Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

[BSP]

No it wouldn't. Tripping is part of Brawl, if you remove tripping you're not even playing Brawl.

I get where you're coming from with this, but at the same time, if a TO decided to support no tripping, I doubt people wouldn't show because it "isn't brawl"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Justin Wong argument....................

Doesn't work. You lost because of a natural part of the game. You cannot call johns on that. That's complaining because of that one rare you got hurt. You're making a huge deal over a rare situation.

And I said "I think there might be a poll." There wasn't, or it was deleted, perhaps.

I'm fine with having a poll. In addition, this topic is an actual poll without the option. Because we don't want a tally, we want the information and reasons.

And as someone who's gone through this entire thread, nobody has proven that hacks are completely okay for everyone

@BSP: Purists and people who consider hacks as cheat codes(well, they are exactly the same) will. We get more turnouts playing the regular game than the hacked tourneys as is. It's because players will not cheat to win. It also sets the idea that nothing is wrong with cheating in general, or that we own the game and can do anything we want with it.(which we don't, obviously)

 

[Gea]

I think it's silly that the legality and "SD cards could bring cheating" arguments are brought up in some posts admitting to turning a blind eye to things like infinite replay, texture hacks, and music hacks.

Besides their impact on the game (which I could argue that texture hacks do have an impact on the visibility of matches, but whatever.), these codes fall to the same arguments used for tripping. I'm not particularly for an anti-trip code because if you're going to do that, why not do things like fix stages and "patch" the game? However, don't post and say you need the HBC (you don't) or that people will start cheating due to SD card usage when these risks are already very present at major events in the community.

 

[Black Mantis]

Doesn't work. You lost because of a natural part of the game. You cannot call johns on that.

So because the game decided to randomly punish me I deserve to lose? That doesn't make sense.

 

[Gea]

Who says you would have won if you hadn't tripped?

Edit: Sets are played instead of single matches for a reason, you know.

 

[Black Mantis]

Who says you would have won if you hadn't tripped?

If I lose it should be because he's a better player and I got outplayed.
That's how every fighting game works.
No other fighting game has a random mechanic where you can lose a match because of it (and if they do its char specific).

 

[Gea]

No you're right, but there are many unfair factors in every fighting game. Things like port priority, or even what side of the screen you are on. Someone always slightly gets an advantage in games just for being player 1 or starting on the ground instead of platforms or playing a specific color (Green Falcon in Melee is very very slightly smaller).

The other player has just as much of a risk to trip as you do. Just as much of one to lose the match because of it as you. In the long run, tripping does not decide who wins a tournament. We don't play one stock best of one.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

I think it's silly that the legality and "SD cards could bring cheating" arguments are brought up in some posts admitting to turning a blind eye to things like infinite replay, texture hacks, and music hacks.

You do realize many players request all hacks off anyway. None of those literally affect the gameplay. Any texture that could have an effect gets removed anyway.

And you do realize that they're literally cheat codes, right? A code using a device to manipulate the game is what a cheat device is. We're using the SD Card as a cheat device in general. It does promote actual cheating. We call it acceptable since we're not using a named Cheat Device. It's a myth. There is no literal difference between them. Exact same concept. It works slightly differently, but it's still the same.

Besides their impact on the game (which I could argue that texture hacks do have an impact on the visibility of matches, but whatever.), these codes fall to the same arguments used for tripping. I'm not particularly for an anti-trip code because if you're going to do that, why not do things like fix stages and "patch" the game? However, don't post and say you need the HBC (you don't) or that people will start cheating due to SD card usage when these risks are already very present at major events in the community.

No, because they are not changing literal gameplay itself. A texture is not a patch either, and does not count as one. Patches actually fix gameplay, balance characters, remove/add items, or even moves. None of the allowed hacks(that you listed) have any actual gameplay effect.

Likewise, many think only Music and Infinite Replay should ever be allowed. That have zero effect on the physical gameplay itself.

 

[Gea]

You kind of ignored the point. In fact, you straight up ignored me saying that they didn't directly impact gameplay. However you brought up many additional reasons that are complete and total bunk if you think texture hacks and infinite replay are acceptable.

 

[Black Mantis]

No you're right, but there are many unfair factors in every fighting game.

Name a random unfair factor in Street Fighter that compares to tripping?

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

You kind of ignored the point. In fact, you straight up ignored me saying that they didn't directly impact gameplay. However you brought up many additional reasons that are complete and total bunk if you think texture hacks and infinite replay are acceptable.

