Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

[Black Mantis]

your examples explain why tripping is a bad design decision, but don't really explain why hacking the game to remove it is fine. we all know it's a stupid idea/concept but it's part of the game and we have to deal with it.

Removing will help to prove who is the better player.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You know what else'll help prove who the better player is?

Making it so Luigi misfires on every 8th side-b.

Why don't you support hacking the game to enforce that? Seems hypocritical to me.

 

[Black Mantis]

Random factors that only impact specific characters only impact those characters. Tripping impacts all characters.

ex. In Marvel Phoenix Wright gathering evidence is random. He can get good evidence and bad. That only impacts him and no other character.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I argue from consistency and proving who the better player is. Imagine if their is tripping and street fighter and i play Daigo in bracket. If he trips into my ultra and I win against him does that make me a better player than Daigo?

The problem with this is that Tripping is too rare for it to be enough of a true issue for us to find it worth hacking.

But you're also 100% ignoring the double standard that comes with it. We are changing gameplay illegally because people can't handle a rare instance of luck. If we change that, guess we can't use Peach's Turnips, Mr. Game & Watch's Judgment, or King DeDeDe's Waddle Dee Throw. Because it's luck.

Not only do we not depend on tripping to win, it barely actually gives out free wins. It cannot be legally turned off and needs to be dealt with by just playing the game. It's as much of a problem as someone getting pins and needles. Or is treated the same. You play the game and continue on. Like everybody else.

Another thing is that there's absolutely no way to turn off-tripping within the original game itself. Thus, we still go into the issue of no longer playing the actual Brawl game. It's a hack, and directly affects gameplay. We must change other characters or stages if we do this. When it comes to any cheats, there is no such thing as a small difference. Every difference makes it another game. No Tripping is exactly the same as having Stages stay on their default settings. They make gameplay different without using what we're allowed to do.

I'd like to remind you that we don't even own the data on the disc, so unless we change data using the in-game options, we're claiming we own it by using hacks. This is not hard to explain, but simply put, we are messing with Nintendo's IP, which is illegal, btw.

Random factors that only impact specific characters only impact those characters. Tripping impacts all characters.

The lip of Final Destination makes it hard to recover and affects all characters. Should we ban that stage? It has just as much effect on gameplay, after all.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Random factors that only impact specific characters only impact those characters. Tripping impacts all characters.

ex. In Marvel Phoenix Wright gathering evidence is random. He can get good evidence and bad. That only impacts him and no other character.

Right... You're gonna need to justify this because at the moment you are basically saying "Nah, its different because it is".

Why should we treat character-specific randomness differently to global randomness? Both have the possibility of changing results and making it so the better player doesn't win.

 

[Black Mantis]

What's more important? The system of the game or characters? They system of the game is more important than the characters.

 

[Black Mantis]

The lip of Final Destination makes it hard to recover and affects all characters. Should we ban that stage? It has just as much effect on gameplay, after all.

That's not random though.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You're awful at this, you know.

This has nothing to do with importance. We are trying to make the game as competitive as we can, right? Competitiveness, in this case, doesn't care about arbitrary distinctions like "characters" or "system", it only cares about the end result: Is the better player winning.

Both the Luigi change and the tripping change would make it more likely for the better player to win.

 

[Black Mantis]

You're awful at this, you know.

This has nothing to do with importance. We are trying to make the game as competitive as we can, right?

And how does randomly falling down and losing control of your character good for competition?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

What's more important? The system of the game or characters? They system of the game is more important than the characters.

No, they're both equally important. The way we play, who we play, the stages we play on, they're all PART of the game. You cannot change one without changing the other. You're applying a very bad double standard.

Double Standards are bad and always will be. They are completely unacceptable. If you remove tripping, you MUST make the courses more usable(by keeping them neutral), and you MUST fix moves that don't work properly. Otherwise the hacks are not worth it.

Likewise, you're very much ignoring that tripping very rarely decides a game. It's not even close to dominating or an actual big problem. Or old data showed less than 1%. At best, maybe it's about 1-5% of the time. That's so freakin' low that it'll rarely decide a match.

You're also ignoring the other reasons why we don't do any gameplay changing hacks. Because it will never end there. You change one gameplay thing, you better change another. But TO's won't agree on every single one, thus, we're all playing different games now. So the consistency, and the purpose of the URC is lost. It's no longer unified.

