silentSWAG
Smash Lord
i find that sheiks crouch dodges lasers
(when they are shot higher)
(when they are shot higher)
-
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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA
- Thread starter KirbyKaze
- Start date
Kaffei
Smash Hero
- Joined
- Feb 8, 2008
- Messages
- 7,048
I love this
SacaSuMoto
Smash Journeyman
Does anyone have any data/ tips on sheik's reverse fair hitbox?
:D it looks really cool when you do it.
:D it looks really cool when you do it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Hit with the back part of the red bubbles (behind her head, or where the back part of the hitbox isn't being stretched forward).
It's generally easiest to do this vs Peach and other slow recoveries by using the first 2 frames of her fair by aiming to hit with the back of her head.
SacaSuMoto
Smash Journeyman
thanks xD
do you know the direction it's supposed to send your opponents ?
do you know the direction it's supposed to send your opponents ?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Same trajectory as the fair when it hits normally except it sends the opposite direction (like any backwards-hitting move).
soap
Smash Hero
Webster is your friend
BlindSpot
Smash Apprentice
Hi all. I'm just recently getting back into melee, and am loving it 
I've been watching a lot of Amsah's and KirbyKaze's matches (Already watched all of M2K's) and I'm really learning a lot about Sheik.
However, I have a question.
Since I switch back and forth between melee and brawl, I didn't want to main fox or falco, because of how technical they are. I mean, on the first day with fox, I could waveshine link across FD. And with Falco, I could shine turnaround Bair, and do waveshine combos. However, to play the characters at a high level, it's going to take quite a bit of work, because of me having to go back and forth. Plus, I just feel more comfortable with Sheik than I do with fox or falco.
My question, is should I stick with strictly Sheik? Or, should I main Sheik, and alt Marth?
I know M2K, Amsah, and Ice all have a sheik and marth. So, Marth must be a pretty good alt for Sheik mains, right?
So, what are your opinions on staying pure sheik, or alting marth?
I've been watching a lot of Amsah's and KirbyKaze's matches (Already watched all of M2K's) and I'm really learning a lot about Sheik.
However, I have a question.
Since I switch back and forth between melee and brawl, I didn't want to main fox or falco, because of how technical they are. I mean, on the first day with fox, I could waveshine link across FD. And with Falco, I could shine turnaround Bair, and do waveshine combos. However, to play the characters at a high level, it's going to take quite a bit of work, because of me having to go back and forth. Plus, I just feel more comfortable with Sheik than I do with fox or falco.
My question, is should I stick with strictly Sheik? Or, should I main Sheik, and alt Marth?
I know M2K, Amsah, and Ice all have a sheik and marth. So, Marth must be a pretty good alt for Sheik mains, right?
So, what are your opinions on staying pure sheik, or alting marth?
As a player who used to play Sheik/Marth I don't believe Marth is that great of an alternate for her.
All it offered for me was a somewhat better match up vs ICs and a more comfortable match up vs spacies.
We're fortunate that Sheik is an incredibly solid character that you really don't require an alternate so if you don't have enough time to commit practicing both just stay with sheik.
All it offered for me was a somewhat better match up vs ICs and a more comfortable match up vs spacies.
We're fortunate that Sheik is an incredibly solid character that you really don't require an alternate so if you don't have enough time to commit practicing both just stay with sheik.
BlindSpot
Smash Apprentice
Alright, thanks.
I'll stay Sheik, at least for awhile. If I feel I need an alt later on, I'll decide then. But for quite awhile, I'll stay pure Sheik.
I was just curious why I was seeing Sheik/Marth often.
I'll stay Sheik, at least for awhile. If I feel I need an alt later on, I'll decide then. But for quite awhile, I'll stay pure Sheik.
I was just curious why I was seeing Sheik/Marth often.
silentSWAG
Smash Lord
just keep having fun and with time u should be able to pick a fav
you may like peach....
you may like peach....
Most people probably do it because Marth is a better match up for spacies.
Xyzz
Smash Champion
Maybe they are also actually Marth mains and don't like some Marth matchups (CF / Sheik probably :D)
soap
Smash Hero
in the past I would have said M2k is a Marth main with a sheik secondary, but he can win with both of them
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Peach is a great secondary for Sheik. It works really well for the homie DarkAtma. (Although I think in his case it's more of, Sheik is a secondary for Peach)
Xyzz
Smash Champion
I think Atma once said that the two of them are on equal footing with each other for him and it depends a lot on his daily form whether one of the two does better (:
Sheik also makes a pretty good secondary for Peach, I think... Although neither takes care of each others Puff weakness. Didn't start fooling around with her for that reason though ... She's just super fun to play :D (I really love her legs lol)
Sheik also makes a pretty good secondary for Peach, I think... Although neither takes care of each others Puff weakness. Didn't start fooling around with her for that reason though ... She's just super fun to play :D (I really love her legs lol)
S l o X
Smash Champion
fox is the best secondary. it covers sheiks weird matchups like ic / puff really well. fox covers the matchups im not too comfortable in like sheik dittos.
i need to win locals so i can get a good apex partner.
i need to win locals so i can get a good apex partner.
Smooth Criminal
Da Cheef
Slox is now Herman Munster.
