Should anti-trip be a choice for tourney sets?

[Ghostbone]

One is a universal awful mechanic that punishes a character for attempting to move, the others are not.

Awful is subjective, and many other things in the game are awful.
Punishes a character for trying to move doesn't mean anything, I could say random item dropping rewards a player for being attacked.

It's universal but different characters are effected to different degrees by it, so removing it would change game balance and playstyles, similar to changing other things.
Oh and randomly dropping an item when being attacked is universal.

Try again.

 

[Akaku94]

Many characters dash rarely, if at all; that means that they don't have to deal with tripping; characters like ICs or Falco, who dash a lot, do deal with it; dashing is a risk that you take...

@Flayl, Just because it's new for Brawl doesn't make it less a part of Brawl than things like special attacks or jumping. Simply put, tripping is part of Brawl whether we like it or not. We tolerate it just like we tolerate other things we may not like, because Brawl is what it is.

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

@Flayl, Just because it's new for Brawl doesn't make it less a part of Brawl than things like special attacks or jumping. Simply put, tripping is part of Brawl whether we like it or not. We tolerate it just like we tolerate other things we may not like, because Brawl is what it is.

[FONT=&quot]^^^The thing is that there have been things which we haven't tolerated so we have ban them. You can play with items in brawl. Team Attack is originally off. Random stage select is part of brawl. Many stages outside of the ones we play is part of Brawl. You can random select the banned character Metaknight in Brawl and this can't even be turned off. We have a timeout rule instead of playing in Sudden Death, etc. Do we allow it? No. There is a difference between allowable due to it being part of brawl and being a non-competitive nuisance. Everyone has some form of issue with brawl whether it be the ridiculous range of certain moves or a certain special tactic that basically rids that character from competitive play. We get rid of some of those tactics. If a no tripping hack is readily available and easy to install, why not? We have seen matches or stocks that lead to matches lost specifically due to tripping. The idea is to make the game competitive by getting rid of what makes the game non-competitive.
[/FONT]

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Because it is a slippery slope.

Making Ganondorf's fair actually auto cancel like it is programmed to would unarguably make the game more competitive. So if we are fixing tripping, why not do that too?

Oh, and while we are at it, we could make Ganon's Jab just a smidgen faster, I mean, why not?

etc...

 

[tekkie]

Because it is a slippery slope.

Making Ganondorf's fair actually auto cancel like it is programmed to would unarguably make the game more competitive. So if we are fixing tripping, why not do that too?

Oh, and while we are at it, we could make Ganon's Jab just a smidgen faster, I mean, why not?

etc...

just like how a lot of people figured diddy snake falco ICs dedede etc. would be banned if we got rid of metaknight

 

[Grim Tuesday]

No, not at all like that.

The reason for getting rid of the tripping is the same as the reason for fixing the game's balance in other areas.
The reason for banning Meta Knight is not the same as the reason for banning those other characters.

No one double standards the king of double standards, thankyou very much.

 

[Akaku94]

[FONT=&quot]^^^The thing is that there have been things which we haven't tolerated so we have ban them. You can play with items in brawl. Team Attack is originally off. Random stage select is part of brawl. Many stages outside of the ones we play is part of Brawl. You can random select the banned character Metaknight in Brawl and this can't even be turned off. We have a timeout rule instead of playing in Sudden Death, etc. Do we allow it? No.

If the game gives us the option to do something, we have the obligation to do so if it makes the game more competitive. Items can be turned off, team attack can be turned on, we can pick stages however we want (if it's my turn to choose, I can pick random if I want; there's just always a better option), and it is completely possible to NOT PICK a character or stage. There is no option in Brawl to turn off tripping, no way to avoid tripping besides not dashing. It is possible within the game mechanics to quit the match and decide it through whatever timeout clause is agreed upon in the rules. Everything you mentioned is doable (and being done) through the game's mechanics with no need to hack, mod, or make any change to the game itself; in doing these things we are merely acting upon the options given to us by Super Smash Brothers Brawl.

