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I wish more people had this mentality.
Why does this matter?
Yep, it's arbitrary.
this is an incredibly vague ban criteria
So?
I'm not even going to bother with this lol
We could use more, it'd be perfectly fine if we did.
Why is that a reason to ban it?
Alright, let's put that debate on the back-burner, then, until we finish this one about the justification of hacks inherently, alright?
It's a huge difference. We are playing Brawl. The Brawl that we bought. Hacks are not Brawl, and never will be Brawl. This applies for all hacks. What we tolerate is of no consequence. It's not Brawl, so you should stop telling yourself you're playing the game you bought when you're not. Because it's lying to yourself.
Kind of like hacks. Oh, wait, same situation. You're adding something that makes it easier to win, which means we're not winning within the rules of the game, but it's just like saying it's alright to use Steroids, something not within the original rules of the game. Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it?
It's all you need. If you can't win without cheating, then you shouldn't be playing with other people or for money. If it's a non-money game, nobody cares. But when money's on the line, I expect honest play, which cheat codes are the exact opposite. BTW, being cheap or using cheap tricks is still honest play as long as you can get away with it. But using a code? Well, far from it. It's downright insulting to players who worked hard to get where they were by using the original game's premise. They had to practice with tripping, and did well still with it on.
If they didn't spend money on Brawl, they wouldn't have wanted to play it. And the "actual real game" is what you bought out of the box. It's what you payed for. Anything else is an utter lie.
So you concede the point then.
Sure, but then it stopped being Brawl already, and a game you created yourself, while using Nintendo's IP and infringing on it. Sounds even worse in the reality of what the situation. Because that's the exact thing that's happening. So no, it was never perfectly fine.
If you admit you're playing something other Brawl, sure.
Too bad that won't happen. Everybody would want more. Consistency is shot because nobody would ever use the same hacks because it's nothing but opinions.
There is no legitimate reason to ban Tripping. It barely affects gameplay, but it's still a major part of it and always will be.
They're impossible to justify overall, though. You have to convince people to justify cheating. And breaking the law.(in two ways) And to no longer play Brawl. You'll never get a majority on this. I mean, if we could do it legally, I think it could happen, but you can't. Thus, it won't work.
Words only have meaning because we give them meaning.
Yeah, this is what I said.
The rules of the game are decided by us, however.
You're saying this as if some people get no tripping, and other people will still get tripping, on a no-tripping Wii lol.
So?
Ugh, no. I thought it was self-evidently ridiculous lol.
What you're doing here, is giving a word a definition, and then using that word in a scenario where that definition doesn't apply, but acting as if it does, to create a connection between the two.
What were the things that were "not perfectly fine" with any of the things that you mentioned?
Alright, we're playing Brawl with no tripping.
I didn't realize that keeping no-tripping as illegal was the one thing standing in the way of Balanced Brawl taking over as the primary game...
If a community wants it banned, then that's a legitimate reason to ban tripping. A lot of people don't like more randomized results.
No, it makes it possible to do moves easier without fear. Kind of like when a person uses something to buff another character. Likewise, it's still a cheat code anyway. That cannot even be denied.How is eliminating tripping equal to cheating? The purpose of getting rid of it is to dispose of a random factor that can cause you to lose. It makes moving around fair for everyone. That sounds like the opposite of cheating to me.
Doesn't make it any more correct no matter how much you believe it. It's not the game we payed for, and never will be. That's not something that can be disputed.
K. The 'lol' thing makes it hard to take you seriously, though. I apologize for that, but it's hard to tell.
Except the context changes everything. Our rules are made using the official game rules. The ONLY rule that actually does not do this is the LGL, but you still don't need to change the coding to do it, so it's tolerable at best.
Yeah, most actually practice on a tripping Wii, and may not be ABLE to get that SD card. Maybe they don't have enough money, maybe it's spent on their car, and they got Brawl from somewhere else. Maybe they're borrowing it from a friend to practice. It's not a feasible solution to expect everyone to practice with hacks either.
Any hack is not fine by any means. Not when we actually break the law to do so. Anyway, stock count, time, these are fine because the game was DESIGNED to be played by changing those.
It's any hack that keeps it from that, people just shrug at Music, Texture, and Infinite Replay because they (almost always) have no effect on gameplay.