What impacts does Infinite Replays and Custom Music have on gameplay? I even said Texture Hacks CAN affect gameplay overall.

We are against hacks that actually change gameplay in itself(like no Tripping). We ignore those only because they have any effect.

Read what's actually been said, not what you think was said.

I never said it was acceptable to have any hacks, now did I? No, of course I didn't. They should not ever become standardized. Not one example have I talked about was a single hack that has zero effect on gameplay. Changing moves, nerfing characters, removing a gameplay element.

If you notice, I am against changing actual gameplay elements. While I'm personally against any and all codes using in tournaments, I am someone who can compromise, as long as it doesn't make any effect on the outcome of the match. But I know I wouldn't run these kind of tourneys either. Why? Because people can sneak in codes that DO effect gameplay if we allow it. It isn't always about one reason. There's just many cons no matter what that makes hacks unacceptable in competitive gameplay.

We've named a ton of reasons. Multiple times.

This is the compromise ever given: If it doesn't affect gameplay, sure. Tripping is an effect on gameplay, and is pointed out, it does more than remove the random tripping, it affects characters' actual moves. That makes the hack even more unacceptable than it already was.

 

[Gea]

Whelp, done with this thread. People's reading comprehension skills suck it. Have fun, folks.

fyi

It's a different situation entirely. MK can be banned without using hacks(that we can't even prove legal and could cost us our entire competitive scene), but not with Tripping. They're severely different situations. You say MK will cost us our competitive scene? That would be true if we didn't start getting better turnouts already. We also get a better competitive scene as is.

People will not always play hacks either. Many will leave if it became the standard, if we're lucky enough to not get it shut down. You seem to not take into account that a hacking tournament is not likely to ever work. That is, more than some random ones. Venues do indeed read the rules. If they know that they could get in severe trouble from Nintendo because of allowing a tournament with hacks, they wouldn't take the chance.

Hacks kills the scene way more than MK banned ever will. They're not even comparable. We also have four types of Tourneys from the URC. MK Singles, MK Doubles, No MK Singles, No MK Doubles. There you go. We have four actual consistent tourneys that keep everybody happy as is. It's too bad that we ever had to get that far, but I honestly blame the horribly designed LGL. But unless you want an explanation of why it's bad, it isn't needed.

Read what you posted. If you somehow think that these things are limited to in-match gameplay changes, you're kidding yourself.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Whelp, done with this thread. People's reading comprehension skills suck it. Have fun, folks.

I read that as: I have no further comments than to attack people.

Read what you posted. If you somehow think that these things are limited to in-match gameplay changes, you're kidding yourself.

Read what I actually posted. That's one reason VENUES might not do it. Players might not care unless it has an actual effect on the match.

It hasn't become a standard because of players not liking to play with codes, purists, people sneaking in buff/debuff hacks, and Venues not wanting to get arrested.(or have the chance to)

Players don't often do it because they want a match that is exactly the same as playing Brawl. Music does not effect gameplay whatsoever as any player can turn the sound off and play their own. Infinite Replays does not actual affect the match. They're questionable, some find it okay. Does it make it okay? Not really, but that's purely subjective, and they know it has no effect on gameplay, and thus, won't change any of the match whatsoever.

If hacks are changing an outcome of a match, then there's definitely a problem. People fear this, and for good reasons, as a TO can lie and put No Tripping(for example) on without telling us, thus, changing the outcome of the tournament. This is the exact opposite of our goal with playing the game is too. We want to make a better game within the official rules. Hacks can't do that since they're not official, and guess what, the legality of them is extremely questionable.

It's not the fact of No Tripping whatsoever. People would choose that button right away. It's the gameplay changing hacks(and No Tripping changes a lot more than just people not tripping that much as it affects people's tripping attacks too) that are instantly a problem, especially when they're worse than we thought. Let's also keep in mind that the other problem is that we can't legally patch the game either. So, you know, breaking the law is such a great way to get players and venues, right?

You're not reading the context of the double standard either. The double standard is that if we allow one gameplay-changing hack, we should allow them all. If it's not gameplay-changing, it is not affected by the double standard.

 

[Black Mantis]

Still waiting for someone to name a random mechanic in street fighter.................

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Still waiting for someone to name a random mechanic in street fighter.................

Please tell me when this game was named Street Fighter. Oh, wait, it's not. Randomness has been part of Smash from the start. You can't turn it all of. Some will exist, and it's part of the game.