 

[Black Mantis]

You're also ignoring the other reasons why we don't do any gameplay changing hacks. Because it will never end there. You change one gameplay thing, you better change another. But TO's won't agree on every single one, thus, we're all playing different games now. So the consistency, and the purpose of the URC is lost. It's no longer unified.

Slippery slope.................

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Slippery slope.................

Which WILL happen. If we don't use hacks, people cannot try to manipulate the game and make it completely different.

And what about people who get their Wii bricked by accident or screw up putting in the code? Is that a good thing? You ain't going to screw up your Wii by playing without codes.

Sorry, but you cannot ignore the problem it creates. Consistency is shot when we use hacks. Consistency is what makes tourneys good. Everybody is following the same ruleset. It won't happen if we use hacks since too many players do not wish to do this.

Also, the point ain't randomness. The point is that it's something that screws over characters because of something that affects gameplay. If we remove tripping, we have to remove anything that creates problems with gameplay. If tripping can be removed, Final Destination can be banned too. It's the same situation entirely.

Both affect gameplay. It does not matter if it's a trip, a stage, or a character part. They all affect gameplay and should be treated the same. That's our point with the Double Standard.

In addition, every part of my reply you refuse to reply to concedes that point. Don't cherrypick. Answer it all.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

You're awful at this, you know.

The psychout

 

[Black Mantis]

Which WILL happen. If we don't use hacks, people cannot try to manipulate the game and make it completely different.

It's already been stated that as long as the line is drawn at tripping then it's acceptable.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

It's already been stated that as long as the line is drawn at tripping then it's acceptable.

Then it's acceptable to make neutral settings for every moving course. There is no line to be drawn. People will push to go farther and it will happen. The line is drawn with zero problems with no hacks. Because you cannot make a double standard here. No hacks is no hacks. Stupid/bad rules can happen and will happen sometimes. Look at the LGL. It's why people push just as arbitary rules. People will not give up. It doesn't work that way.

Take a look at how many polls it took to get Meta Knight banned, for a very good example of this. Every single poll had the majority against him. All of them.

But not the context; If pushed enough, it can happen. You cannot use any excuse to not allow Ganondorf to be buffed since we removed tripping. The excuses fail because of the Double Standard. What is a fallacy is strictly believing that people will never push to make the game better.

And we can do that without using a single code. By improving the metagame, not getting ourselves shut down, getting into MLG, removing the LGL. There's always legitimate ways to do it. Hacks aren't one of those.

Once again, reply to this all. Your cherrypicking is severely hurting your case here.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And how does randomly falling down and losing control of your character good for competition?

I dunno, how does it good for competition?

You're missing the point. Its bad for competition, so is Luigi's side-b randomness. Stop being biased just because you don't want to be wrong.

 

[Black Mantis]

Its bad for competition, so is Luigi's side-b randomness.

That only hurts luigi. Every character gets screwed by tripping.

Plus I'm willing to bet money if there was a poll asking if anti-trip should be tourney choice people would overwhelmingly vote against tripping (just like mk).

In fact maybe somebody should do that..........

 

[Grim Tuesday]

That only hurts luigi. Every character gets screwed by tripping.

So?

10char

EDIT: Also, it hurts anyone who plays against Luigi. Not just Luigi.

 

[Black Mantis]

every char>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>1 char

 

[Grim Tuesday]

So you think we should remove tripping because it randomly affects match results.

But you don't think we should fix character-specific moves even though they affect match results to the same degree, just because they don't happen as often?

If there was a character who had a 1 in 1000 chance of automatically winning the game, and another character who always won the game, would you only ban the latter?

 

[Black Mantis]

If there was a character who had a 1 in 1000 chance of automatically winning the game, and another character who always won the game, would you only ban the latter?

Yeah and that character is named metaknight

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That only hurts luigi. Every character gets screwed by tripping.

You skip over the point. It doesn't matter how small or big it is. Both affect gameplay, but are considered the same for changing. We change both, or we change none. That's what a double standard is.

Plus I'm willing to bet money if there was a poll asking if anti-trip should be tourney choice people would overwhelmingly vote against tripping (just like mk).

In fact maybe somebody should do that..........