Not enough of a legitimate reason. If the TO refuses to do it, and they sometimes will, it won't happen. Majority count only works on influence, but it does not actually decide it on its own. Likewise, what's more random is hacks in general. Not every tournament will play the same hack, and thus, every tournament will be completely standed alone, and the metagame will die because the results will no longer be usable. Data only works if it has something consistent about it, key term being the rule set. If the rule set is different for each game, then the data doesn't work anymore.(I'd add an analogy, but you can make up one for yourself)
2% of the time someone could lose hundreds of dollars randomly?
After tons of hours of playing and zero trips, people will notice. But then again, don't you think lying to the players about this, committing fraud, is even worse? I mean, if they find out, that TO is probably going to go down in flames. False advertising is a serious crime, btw.
It's not up to me to decide if it's correct or not, it's up to you to show that it's a BAD thing to do.
Sorry about that, usually I start throwing in haha's and lol's when I'm trying to seem atleast a LITTLE bit more lighthearted haha
This applies to infinite-replays, and textures as well.
Why?
So? Why does the intention of the game designer have any bearing on how we decide is the best way to play, to allow our community to flourish the most?
I would argue that it's the only legitimate reason there is.
It's bad because it's downright breaking the law, reduces our playerbase, makes us look bad, loses venues, and is downright cheating.
If there's nothing relevant, then there's no way to question a rule. Context is ALWAYS important. But then again, context only works if possible. Hacks are Hacks. In-game options are in-game options. They are 100% unrelated. Their similarities do not really exist.
Yeah... tone of voice matters, as does attitude in a debate. Because it makes it hard for me to imagine if you're serious with this or not. Or if you're just egging me on.
Damn straight.
Because it needs to be proven actually bad in enough situations. Tripping is not severely bad or even overdominating the game. It's just a once-in-a-while annoyance. Like getting a static shock. Do you see somebody making a device that eliminates this? No, because it's beyond rare. That's why.
It does a lot. You say we're playing Brawl, well, we're only playing Brawl if we're playing the copy we bought. We're not playing Brawl anymore by using cheat codes. Because that's not the copy we bought. It's a mod of a game, which is always different from the original.
Because we're making money off of the game called and outlined strictly as Super Smash Bros. Brawl. If we still call it that while putting on hacks, we're acting making money of a mod of Nintendo's product. Now, using hacks on your own is questionable, but making money of someone else's IP, especially after changing it to our whims? That's downright illegal no matter what. Does it mean every company will sue? NO. But Nintendo can and will. And they'll win because we cannot stop them here. When you bought the Wii(and Brawl), you signed a contract saying that you will only play the system and game as intended. That is, anything within the game/system you can do. Likewise, the idea that hacks are legal only apply if we own the data and can do with it as we wish.
So?
Proof? I would argue that in the places that people would use it, it'd be more likely to increase player base.
To whom, to what degree, evidence, and why that would be detrimental?
Proof? And moreso than having textures has?
Nope, and even if you were to circularly define it as such, to the extent that the word "cheating" would lose the meaning it has that indicates something immoral or detrimental, why would that be bad?
Why does that need to be done, if a community would prefer, and grow better, without that analysis? (by this I mean more fundamentally. Of course communities would have discussions over whether banning something would be a good idea for them, so it'll happen every time anyways)
Yes, but why does that matter? Why would it matter if people hosted tournaments like that?
That's a terrible analogy. The technology to remove static shocks (which are significantly less relevant to day-to-day life in the purpose of your analogy than tripping is) doesn't exist in any accessible way.
This is incorrect. We've had 3 and a half years of people using infinite replay hacks at tournaments, and there has not been anything even close to action from Nintendo over this.
It's not my job to prove why anything is a fine thing to do.
It's alright to break the law and get thrown in jail or worse? Yeah, that's pretty bad. Oh, by the way, they can check the Wii to find actual third party data, like these hacks, and make it unplayable. They can also shut down this messageboard? We look bad enough to other Fighting game communities for removing any part of the game. We look even worse by refusing to accept it's not perfect. And then it gets worse when we refuse to play the official game we PURCHASED.
They can't grow better by letting 3rd party devices fix the game for them. They can only grow better through practice and honest hard work. Codes are cutting corners. Now, before you even cite the MK Ban, the context is that we cannot fix the issue through pure practice without cutting tons of things to and putting out rules to make him tolerable. He was the nail in the coffin, and we could either keep variety OR ban him. This is a related situation, to put it simply.