There is a difference between allowable due to it being part of brawl and being a non-competitive nuisance. Everyone has some form of issue with brawl whether it be the ridiculous range of certain moves or a certain special tactic that basically rids that character from competitive play. We get rid of some of those tactics.

What tactics have we gotten rid of? We haven't banned any moves with ridiculous range, or any tactics whatsoever (besides IDC, which was done as a last resort; the lesser of two evils at the time, and now utterly irrelevant). Getting rid of anything non-broken is scrubby and non-competitive.

If a no tripping hack is readily available and easy to install, why not? We have seen matches or stocks that lead to matches lost specifically due to tripping. The idea is to make the game competitive by getting rid of what makes the game non-competitive.

[/FONT]

Because once we change a single bit of the game artificially, we are no longer playing Brawl, but an idealized version of our own making. As Grim pointed out, once we artificially change the game to make it more competitive in one aspect, we are obligated to improve the game in other ways through the same method. I'm sure a Ganon-buff is as readily available as no-tripping, and it would undoubtedly make the game more competetive, but that doesn't mean we should do it!

Changing the game is all well and good, provided it is done within the confines of the game itself. Once we have to artificially modify the game in any way, shape, or form, we cross the line.

 

[Ghostbone]

If we turn tripping off, we'd might as well make Lylat's transformations occur in a set order/timer, same with PS1, PS2, Delfino, Frigate, Brinstar, Smashville, etc. to reduce randomness, which improves the competitiveness of the game in the same way turning tripping off does.

And then why not alter some stages to make them more tournament viable? Alter Green Greens so it's not random, put ledges on PTAD and weaken the cars, cut out most of temple like the P:M guys did, replace say, Hanenbow with the Wifi training area, all of this is fair game once we start making hacks the standard.

Continuing on, we should start to balance characters, not only would we have more tournament viable characters, now that MK's banned, we'd have 1 extra character in our balanced mod, more competitive eh?


To repeat what I said earlier "Tripping is stupid, a bunch of stuff in Brawl is stupid, and it's stupid to only remove/edit some stupid stuff without the rest of the stupid stuff."

 

[DunnoBro]

Sure is text in here.

 

[Timic83]

tripping is dumb
brawl is dumb

project m > brawl
please hurry up and come out project m

(but srsly i think no tripping hacks are fine, people don't complain when crits, damage range and projectile spread are turned off in tf2)

 

[KoRoBeNiKi]

^^^That is since TF2 was designed to competitive, valve gave people options to do that, we don't have a developer's console in brawl as nintendo doesn't give it to us.

Nintendo Wii-fi is almost the opposite of Valve online, laggy, not caring, and the inability to change things.

 

[holyv]

Yeah, but you don't need to put in some kind of code to get rid of that

Replay hack.

argument done. move on.

yeah, ban tripping.

 

[Kuro~]

U guys over-analyze stuff.

 

[_Keno_]

Because it is a slippery slope.

Making Ganondorf's fair actually auto cancel like it is programmed to would unarguably make the game more competitive. So if we are fixing tripping, why not do that too?

Oh, and while we are at it, we could make Ganon's Jab just a smidgen faster, I mean, why not?

etc...

It's an occurrence for all characters that negatively impacts the game's competitiveness. Editing it is a universal change, like adding a time limit or turning team attack on. Unless you consider those to be slippery slopes?

The only difference between removing tripping and changing a time limit is that one was originally built into the game's mechanics as an option while the other was not.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The fact that it isn't a part of the game makes all the difference in the world.

We already change all of the rules to what we believe are the most competitive (Pause off, Team Attack on, 8 minutes, 3 stock, etc...), so there are no double standards there.

However, if we were to hack the game just for a tripping code then we would be opening the gateway for various "fixes", and not implementing said fixes would be a double standard.