It's a different situation entirely. MK can be banned without using hacks(that we can't even prove legal and could cost us our entire competitive scene), but not with Tripping. They're severely different situations. You say MK will cost us our competitive scene? That would be true if we didn't start getting better turnouts already. We also get a better competitive scene as is.

People will not always play hacks either. Many will leave if it became the standard, if we're lucky enough to not get it shut down. You seem to not take into account that a hacking tournament is not likely to ever work. That is, more than some random ones. Venues do indeed read the rules. If they know that they could get in severe trouble from Nintendo because of allowing a tournament with hacks, they wouldn't take the chance.

Hacks kills the scene way more than MK banned ever will. They're not even comparable. We also have four types of Tourneys from the URC. MK Singles, MK Doubles, No MK Singles, No MK Doubles. There you go. We have four actual consistent tourneys that keep everybody happy as is. It's too bad that we ever had to get that far, but I honestly blame the horribly designed LGL. But unless you want an explanation of why it's bad, it isn't needed.

 

[Black Mantis]

Alot of people have no knowledge of hacks. You don't even have to hack your wii. Hacks can be put on sd cards.

There have been brawl+ and project m tourneys before.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

And so, another person falls into the trap of thinking that it is more important to prove themselves right than to just see they've made a mistake and drop it.

A crying shame.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

This argument is very important

Look, if you like tripping then just find one of the 5 wiis at your tournament with it off and play there.

 

[Black Mantis]

And so, another person falls into the trap of thinking that it is more important to prove themselves right than to just see they've made a mistake and drop it.

A crying shame.

It's about consistency. If I beat Justin Wong in match (if marvel had tripping in it) because of a trip does that make me better than Justin Wong?

 

[Browny]

Well it most certainly doesnt make you worse than him.

So take from that what you will.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Alot of people have no knowledge of hacks. You don't even have to hack your wii. Hacks can be put on sd cards.

You're putting third party content not approved by Nintendo on those cards. If you don't call them hacks, they're still cheat codes and are loaded the exact same way as any other cheats using a disc and a memory card. There is zero difference in the context of things. Which is the key part.

There have been brawl+ and project m tourneys before.

Congratulations on assuming. What you don't get is that they're not a standard ruleset consistently used. They're all side events in general. The URC does not approve them and made it clear they will not run any tourneys that change the gameplay around. They only allow Textures/Infinite Replay since it has no gameplay effect whatsoever, and helps them a bit. That way we can see if people were cheating. But it still has no effect on the gameplay itself, which is the only reason we find it acceptable. And guess what? Not every TO even allows any codes. And for good reasons. Which have been repeated quite a lot. In here.

Are you still going to completely ignore our others reasons, or the fact that the main tourneys do NOT accept gameplay changes with codes? Here's something to think about; These are all cheat codes. Codes can indeed make a game better or worse. No lie about that. But it's still cheating no matter how you look at it. It's just considered acceptable to some.

And the MLG argument is key. We atleast have a chance to get back in if we don't use Hacks. We kill it(and a lot of other venues and popularity). Most don't even know Hacks aren't terribly dangerous. And they're not going to do the research either. Why would they waste money to go to a tourney to play a game they didn't buy? Why should they have to spend 20 dollars on some item when they may not even understand how to implement the hacks? The money's better spent on snacks, gas money, and putting money into the tournament. Or a good controller.

There's too many reasons to not use hacks, and only one reason to use ONE. The cons severely outweigh the pros.

 

[WindMajor]

If I could turn off tripping through some Vs. Mode setting already found in Brawl, then I would do it in a heartbeat.

 

[Black Mantis]

Are you still going to completely ignore our others reasons, or the fact that the main tourneys do NOT accept gameplay changes with codes?

It's already been stated that France has no-trip enforced.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If I could turn off tripping through some Vs. Mode setting already found in Brawl, then I would do it in a heartbeat.

As would I. I would love to legally(or atleast what we can say is legal and not even have a single chance of being shut down by Nintendo) remove a terribly designed mechanic.

Some problems with the earlier argument between MK and Tripping.