Why are you dashing and pivoting so much? Why can't you jump more often? Hmm? Are people too used to playing like Melee and refuse to accept that Brawl is NOT like Melee? Well, guess what, Brawl is it's own game, Tripping is a part of it, and removing it stops treating it like Brawl and more like some crappy Mod.
Because we're advertising it as Brawl. When it's not Brawl, we're performing false advertisement, also known as Fraud. And that's illegal and can get you in severe trouble. So yeah, it's not Brawl. It's fine if people want to play a separate game from it, but it'll never be Brawl as long as it is modified. Because that's not Brawl.
It's the exact same case here. Using Hacks that are illegal is the same as making a machine through illegal methods to remove it. That's the point of analogy. What is terrible is that people thinking cheating to win is A-Okay.
If they can do it without breaking the law, they sure as hell would. Once again, context in this case.
They've been making downloads that are forced onto the Wii whether through new games, the VC, or Wii Connect 24 to try to get rid of the hacks. They've been fighting against hacking since it first came forth. It's just harder now than it used to be. Trying to hover around the law is a very bad idea in the first place. This is probably the reason why hacked Tourneys don't get stickied, just so it ISN'T noticed by any means.You really need to learn how EULAs work. You've always owned the physical copy and the data. ALWAYS.
You're attempting to change the law to benefit some people who can't stand a very tine annoyance. Yeah, it's your job to prove the law wrong. It's always on you in this case. Right now, the current agreement is to not use hacks for standard tourneys. You need to prove us wrong, not the other way around.
Tell me who you're hurting by doing this. No one. We're infringing on their copyright with hacks, which is hurting them. IP, whatever. I can't even remember the terminology, but that's not the exact point. We are making money off of parodies of their characters. It's illegal because we don't own the characters. This applies in every situation with hacks. We don't own the data, the characters, the gameplay, nothing. But if it's something within the game we purchase, and they say it's alright for us to do with that as we wish(which they find it okay to play the game using the original options, which is a silent but quite clearly intended agreement), then we're fine under all circumstances.
And you're doing a very terrible job at proving them okay. Especially when you're fighting against the law, and we've pointed out why it's more than just having fun. It's downright insulting to the actual creator to manipulate their character and make money off of it. Have you ever thought about that? And who you're hurting?
Loaded question.
Oh I didn't realize there was a Nintendo-hack-checker-squad running around.
Why haven't they yet, despite there being a forum on here solely dedicated to hacking the game?
Oh man, we wouldn't want to ruin our great reputation with the traditional fighting game community :/
You're defining something with a word that's defined as meaning something else, and then treating it as if all the connotations of that "something else" apply to this as well. Once again.
ugh
Nope, not true. You quite simply don't know more about every single community in the world than they all do about themselves.
Oh right, dashing and pivoting doesn't happen at the top level.
I did not ask for proof that that is how EULAs work, I asked for proof that Nintendo would EVER take action against someone for these hacks. "and there has not been anything even close to action from Nintendo over this."
No I'm not I never said this ever.
Answer the the question or concede the point.
Tell the judge that when you get caught.
Wrong. You always leave little bits. I need to get an expert in here that'll explain it. But I know this is bullcrap.
Because the tourneys are not a standard, so little side crap is not worth it to them. But when it becomes huge and is consistently done to the point of most tourneys being run this way, it's not just noticeable, it means they'll go right down to it. Also, did you forget what I said earlier? They've went out of their ways to make update to remove the hacks. Oh, by the way, think of this way; Venues will actually call the cops on people, and get this place shut down. Very few venues, if any, run hacks. People run hacked tourneys at their own house, where nobody cares. So that greenlight has never come up.
We wouldn't want to run it deeper than it already is. And they don't care so much about the items, it's the attitude. Likewise, you know, they might actually start to join our community, but hacking drives them off. So, yeah, we lose even MORE players by being truly Scrubby.
No, I'm treating all forms of cheating as the same thing. Cheats are cheats are cheats. The context has no difference for anyone. Or any player who wants legitimate wins. If they know the game is being modified, then they know it's cheating. If they don't, they're doing it wrong.
It's not legal because it's cheating, and it will never become a standard rule because it's a cheat by default. You really don't understand this, do you? There's two things that are being talked about here, Cheating and Cheat CODES. Using Cheat Codes is Cheating, btw. A cheat code, that is, not an EX Menu but an outside modification of a game's coding. By using what is literally called a Cheat Code, we admit we're doing exactly what cheating is, modifying the game. Likewise, that's two different versions of cheating. Oh, and if you want me to be exact? Modifying your game is breaking the rules set by the OWNERS of the data. That's why it's outright cheating.