 

[Circle_Breaker]

Ugh it's awful that we have all these arguments when Smash obviously isn't balanced and made very well for tournament play, so both sides (in these types of arguments - stages, characters, tripping mods) are kind of a losing proposition:
1) don't ban it. play a broken game w/ stupid things like MK planking
2) ban it. add a bunch of unintuitive rules/SD card "hacks"

I wish people would stop playing smash like it was going to be as officially recognized and legit as SF4 and just choose to start running local balanced brawl events. it's not illegal, it's a mod, and it's a better game (in an objective sense, depending on your definition of good I guess).

 

[Ghostbone]

I wish people would stop playing smash like it was going to be as officially recognized and legit as SF4 and just choose to start running local balanced brawl events. it's not illegal, it's a mod, and it's a better game (in an objective sense, depending on your definition of good I guess).

Casuals already look down on tournament goers for 'not playing the game' even though we're only modifying in game rules for the most part. We're at least still playing Brawl.

Imagine if a hack became standard, there would be a huge rift not only between the competitive and casual communities, but also between different competitive communities.

Every competitive player started out as a casual player, the harder you make it for casuals to join the competitive scene, the smaller the scene will get.

 

[Mr.Jackpot]

You seem to forget that it's optional. And nobody cares what scrubs think.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

You seem to forget that it's optional. And nobody cares what scrubs think.

Learn to read:

Every competitive player started out as a casual player, the harder you make it for casuals to join the competitive scene, the smaller the scene will get.

THAT is why we care what scrubs think.

 

[Black Mantis]

I hate to revive an old topic (forgive me), but is anti-trip official yet?

 

[-LzR-]

It never will be.

 

[Akaku94]

We already put this thread to bed, and you had to bump it... 0_o

Anti-trip will never be standard, or even an option except in side-tournys at best..

 

[The Ben]

Hacking should never be the standard, ever.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

Hacking should never be the standard, ever.

Because of how it affects, well, everything. It promotes cheating, double standards, illegal play(both with people putting on hacks not advertised and how it's at best QUESTIONABLY legal), problemsome play(accidentally reset? Too bad, time is wasted), time-wasting(resets, checking for other hacks), scrubby play(even more so than we do now), venue troubles, less player attendance, and the best one; Inability to ever get a chance to get into the MLG.

Honestly, we would consider taking tripping off it was an option. But we can't. If we cannot remove something without hacking, it ceased to be a legit option. People wouldn't care nearly as much if it weren't for the MLG and the fact that the Nintendo EULA makes it rather clear that what you're doing isn't 100% illegal. As well as Nintendo making it clear as day that they do not approve hacks. Likewise, trying to convince a court that you're following the law won't work either. Nintendo itself has proven they do not approve of hacks in itself, and have the right to make your Wii unplayable if you use something they do not approve with it. That EULA is mean, ain't it? Well, you better play by the rules or you'll get burnt by the law.

Moving on, people would LOVE to have no tripping. They're just no indefinitely legal way to do it. We can ban Meta Knight because we have the option not to choose him. Same with items, stages, even tactics. They can all be limited by rules. This cannot, which is why it can't become the standard. I would be for it if it could be done without losing chances of MLG and Nintendo wouldn't try to stop it. Trust me, if they didn't care, nobody would find it that big of a deal, but they do, so yeah.

 

[Strong Badam]

Brawl will probably not be on MLG again no matter what happens.

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

Has anyone mentioned yet that at 90% of tournaments tons of the Wiis have random tripping on and no one bothers to check?

Just sayin' this is pretty much already happening everywhere and the world hasn't ended.

The best thing you can do if you want to play on Wiis that use the no tripping code is to keep your mouth shut.

 

[Black Mantis]

The purpose of playing a fighting game competitively is to see who is the better player (consistency). Imagine if you're playing street fighter and you randomly lose control if your character and get hit by an ultra? Is your opponent consistently better than you? Does losing control of your character have anything to do with your skill level?