1) Tripping rarely affects match-ups.
2) MK severely overcentralizes the actual Brawl tourneys, meaning it has enough to be considered as a truly legitimate problem. Tripping is not huge enough to be more than an annoyance.
3) Even MK mains and anti-ban agree MK is just that damn good. Even if they don't think he's broken(which is understand if they don't)
4) Sure, both have a negative impact on gameplay. We can choose not to play MK. We cannot choose to take out Tripping. The only thing we can do with hacks is to nerf MK(and bump up other characters/nerf some, so the double standard doesn't exist) and remove tripping. But if we have to use codes to improve the game, and the legality is QUESTIONABLE at best, is it THAT good of an idea?)

I'm all for having fun. I have no problem with fun. But I like having fun where I won't have a chance of being sued or my tourney being taken down. Let's also note that the hacked tourneys have no stickies, so a random Nintendo employee isn't going to notice it any time soon. If you think they don't ever visit this board, you're wrong. They check everywhere. But since hacked tourneys aren't sticked, it's beyond less notable, and won't kill our chances.

It's already been stated that France has no-trip enforced.

And nowhere else. That's not a standard, as is. A standard would be almost all tourneys or universal. Why doesn't any other country/state do this?

 

[Black Mantis]

All game developers develop games to make money. My point is that no other fighting game community is so dissatisfied with the product that they have to mod it to make it viable.

No other modern fighting game community has a developer that doesn't give a **** about it's product, and seems to actively hate it's community.

As an example, AkSys and Capcom both do occasional location tests and rebalances to their fighters. This is known as "standing behind your product and making it more competitive". Since Nintendo refuses, I fail to see why the community shouldn't pick up their slack.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

Ik florida has jumped on the no tripping bandwagon. We've had several tourneys where we made sure every wii had no tripping by soft hacking(which does nothing to the wii) and posting on the tourney thread to make sure ppl who are bringing setups adds the code.

and he's from florida

 

[BSP]

How about just leaving tripping/no tripping to the TO?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Nintendo cannot do DLC. If they could, they would. There's zero point to bring that up since it doesn't count. I'd like to note that Capcom does the balancing while watching other tourneys and to see problems. Nintendo does not do this.

But once again, it's not consistently done. Two stages/countries out of the rest of the world does NOT make it a standard. All you've shown is that some do it, taking a major chance as is.

Also, answer my actual points. Stop paraphrasing stuff that only shows some are okay with it.

You're trying to make it the standard. You have to convince us everybody would be willing to do it. A select few(out of them all) doing it proves nada. In fact, it works against you as is. Why? The hackers are the anti-ban, and the minority. You need to appeal to the majority. Try again.

@BSP: Doesn't work when it's an URC tournament. They specify no hacking. A random TO, fine. But this rule is trying to be put up as the standard. So it needs to make sure the standard, being the URC, approves of it.

 

[Kawaii Poyo]

Dunno if this has already been mentioned or not, I haven't looked through this thread enough to know but...

The anti tripping code not only affects the ratio of you tripping after a dash, it also alters the ratio of moves that have trip percentage changes (usually tilts). I remember I experimented with the code and replays in 2008 when the code was new and some replays that had no dash tripping but still trips from tilting didn't have the trip in the replay when watched with the code on. Same with replays that had the code on and did or didn't have trips after a tilt, it would be different when watched without the code.

It's a game mechanic that should simply not be changed. Even IF it was fine to remove random dash tripping (which is very debatable), messing with that ratio also messes with the ratio of trips that moves can cause which people do use in tournament (like comboing off MK's d-tilt trip, etc). People use those reliably to win tournament sets, so for that reason I believe the code should be banned.

 

[Black Mantis]

Ok well somebody start a poll asking the community should we ban tripping then?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I didn't even know that. Wow, it's worse than I thought. I don't think I'd even bother with this code then, as that would hurt characters' metagames too.

@Black Mantis: I think we had a poll before, and it got locked due to hacks not being allowed by the URC in general, thus, is invalid for becoming a standard.

Nobody is actually saying it couldn't be a good tourney. But we've already proven more than once that it causes trouble. And Kawaii Popo just put the final nail in the coffin. It severely changes gameplay now.

 

[Black Mantis]

@Black Mantis: I think we had a poll before, and it got locked due to hacks not being allowed by the URC in general, thus, is invalid for becoming a standard.

thread please??????

 

[The Ben]

Removing will help to prove who is the better player.

No it wouldn't. Tripping is part of Brawl, if you remove tripping you're not even playing Brawl.

 

[Black Mantis]

Justin Wong argument....................