifically talking about the effects of anti-trip.

Unfortunately when you allow double posting you end up with people posting like 5 times in a row with like a line of text each, continuing on about what they were saying before or correcting something in their previous post because they can't be bothered pressing edit...
And it just takes up unneeded space :/

I understand it can be abused. But it is useful when people are ninjaing eachother, it's more clear what happened. This is kind of a tangent and not a big deal. I should have been more clear about the antecedent of it.

Oh my, some characters have advantages over each other. That's horrible. Guess what would happen with no tripping? The exact opposite.

I can't understand what you are trying to say because of the sarcasm.

 

[WindMajor]

We shouldn't fear a change in balance, is what he's saying.

 

[popsofctown]

If everyone has access to try out ntBrawl at home and practice, it's cool.

 

[Luigisama]

not sure if this was stated but.
Benefits of having tripping on
1. you trip and you use to your liking in any way. Roll away from your opponent
2. roll behind them
3. you just get up because your opponent is no where near to hurt you or you have some other reason for using it.
4. use it to attack your opponent and not get hurt.
5. use attack trip animation as protection because of the invincibility frames. I've done this against snakes in tourney to avoid getting hit by explosives and against mks to stop nados at start up.

Dangers of tripping
1. you trip into a smash move or some strong attack.
2. you trip causing you to miss an opportunity to take a stock

with tripping off you lose the benefits, but avoid the dangers of it.

I prefer tripping on. Having tripping on or off is a choice that is really up to the players.

 

[moomoomamoo]

The way I like to think of it is: Imagine if tripping wasn't originally apart of brawl. And someone on the forums offered an idea that said: "What if we made a hack that introduced tripping in brawl." It wouldn't be denied because it was a hack, it would be denied because it's a stupid idea.

However, with the only way for tripping to be turned off is through hacks, I'd say it'll never be allowed just on that alone, you can all argue why tripping is good for brawl, but the truth is this is the only reason why it's still in the game at tournaments.

 

[Ghostbone]

However, with the only way for tripping to be turned off is through hacks, I'd say it'll never be allowed just on that alone, you can all argue why tripping is good for brawl, but the truth is this is the only reason why it's still in the game at tournaments.

I don't think anyone would contest this.

Tripping is stupid, a bunch of stuff in Brawl is stupid, and it's stupid to only remove/edit some stupid stuff without the rest of the stupid stuff.

 

[Akaku94]

^Exactly^

Removing tripping without removing other "noncompetetive" elements creates a double standard. The logical extension of removing tripping is to remove the YI cloud, force SV's platform to always start at the same place, and any other random stage element... while we're at it, we should (following this to the logical conclusion) also use a hack that makes G&W's hammer only get one number, D3's toss to pull all Waddle Dees, and Luigi to either always misfire or never misfire!

Tripping makes dashing a risk/reward element, just like certain special moves. Characters that dash frequently have to take into account tripping, and characters that rarely (if ever) dash have the benefit of not having to worry about tripping; it's a character trait that would be unfairly nerfed/buffed by removing tripping!

Without even getting into the hacking argument...

 

[Shadic]

Removing tripping without removing other "noncompetetive" elements creates a double standard. The logical extension of removing tripping is to remove the YI cloud, force SV's platform to always start at the same place, and any other random stage element... while we're at it, we should (following this to the logical conclusion) also use a hack that makes G&W's hammer only get one number, D3's toss to pull all Waddle Dees, and Luigi to either always misfire or never misfire!

'sup, Reductio ad absurdum.

 

[Ghostbone]

'sup, Reductio ad absurdum.

And?
What's the point of this post?

 

[Akaku94]

It's not reductio ad absurdum! It's pointing out a DOUBLE STANDARD that occurs if we remove tripping artificially. What is the difference between tripping (a calculated risk taken by dashing) and random B moves (calculated risks taken by performing the move)? Stage elements like the cloud are random, and you take the cloud possibility in to account when recovering/edgeguarding! How can we justify removing one random risk-reward and leaving countless others?

 

[Circle_Breaker]

It's not a double standard. The situations are dissimilar because most risks are calculated as they are presented (upon stage choice, upon move usage etc.) while with tripping you have to have to take a random event into account before you even turn the game on. It's just too pervasive. It doesn't bear much relation to the chance involved when using G&W's hammer.

also other communities would laugh at you guys for calling what we do to our wiis to run brawl+ or whatever "hacking". not that it's technically incorrect, I guess, but all we do is put a file on an SD card and open stage builder. it's less than a minor procedure, far far easier even than installing custom firmware on a PSP, and we never work with code or really do anything.

 

[Akaku94]

Yes, it is a double standard. The situations are very similar; dashing carries inherent risk/reward, just like G&W's hammer or any other random moves. Removing the risk but keeping the reward for tripping logically presents the responsibility to "fix" other random risk-reward elements in a similar fashion.

 

[El Duderino]

And?
What's the point of this post?

Illustrating how illogical the claim was. Shadic was just pointing out the deductive fallacy that lead to absurd conclusions and therefore should be disregarded. Not saying either side is right, just that this is the wrong way to go about arguing for it.

 

[Akaku94]

but it wasn't a fallacy... reductio ad absurdum is extending a hypothetical chain of results until it's ridiculous, but I presented a double standard that would occur...

 

[Shadic]

One is a universal awful mechanic that punishes a character for attempting to move, the others are not.

 

[Flayl]

Akaku, you could look at it as something that was added and not needed. If tripping existed since smash 64 your point would hold more weight. If the next game added random dud smash attacks would you argue against removing those?

Also there's the whole tolerance thing, smashers are capable of tolerating randomness in the outcome of an attack and certain non-damaging aspects of a stage but not when it comes to basic movement. A lot of people use the "turnip threshold" as their limit for allowable randomness - if something's risk or reward over the probability of it happening exceeds that of Peach's Down B in Melee, the players want to ban it.