 

[Strong Badam]

Deal with it or play a different game.

 

[Black Mantis]

France has no-trip enforced.

Just sayin.

 

[Strong Badam]

How did Leon do at APEX?

 

[The Ben]

The purpose of playing a fighting game competitively is to see who is the better player (consistency). Imagine if you're playing street fighter and you randomly lose control if your character and get hit by an ultra? Is your opponent consistently better than you? Does losing control of your character have anything to do with your skill level?

The purpose of playing any game competitively is to see who is better at the game, period. Tripping is part of Smash therefor part of being better at Smash is dealing with trips.

 

[Akaku94]

The purpose of playing any game competitively is to see who is better at the game, period. Tripping and stages are part of Smash therefore part of being better at Smash is dealing with trips and stages.

Fixed for you... People tend to forget that last part, even in stage-related discussions.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

We should just play the game the way it was meant to be played and only limit what we can limit without completely changing the game. Look at Pokemon. They don't remove crits, or secondary effects (10% chance of freeze, burn, poison etc.)

 

[Black Mantis]

It's funny people bring up stages. Stages are eliminated to alleviate random factors (and broken camping) Tripping is a random factor.

 

[Akaku94]

We ban stages for other reasons than randomness; Temple isn't random at all. Furthermore, randomness in stages is okay in many situations, as it's not game-breaking; SV's platform spawns at a random spot at the start of the match. Where we draw the line is (unfortunately) subjective, as where one person sees "learn the stage and be prepared" another sees "stage is broken, ban."

 

[Black Mantis]

The point being stuff gets banned

 

[The Ben]

But the stuff that does get banned doesn't require altering the game itself. You're just actively not choosing to do something that the game gives you a choice of doing or not.

 

[Verde Coeden Scalesworth]

And that ignores the context completely. Every game can ban stuff. It's the reason why and how they can do it that matters.

There is no way to remove Tripping outside of hacking with has many problems, as listed above.

Banning stuff is not bad whatsoever. If the game can be played with no issues and doesn't need a ban, great. That's not always the case. Rules will always exist in a competitive game, even if we don't make them ourselves. It's a key part of fighting games. You have to win by some condition. Smash is definitely more open. If there was a switch in-game that we could throw to turn tripping off, we would, but that's not the case.

Let's keep in mind that many items are a problem as is, although it's unfair we didn't test them. No disagreements here. Some stages are not cheap, but they cause other kinds of problems, including walk-offs and circle camping. The first one isn't nearly as bad, but it was a general decision to not allow it. It's not an illegitimate win condition, but we don't find it fair. Circle Camping is pretty much no different from an actual stalling. Thus, removing courses that promote that(Hyrule being the most famous example), we prevent the issue from the core. One key thing is that the stalling is what we don't want. Camping is FINE, annoying, but it does often force approaching, meaning the game can keep going. Stalling prevents the game from going on.

We limit those things(mainly stalling) so we don't have to always go to the time limit, meaning we can continue the tourney. It's in fact the only reason the timer is at 8. So tourneys don't last too long.

People don't actually are about stuff being banned, they care about WHY it is. Something gets banned? Eh, happens. We ask why, not complain that is. But the thing is, our complaints is about the reasons, not the fact that it is. All opinions count, but saying "I don't like it" won't help us see your point of view, and is entirely actually worthless to us. It's only good in a poll of some kind.

 

[Black Mantis]

I argue from consistency and proving who the better player is. Imagine if their is tripping and street fighter and i play Daigo in bracket. If he trips into my ultra and I win against him does that make me a better player than Daigo?

 

[Strong Badam]

your examples explain why tripping is a bad design decision, but don't really explain why hacking the game to remove it is fine. we all know it's a stupid idea/concept but it's part of the game and we have to deal with it.