Don't compare Smash to Street Fighter, especially when they have barely a single thing in common.

 

[Black Mantis]

Please tell me when this game was named Street Fighter. Oh, wait, it's not. Randomness has been part of Smash from the start. You can't turn it all of. Some will exist, and it's part of the game.

you can turn off items and we have a stagelist for a reason
try again

 

[The Ben]

But turning items off is an in-game option and the game doesn't do anything to force you to play on certain stages. Getting rid of tripping is not a thing in game.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

you can turn off items and we have a stagelist for a reason
try again

And you can't turn off tripping. Therefore, it doesn't count. If we can turn it off, we'll do so. If we can't, we can't.

You can ban characters in Street Fighter, but if it had randomness, you can't turn it off either.

You cannot get rid of randomness in Smash. Characters have randomness built-in. It's part of them. Luigi, Peach, King DeDeDe, Mr. Game & Watch. You can't turn the randomness off there either. It's not an option.

No matter what, unless it's an option in-game, you cannot turn it off. You can choose to remove stuff by not selecting it, but that's completely it. You can choose not to select a character, so a banning works. But you can't remove a character's move, so that does not work. Do you understand now? We cannot turn off tripping or character randomness without exploiting Nintendo's data. But we can ban character, items, stages, and tactics without doing that. That's where the line is drawn. If you can do it within 100% legal mean(or legit), then it can be done. It does mean we should do it all, but we have the right to choose that.

I can run a tourney with only select few items, stages and certain characters banned. I am not manipulating any part of the game outside of the game's in-game options. Thus, I'm not breaking the law, or doing anything that changes gameplay either. Not in the way hacks do, atleast.

Let me be more clear: No matter what game you play, changing the gameplay around outside of in-game options is cheating within the game. Using broken tactics is not cheating. Why? Because it's allowed within the game itself. If you have to use a third party device to change the game, it's automatically a cheat. It's true some video games have built-in cheats as well.(Mortal Kombat Trilogy for example) But guess what? They're banned too. All of them most of the time. Timer? Well, games have to finish within a reasonable amount of time. Auto-Combos? Hell, no, that's blatant cheating.

This applies for any game that you can input cheats from any screen. Whether built-in or using a third party device, they are never acceptable.

Think of it this way; If you need to cheat to win, then you're no longer playing by the rules themselves. And pretty much any competitive ruleset has "no cheating" as an unwritten rule. If we need to write it, then there's a problem right there. It does not need to be written, because everybody knows cheating isn't allowed.

 

[Akaku94]

I thought about reposting a bunch of points I've already made in this thread, then I thought about it again and decided that... that's a great idea.

Many characters dash rarely, if at all; that means that they don't have to deal with tripping; characters like ICs or Falco, who dash a lot, do deal with it; dashing is a risk that you take...

Simply put, tripping is part of Brawl whether we like it or not. We tolerate it just like we tolerate other things we may not like, because Brawl is what it is.

If the game gives us the option to do something, we have the obligation to do so if it makes the game more competitive. Items can be turned off, team attack can be turned on, we can pick stages however we want (if it's my turn to choose, I can pick random if I want; there's just always a better option), and it is completely possible to NOT PICK a character or stage. There is no option in Brawl to turn off tripping, no way to avoid tripping besides not dashing. It is possible within the game mechanics to quit the match and decide it through whatever timeout clause is agreed upon in the rules. Everything you mentioned is doable (and being done) through the game's mechanics with no need to hack, mod, or make any change to the game itself; in doing these things we are merely acting upon the options given to us by Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

Once we change a single bit of the game artificially, we are no longer playing Brawl, but an idealized version of our own making. As Grim pointed out, once we artificially change the game to make it more competitive in one aspect, we are obligated to improve the game in other ways through the same method. I'm sure a Ganon-buff is as readily available as no-tripping, and it would undoubtedly make the game more competetive, but that doesn't mean we should do it!

Changing the game is all well and good, provided it is done within the confines of the game itself. Once we have to artificially modify the game in any way, shape, or form, we cross the line.

tl;dr, 3 Main Reasons Against:

1) Tripping is a risk/reward scenario that you take by dashing. Some take it more than others, and thus to remove it would artificially buff characters that dash more.
2) Hacking the game once to change one aspect of the game's mechanics obligates you to do the same in countless other circumstances; double standards would be created.
3) Removing tripping causes the game to cease to be Brawl, but rather our hacked version of Brawl. In order to play a hacked Brawl that's more "fair", go play one of the fully hacked versions out there like B+

 

[Grim Tuesday]

1st reason falls flat. Every change to the game's rules arbitrarily buffs and nerfs characters from the current "standard".