Wrong. Cheating is cheating no matter how much you try to justify it. You're breaking the rules of actual created game by modifying it. The game was meant only to be played with the options created for it. Anything else is actual cheating. There is no such thing as "kind of cheating". You are or you aren't. Do you approve of cheating to win? As I said, if you do, I get it. But don't try to say it's not, because it will always be.
No, no, we can't. We do not own the game itself, and cannot ADVERTISE it as Brawl unless it is actually Brawl. Try and use that crappy logic in any court of law. It will fail all the time. Actually, don't bother. If we're advertising it as Brawl, there will be no codes. Otherwise, we MUST specify it's Brawl with some hacks. Otherwise, we're breaking the law.
We can call it Brawl without Tripping, then. That's one legal issue solved.
Except that has zero affect with the data in the game. While it can be called Fraud, it's not the same situation, and is a very strawmanned argument. And you know what? Many would leave or call bull**** on it. This won't work either. No matter what, you won't get good attendees.
Nope, they legally can't. And that TO will be booed out for downright lying to them. Life doesn't work that way. Lying is a pretty bad way to get players, you know. Being completely honest does wonders.
Then why isn't it the Standard? Maybe because they realized that hacks are a shortcut? You give them too little credit. They actually know that PRACTICE makes them better, not cheat codes.
You mean because Tripping has ever shown to be SUCH a huge impact on gameplay? Oh, wait, no, it hasn't. People hate it, but it hasn't given out enough wins to actually even be a problem, and they still accept it. To be honest, if you cannot stand it, go player ANOTHER game. Go play Melee. You either accept the game you bought, or you move on.
That Galoob incident, hmm... And actually, the point isn't whether Nintendo specifically did, it's that they can and sure as hell will if it happens enough to get their attention. Taking a chance they won't, well, is it really worth it? Is it worth getting the message board shut down because people are too nitpicky over a tiny issue to follow the law, something much bigger?
I don't need to. In fact, this is downright insulting to every gamer in the world. This is where I draw the line here. You are downright telling us to cheat and treat it as a GOOD thing. Just because they haven't yet doesn't mean they won't. And once again, might I remind you they have added coding even to their own games for updates that shut the hacks down? Or perhaps they're sure that we wouldn't be idiotic enough to actually make it a standard. They have hope for us that we're actually act like responsible people and not break the law on a large scale.
I don't see money being made on it, or maybe they DON'T KNOW we're making money off of it. Almost every hacked tourney is run at somebody's house. In addition, the venues probably don't know of the codes on. So there's also the issue of the Fraud already happening. They just haven't been called out on it, because, let's be honest, the players don't HAVE to.
Yeah, you actually are. You are trying to promote blatant cheating because of whining over a bad concept. Nothing more.
It's damaging because we get less players with hacks. I do not need evidence to tell you that you're downright breaking the law, and I proved that already on why it is.
The game existed well before No-Tripping codes. No-Tripping codes has to be added in. You have to prove why THEY are good for the community using every factor. It's already been proven why it's not. Multiple times. You're just ignoring every factor instead.
Let's turn this around for a second, because once they arrest you and take down this messageboard, the asking for evidence would like pretty stupid in hindsight. You do not need evidence of a company taking down something before(once again, they tried to downright stop Galoob and the Game Genie, and they lost due to both their EULA, and that the way codes were implimented, the IP was not broken. However, our codes actually break their IP, so it's another story. They would WIN the case instead. This site isn't the problem. In fact, hacking is a very insignificant part of the the main Tourney front. We're keeping it small to prevent any chance of legal issues. Oh, and here's the turn-around: Can you actually prove that this is a good thing for the community? That all will benefit from it, that we have ZERO chance of being shut down, AND that every player would be onboard with this? Because if you can't, and every player has actually played the original copy of Brawl, btw, then your ideal solution fails.
MLG had an issue with us taking out items. They're not allowing us to get in because of both items, stages, MK Banned, AND hacks. They might be lenient with the rest, but they will never approve hacks, no matter what. And that's because they actually understand the law and won't go out of their way to break it.