 

[Strong Badam]

Removing will help to prove who is the better player.

But you're no longer playing Super Smash Bros. Brawl. You're playing SSBB - tripping. Removing it, you'd probably have a more competitive game; the better player will win ever so slightly more often. But unfortunately in Brawl, dealing with random trips is part of the skill of the game.

The problem with removing tripping is then 1. you're not playing Brawl anymore and 2. Why not go further? Fix the starting position of Smashville's platform, remove Misfire, random turnips, DDD's doos, G&W's hammer, make Yoshi's Island's platform move on a timer, etc. Tripping isn't even the most offensive random occurrence in the game and you're proposing to remove it. It just opens up a lot of double standards.

 

[Flayl]

Still waiting for someone to name a random mechanic in street fighter.................

http://sonichurricane.com/articles/sf2randomness.html

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

1st reason falls flat. Every change to the game's rules arbitrarily buffs and nerfs characters from the current "standard".

Except for the part that we're changing the rules within the game, something that we're legally allowed to do.

It's more complicated than that. Context is very key here.

And the only key rule that specifically does that so far is LGL. Although some stages do too, but atleast we can do it without rewriting the game itself, right?

 

[theunabletable]

But you're no longer playing Super Smash Bros. Brawl. You're playing SSBB - tripping. Removing it, you'd probably have a more competitive game; the better player will win ever so slightly more often. But unfortunately in Brawl, dealing with random trips is part of the skill of the game.

This is a mindset that plagues the forum community.

If we play Brawl, we are always playing Brawl. Playing it in a different way doesn't suddenly mean we're playing a literally different game (not exactly what you're saying, and I'll address that everything in a moment).

We can play a game however we want. We could play competitive Brawl by playing in the single player mode, seeing who can get through the fastest (which some people do. There have been Melee and Brawl single player races on SRL, it can certainly be competitive). We could host tournaments with the in-game tournament mode. We could play with items.

We don't call the game SSBB - items, tournament mode, single player, Jungle Japes, etc. We call the game we play "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" because, well for one, that's what the game is. But that's also what the community has chosen to call the game we play, the modes we play, the ruleset with items off that we play. Being the best at Super Smash Bros Brawl could legitimately entail being the best at Target Smash (which some people strive to be).

The game we're playing is only called "Super Smash Bros. Brawl" because that's what we've decided to name it. We could have named competitive 1v1s in Super Smash Bros. Brawl with 3 stocks, 8 minutes, no items, with pause off whatever we want to name it, and we chose Super Smash Bros. Brawl.

So, no, "in Brawl, dealing with random trips is part of the skill of the game," is untrue. A more correct thing to say would be, "In the game that we as a community have decided to play, which we choose to call Brawl, dealing with random trips is part of the skill of that game."

The problem with removing tripping is then 1. you're not playing Brawl anymore

It's as much Brawl as Brawl+TIO for running tournaments is.

All this statement really says is "If you change this, you're no longer playing with what we were playing with before it was changed," which is a bit redundant lol.

2. Why not go further? Fix the starting position of Smashville's platform, remove Misfire, random turnips, DDD's doos, G&W's hammer, make Yoshi's Island's platform move on a timer, etc. Tripping isn't even the most offensive random occurrence in the game and you're proposing to remove it. It just opens up a lot of double standards.

Why not do these things?

If the entire community wanted to do those things, we would be foolish not to do them, just for the sake of, literally, playing the same game that we were before they were changed.

The issue isn't that those things are flawed, we can do those things if we want. But there is NO community push towards those things.

If the reason for getting rid of tripping is that the community feels that competition will thrive best without tripping, then it's completely ridiculous to bring up analogies of things the community DOESN'T want.

"The community wants this," "Well the community having this is a bad idea. Wanna know why? Because the community doesn't want these other things!"



Now I'm perfectly willing to have a discussion on whether or not hacking the game is, in effect, any different, but we would have to decide that as our discussion. The things I responded to are incorrect whether hacking the game is different or not.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

That's where you're wrong. It's not ever the same game of Brawl once we use hacks. We bought the game called Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Everything out of the box is that game.

The second we add third-party stuff that specifically was not meant to be in the game, it becomes a completely different game no matter how small the item is.

Every hack makes it a different game than the intended product. And always will. It's not because of cheat codes, it's because you cannot call a game that you create the same game as what the creator's created and intended. They intended us to use the in-game options however we want. And hacks aren't one of those.

In fact, an in-game cheat code is still playing the original game as is. Why? The creators intended for us to be able to use it. But when we use hacks, it's a whole nother kettle of fish.

It becomes Brawl + Hacks, no matter what variable hack is used. I explained before that not every hack will affect gameplay, and some find those acceptable. It's still not the real game of Brawl, but it's TOLERABLE enough. No Tripping is already going too far. It affects gameplay severely. Texture Hacks may be going too far since it can have an effect on gameplay, but not always. Music rarely does, and Infinite Replay has zero effect on gameplay.

It's not what the community wants in this case. It's what the TO's have to decide on their own. Hacks do come with fears, and possible deadly consequences, ones that the risk is not worth it. Screwing up the system with a bad download, getting shut down by Nintendo, losing players... we're losing barely anyone with the MK ban, and are getting more people back, so the ratio shows it's indeed better for the community.

As for No Tripping, when it actually makes some characters' moves act differently, it is DEFINITELY going too far.

As for hacks, of course they're a problem for many reasons. They're also a poor excuse to think that we should ever hack the game, or have the right to(cause, you know, we can't legally, or you cannot prove it legally, since it's at best questionable). I implore people to look more at the legal implications than most things.

Is No Tripping good for the community? I would say that if it can be made without affecting a single character's move{which is not the case), then yes.

And one of the biggest reasons people don't push it is that fear of being shut down is a pretty damn good reason. Risks are not worth taking here, especially if we don't win the case. Why get Nintendo on us or take the chance they'll shut down this messageboard? Is it really that worth it? I don't think so. It's actually a very bad idea. Of course, that's why we aren't going to make it the entire standard.(if a country or a state does it, great, but that is just a small part of the world, and does not reflect what the majority will do)

And by going further than No Tripping(which goes too far as is), we're admitting that we're no longer bothering to play Brawl, just something named it, but not the actual copy we bought.

 

[theunabletable]

That's where you're wrong. It's not ever the same game of Brawl once we use hacks. We bought the game called Super Smash Bros. Brawl. Everything out of the box is that game.

I addressed this:

Now I'm perfectly willing to have a discussion on whether or not hacking the game is, in effect, any different, but we would have to decide that as our discussion. The things I responded to are incorrect whether hacking the game is different or not.

If you'd like to discuss that, let me know, and we'll discuss that specifically. Not some conglomeration of a bunch of different mixed together definitions and points and intentions lol, we won't get anywhere like that.

I'm fine with having a discussion on the merits of adding hacks, and whether that's, in practice, different from anything else, at a fundamental, relevant level. Let's just be really clear on both sides that that's what we're discussing, alright?

Is No Tripping good for the community? I would say that if it can be made without affecting a single character's move{which is not the case), then yes.

Oh that's really convenient, because they can do that. The removal of random tripping ONLY reduces your chance of randomly tripping on a dash or a pivot to 0%.

So no one's moves get affected by the removal of random tripping, bananas still trip, dtilts still trip, and stuff like that

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

If you'd like to discuss that, let me know, and we'll discuss that specifically. Not some conglomeration of a bunch of different mixed together definitions and points and intentions lol, we won't get anywhere like that.

Except they're the key reason why people don't do it. I don't expect players to use hacks by default. For whatever reason. They think it could screw up their Wii, they abhore cheating, they only want to play the pure version of Brawl, they don't want to get in trouble with Nintendo, they're law purists, and maybe other reasons.

I'm fine with having a discussion on the merits of adding hacks, and whether that's, in practice, different from anything else, at a fundamental, relevant level. Let's just be really clear on both sides that that's what we're discussing, alright?

It was the entire discussion here. People have made it clear that tripping sucks and nobody is against it being gone. What they don't like the HACKS.

Oh that's really convenient, because they can do that. The removal of random tripping ONLY reduces your chance of randomly tripping on a dash or a pivot to 0%.