I refuse to answer it with a yes or no the way it was phrased. It's like me asking you "Do you still beat your wife? Yes or no."
Show me someone in this community who has EVER been put in front of a judge for it.
Show me anyone in this community who has ever been in a court of law for that.
Yes I can, I can call anything anything that I want to.
This isn't even related to the thing that I was referring to in the part you quoted!
No I'm not, STOP strawmanning me.
Pound 5 was ran with every Wii intended to have an infinite replays code on! And Project M was run there!
I would definitely say that the communities that would use hacks would gain from it, if they decided that using them was in their best interest.
Then you concede the point. You either approve of cheating or you don't. The context is in competitive play.
Because the tourneys are one-offs by random TO's at their own house, and are not a standard. This may, just be the reason it's not a standard. So we don't lose our Sponsor.
No, I don't have to show you any of this crap. You still refuse to PROVE that hacks are considered okay by the community. I've shown you multiple reasons why we don't approve it. And once again, the Galoob problem. They won only because they actually didn't break the IP. Otherwise, they wouldn't have. That's your proof. Nintendo has gone out of their way to delete the hacks. We do not need to "show that" to know it's a stupid risk to take. What is honestly pathetic about this is that people think that "if they didn't get caught before, I will never get caught". That train of thought is dangerous and is asking you for it. I mean, any player right now could report this to Nintendo, and this attitude is exactly a good incentive to do it.
It's always a threat to us. It's called being LUCKY that we haven't been shut down or touched. The fear is beyond legitimate and always will be. The communication is that nobody greenlighted it to Nintendo yet.
You keep using that word, but it means absolutely nothing. The game is CALLED Super Smash Bros. Brawl. If we advertise it as that game, then players know it'll be the exact copy we picked up. We even so much as specify what hacks are being played. If it'll affect gameplay, they sure as hell want to know this, and finding out a code is on that, you know, changes the outcome of the match? They would want to know about this. That tiny little code called "No Tripping" affects matches specifically. So yeah, not telling them doesn't work out very well.
How about you prove that it can't happen. Because YOU are trying to make hacks the standard. If you can actually prove that Nintendo cannot shut us down, then we can make it the standard. If you cannot, it won't happen. I'll repeat this till you do it, because you need to. Those that are trying to get rules to be changed have to prove why and if it'll work.
hold on
Pound 5 and Apex 2010 weren't hosted in someone's house.
http://allisbrawl.com/ttournament.aspx?id=8080
Except it's not dangerous.
I never advocated lying to people.
I can't prove a negative. You can't prove definitively that unicorns don't exist, or that fairies don't, or that the Earth isn't flat.
No I'm not I never said this.
Prove to the world that the sun isn't actually a laser that sometimes selectively destroys people who leave their home, or else we can never be sure that won't happen, and we should just stay home all the time.
Well, like, it depends on what exactly you mean here lol.
ehhh they get more viable in a way, but they're both still pretty useless.
I don't think this is all that important, really. The balance will change to a very minor degree, in the same vein that ANY rule change would change the balance.
Of course that's the only consistent effect it has, it's RANDOM, it's inherently inconsistent lol.
What if I don't wanna play Brawl+ or BBrawl, but I don't like tripping lol?
I love how you act as if this mindset is different from what I'm advocating lol. I guess it is though, in that I think this mindset should apply for everyone, and not just when it's convenient for me.
You can.
Alright, go for it. If you've got an audience of people just dying to play with vFalcon+knee hitbox the size of Bowser, go ahead and do it.
I'm saying it's a bad analogy; because there's no demand for warlock punch being 300% faster, but there's clearly a demand, a desire, for tripping, really only a detrimental mechanic, to be removed. Tripping is also simpler to remove in a tournament setting than the Warlock Punch buff (although if there are people willing to not make this an issue, then it isn't an issue, but it's a contributing factor for why there won't develop a community that wants to remove all those other things).
No, it's not a double standard. There's no community desiring the buffing of Ganon's warlock punch to the extent that they would like to host Ganon's warlock punch-stronger tournaments without being laughed at (or hindered or anything). There's never been anyone who's gone "Well I'd buff Ganon's warlock punch, but you know, tripping's still around, so I guess it's w/e." It's circular. Our main reason for not removing tripping is that it would lead us to doing all sorts of other things (slippery slope fallacy,) and our reason for not doing all those other things is because we haven't "opened the pandora's chest" and gotten rid of tripping yet.