So no one's moves get affected by the removal of random tripping, bananas still trip, dtilts still trip, and stuff like that

Read the earlier posts in the thread please. It doesn't work that way. All of that is lessened(except perhaps the Bananas) with the code. It does actually effect them too, which is why we can't use the code unless that's fixed, because that's a lot more severe than never tripping(so like, instead of tripping 2% of the time, it's 0, which is a small change in gameplay, albeit, just enough to call shenanigans.), since it DOES affect D-Tilts, etc. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=14026041&postcount=515 Refer to this exact post. So yeah, it's about the same as any major hack to, say, make Luigi always misfire. It affects specific characters more than others.

As for hacking in general, I do not find it a legitimate way to play the original game. As another game, fine. It's not Brawl, but it's based upon it, and that's fine. I do not have a problem with this idea, but it won't ever get Stickied, and thus, the attention it gets will be weakened.

 

[Black Mantis]

http://sonichurricane.com/articles/sf2randomness.html

Ok try the current street fighter cause sf2 isn't popular anymore.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Ok try the current street fighter cause sf2 isn't popular anymore.

Street Fighter II is always popular, boyo. That tournament scene won't die till all the copies stop existing. Turbo, Hyper, whatever. You severely underestimate the fanbase.

Also, cherrypicking again. You did not ask for a random occurance in the latest game, you asked for Street Fighter with randomness. Be specific, or expect answers you don't want.

 

[Black Mantis]

Brawl is the current competitive smash game. Street Fighter 4 ae2010 (thats a long title lol) is the current competitive street fighter. Name a random factor in the current sf game.

 

[-LzR-]

Ok try the current street fighter cause sf2 isn't popular anymore.

Now that is a failure argument >_>
Well, Brawl doesn't matter either because it's not THAT popular, so tripping is fine.

 

[Black Mantis]

Now that is a failure argument >_>

Ok when in the last year have you seen any top players play street fighter 2 in tournament?

edit HD remix doesn't count because thats not the original sf 2

 

[-LzR-]

It's still a Street Fighter though so the argument is valid.

 

[theunabletable]

It was the entire discussion here. People have made it clear that tripping sucks and nobody is against it being gone. What they don't like the HACKS.

Of course that's the issue for a lot of the people, but it's not the ONLY thing that's been said, and wasn't what I actually responded to. I'm fine with discussing it, but make it clear that that is the only thing we're discussing, as it's NOT what I was originally referring to, or talking about.

So, let's start anew. I'll start:

It's fine to remove random tripping, a game hack isn't different in any relevant way from any other change of rules, or from the usage of TIO instead of the in-game tournament mode, for the hosting of tournaments. I'll ask the important question, and you can respond to this whole post by simply answering it.

My question to you is, why is using a hack a bad thing for competition?

It does actually effect them too, which is why we can't use the code unless that's fixed, because that's a lot more severe than never tripping(so like, instead of tripping 2% of the time, it's 0, which is a small change in gameplay, albeit, just enough to call shenanigans.), since it DOES affect D-Tilts, etc. http://www.smashboards.com/showpost....&postcount=515 Refer to this exact post. So yeah, it's about the same as any major hack to, say, make Luigi always misfire. It affects specific characters more than others.

That's the only post you're referring to, or do you have other posts that you're thinking of as well?

Frankly, an anecdotal post that could be subject to many other factors isn't that convincing that we should most definitely not remove tripping lol. It brings up a whole extra set of questions.

Could the desync from the replays he was watching have been caused by the code simply being different? Could it have been a mistake on the part of the person making the post? Perhaps the ratio wasn't changed, but the way the RNG was calculated was different, because it wasn't calculating far less than it would have normally? I don't know if that's a valid concern, but perhaps it should be brought up? And if it affects the ratio for tilt tripping, how much does it affect the ratio by? And does that in itself give any extra reason for banning the removal of tripping?

These are all among the questions that are necessary after that post is given as the main evidence against tripping lol. Although, we will probably get much further if we start with ONLY answering the initial question "Why is using a hack a bad thing for competition?"

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Of course that's the issue for a lot of the people, but it's not the ONLY thing that's been said, and wasn't what I actually responded to. I'm fine with discussing it, but make it clear that that is the only thing we're discussing, as it's NOT what I was originally referring to, or talking about.

Okay.

So, let's start anew. I'll start:

It's fine to remove random tripping, a game hack isn't different in any relevant way from any other change of rules, or from the usage of TIO instead of the in-game tournament mode, for the hosting of tournaments.

Yeah, it kind of is. All those rules we do are within the original coding of the game itself, and was intended to be be used for whatever reason you want. They are unrelated, and only SOUND similar on premise. But the context changes everything. Here's a similar scenario to what you're saying; In any sport, there are rules. Like, let's say, it's alright to tackle a person in Football. But if you punch them, it's definitely against the rules. The similarity is that they're both a form of attacking the other player. What draws the line is that one makes sense for the rules of the game, since it's tackle-based football, while the other is not. I mean, they both damage the guy, right? So it should be fine, right? Well, it's not. Rules only work if they make sense within the design of the game. Football was designed to stop a player from getting the ball or keeping it by tackling them. It goes too far when we allow a rule that has no relation to the game. Of course, it's hard to find a good analogy, but I think you get what my point is, and I admit the analogy is a bit bad. But the factor is; If you cannot change it within the original game's coding, you're using some kind of external device to improve the game(or just yours). A better example is people wearing steel-tipped shoes(that is hidden, by say, paint) in Soccer. They're being given an advantage, that's not only unfair, but borderline breaks the rules.

If it changes the original game that does is not done within the game itself, there's a problem. No Tripping cannot be used within the original game, and thus, is not part of the product either.

I'll ask the important question, and you can respond to this whole post by simply answering it.

My question to you is, why is using a hack a bad thing for competition?

Using a hack for competition is admitting you refuse to play the actual real game. There's another thing that they're all cheat codes. So it's literally cheating to win.(being cheap to win, well, sportsmanship is not a requirement. Playing to win at the best of YOUR ability is key, not with the help of any code, no matter how is affected)

Another is if we use one(that specifically affects gameplay), why not do more? The double standard part won't stop being a thing.

That's the only post you're referring to, or do you have other posts that you're thinking of as well?

Frankly, an anecdotal post that could be subject to many other factors isn't that convincing that we should most definitely not remove tripping lol. It brings up a whole extra set of questions.

We should not remove it because it makes it an entire different game. The textures are only tolerable if they don't affect gameplay due to hiding item moves, like say, Snakes C4. Or his Down Smash. That's completely unacceptable. We only tolerate music and infinite replay because they have zero effect on the gameplay itself, of which we're playing. And obviously some music will be turned off if it's really bad(sounds horrible) or horribly offensive. Infinite Replays are by far the only widely approved hack because it has no effect on gameplay in any possible way.

Could the desync from the replays he was watching have been caused by the code simply being different? Could it have been a mistake on the part of the person making the post? Perhaps the ratio wasn't changed, but the way the RNG was calculated was different, because it wasn't calculating far less than it would have normally? I don't know if that's a valid concern, but perhaps it should be brought up? And if it affects the ratio for tilt tripping, how much does it affect the ratio by? And does that in itself give any extra reason for banning the removal of tripping?

We don't know how much it affects it by. And I doubt it has anything to do with the desync either. I would like him/her to come back and explain how much it affects it by. But if it affects more than tripping, it's going way too far and right out the other ear(if you will).

These are all among the questions that are necessary after that post is given as the main evidence against tripping lol. Although, we will probably get much further if we start with ONLY answering the initial question "Why is using a hack a bad thing for competition?"

That's not the main evidence. That's just one part that shows how bad the current code is, not the idea. That's a different situation.

My problem with hacks that affect any part of gameplay, including the player, is that they go way too far by that alone. Not to mention, we have no legal right to do this, anyway. At least according to Nintendo. I wouldn't bring up other communities/companies, because they don't give a crap. So it's unrelated.

Nintendo has always been against manipulating their data for their games. They finally made the EULA so we're not allowed to do that outside of what's in the original game itself. Any codes from the original game they APPROVED. Thus, it's actually illegal for us to use hacks in the first place.

So it's a two-fold part; It's breaking the law(and sorry, but it's pretty much impossible to prove you're not at this point. It just doesn't sound enough for Nintendo to give a crap about.), AND if it becomes the standard, Nintendo WILL recognize it, and go the personal route. BTW, it's not just breaking the law because we're using something not allowed by them(they own the data, not the physical system, keep in mind), it's also the IP problem. We're changing parts of their IP(if Tripping were to only affect actual Tripping and not characters, we MIGHT be fine), thus, breaking the law even more. So why should we break the law to get a slightly better game. Especially since tripping isn't even that often and barely affects matches, anyway. It's like an annoying mosquito that shows up once a week. Not worth worrying about.

You lost a few times because of a bad mechanic? Well, crap happens. Even the idea that we NEED to remove it is flawed. It's not like it happens enough to be worth crying about. I've won and lost matches due to it, but since it was programmed into the game, it's meant to be there and is what makes Brawl, well, Brawl. So if we remove that part, it's no longer Brawl.

It applies the same way with any hacking that affects gameplay. When we do something like that, it becomes a game not named or plays like, well, the original copy.

How often do you see Cheat Device Tourneys? Rarely? What makes hacks any different from these Cheat Devices? Because besides not using a Cartridge or Disc, I can't see one difference whatsoever.

But let's go over some other reasons why they're bad for competitive play, even though they've been brought up before;

1) Less players will use hacks in comparison.
2) It's borderline cheating(once we use No Tripping).
3) There's always the risk of being shut down.
4) There will be no unification, since hacks can always be snuck in, thus, somebody could buff up Ganondorf in one tourney, and not the other, meaning results will be skewed.
5) It's already illegal in the first place.
6) Not everybody even has the money to buy an SD card and practice, or even has a computer outside of a Library. This is all too common. Thus, the best way to play it is with the original disc, since everybody who enters tourneys will have that exact copy, another example of unison.
7) Venues will think it's illegal, and thus, not allow us to run tourneys, hurting the full scene.
8) Just about every Modded tourney is either approved personally by the Company(outside of Brawl), is made the standard by the company itself(or they use the ideas for patches), OR it's not actually illegal. None of these are the current case either.
9) Most of those modded tourneys is either done on a computer(that may not even have an EULA that cares, or once again, the Company gives no crap), or is decided by the community. Smashboards itself has yet to decide that Hacks as a new game is worth it for more than a few fun tourneys.
10) If it becomes a standard, and only then, the risk factor is too high. It's similar to my other reason, but it becoming a standard is the key problem.
11) Purists. Some refuse to play with codes on and will not ever join a tourney like that. I know many people who find cheat codes(which hacks generally are) beyond dark and evil and vile.(overreaction, yes, but that's how they view it)
12) The MLG. We still have a chance to get in there, even with what's we've done, but if we approved No Tripping, we eliminate our entire chance of getting in by 100%. They hosted our tourneys in the past, and they sponsor us. We want more sponsors, and using glorified cheat codes is by far the worst thing we can do at this point.
13) Why stop at No Tripping? Ever? If we can improve one part of the game, we can improve the rest. This is related to the unification point, but no tourney will have the exact same gameplay. It's not perfect right now, due to various rules, but the results are barely different in the end. It's still 3 stocks, most(or all) characters, often an LGL, etc.
14) Why can we not accept the product for what it is? What makes us so special that we need to do something to improve an extremely solid game with parts that nobody likes. That we can't turn off within the game itself, that is.

 

[Strong Badam]

If I lose it should be because he's a better player and I got outplayed.
That's how every fighting game works.
No other fighting game has a random mechanic where you can lose a match because of it (and if they do its char specific).

Again, you explain time and time again why random tripping is a bad game mechanic, yet you haven't proven why it should be hacked to be removed. You chose to compete in Super Smash Bros Brawl; if you're unhappy with it then play another game. You can't just hack it when you don't like something about it. We've already explained approximately eighty million times that doing so creates infinitely many double standards and forced arbitrary changes

Lol it's you against the world it seems, bro.

 

[Black Mantis]

I said that tripping should be removed to help determine who is consistently the better player. France (and certain parts of Florida as mentioned in this thread) have no-trip enforced. Also, the whole double standard thing ties into the slippery slope argument. The line for hacking (in terms of game mechanics) stops at tripping.

 

[Strong Badam]

Remove tripping and you're no longer competing in Super Smash Bros. Brawl for the Nintendo Wii.
Objectively, being able to win with tripping on does mean you are the better player in Super Smash Bros. Brawl, because you are playing Brawl and not some hacked version.

Why does the line stop at tripping? That's just as arbitrary as any other line and has just as much basis.

 

[The Ben]

But tripping is part of Brawl so by removing it you're not determining who is better at Brawl.

 

[tekkie]

alright **** brawl tournaments those are so 2008

ssb:b : no-trip remix is the new thing

so stop pretending like bralw is good because it's bad, man up, google homebrew stuff, ask your mom to teach you how to install it, turn tripping off

Brawl-? garbage. Brawl+? trash.

BRAWL TRIPLESS EDITION IS THE NEW THING

and now that that *******ery is over, do anti-anti-trip proponents have any *real* arguments?