Lol
Smooth Criminal
Lol
Smooth Criminal
soap
Smash Hero
I am just now learning the timing for short hop, fastfall first, nair
I always just used fair cuz it was easier to do
This seems so good tho I feel like an idiot for never using this before
I always just used fair cuz it was easier to do
This seems so good tho I feel like an idiot for never using this before
S0FT
Smash Ace
Been training a lot for Apex. Would it be possible to get a game analysis of 3:10:47
http://www.twitch.tv/zydin/b/335046215
http://www.twitch.tv/zydin/b/335046215
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
It's just my name for that state that players get into when you've hit them a bunch and they start doing dumb things because they're not how to escape the ****. Often happens as a byproduct of people not sure how to go about hitting their opponent, how to play out of the bad position, etc. So it's kind of like a reaction to a mix of positional advantage disadvantage and having momentum against you.Kk, anyway you could explicitly define "stagger"? You use it a lot and I'm unfamiliar with what you mean when you say it.
Alternatively, consult Webster (like soap said).
Soap - SH FF nair LC is my bread and butter vs ICs with both Fox and Sheik. It has a lot of useful combo, shield pressure, and even approach potential (when used very sparingly). The stun and popping people up makes it often superior to fair as a combo starter (combos into dash attack and grab much more neatly if they don't crouch it).
Regarding secondaries? I actually think some of the mid and low tiers are reasonable pocket characters for Sheik just because all a Sheik secondary really needs to be able to do is handle Puff and/or ICs since those are her only losing MUs. So I don't really recommend switching unless it's legitimately unfun for you to play those MUs (for reasons other than, "I keep getting *****" and its permutations). That said, there are two good characters that strike me as covering her weak MUs best. Peach and Fox.
Peach is really convenient for ICs so she usually comes to mind fast. A lot of Sheiks dislike fighting spacies too, especially on FD and Peach also helps alleviate this. In ancient times this also opened up for janky CPs a la Mute City and Brinstar, which was kind of cool. Darkatma and VaNz have been using this character mix to strong effect for a very long time. Peach also has some nice superficial similarities to Sheik in that they both use a lot of shield-based strategies vs common characters, escape combos partially as a result of managing escape options (rather than off pure trajectory manipulation), similar combo games (although Peach has a CG), etc.
Fox is just stronger than Sheik vs Puff and ICs because his character is just built better for fighting them. I don't really like suggesting people to learn Fox simply because he's got a steep learning curve on his technical execution and he plays a lot different than Sheik so the transition can be really tough. That said, if you are actually good with him or willing to put the time in then he's not a terrible investment. I would still say that most people benefit from learning their bad MUs but... some people also like playing multiple characters so yeah. He's not too hard to play vs most ICs (only ICs that's been hard with Fox thus far is Fly [though I haven't played Wobbles]) because they just fish for mistakes and if you don't mess up you **** them. SH FF nair LC (in that order) seems to demolish them pretty hard, as does u-tilt. I would write a novel on Fox Puff but rest assured it's a good MU for Fox. His camping on big levels is pretty insane and he exerts a lot of threat if she tries to compete with his ground game. All she really can do is camp 'cuz of how dangerous anything else is so just maintain stronger stage presence with his vastly better mobility (and supplementary stuff) and GG Purin.
I think Luigi, Ganon, Doc, Link, Young Link, and maybe even G&W have some potential to be reasonable secondaries too simply because those characters can fight at least one of Puff or ICs decently (I'll define "decently" as "at least as well as Sheik fares"). They also have the advantage of the opponent not knowing the MU, which can be dandy (and sometimes functionally more useful than a strict character trait advantage). The flipside is that the low tier mentality is very different than the top tier mentality (the focus is different) and they run into huge problems with double blinds (or CPing in general). Being stuck as YL vs a pocket space animal can be really irritating. Fox and Peach (like Sheik) can manage everything that they encounter so... they don't run this kind of risk.
At the end of the day though, I think just doing it with Sheik is best but that's largely as a result of thinking about CPs for so long. Seems like learning a whole new character is more effort than learning it with Sheik.
Coming back down after being up-air'd by Fox seems to be hard for me. I've tried falling nair, but it doesn't do the trick. What do I need to do? I usually keep getting up air'd and I feel really dumb about it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Bair is okay because it hits low immediately. You can play timing games vs their uair by switching between the two. Might work, might not.
You could also DI to maximize distance between the two of you. Might help. Make him dash into FJ or something with DJ into uair to hit you and DI the way opposite to that. Make him run left, then DI right. It sometimes helps.
You're usually being uaired kind of high in the air so airdodge is dreadful unless you can hit a platform.
When all else fails, SDI it.
You could also DI to maximize distance between the two of you. Might help. Make him dash into FJ or something with DJ into uair to hit you and DI the way opposite to that. Make him run left, then DI right. It sometimes helps.
You're usually being uaired kind of high in the air so airdodge is dreadful unless you can hit a platform.
When all else fails, SDI it.
Nedved
Smash Apprentice
Hey Sheik boards, it has been a long time !
After some thoughts, i decided to main Fox over Sheik, the spacie fits more my playstyle than Sheik. But I'm not done with Sheik yet, and i'm going to play both depending on the opponent (character/opponents playstyle)
That being said, i recorded a fex matches against a Marth (troublesome MU with Fox, and I struggled a lot in this MU before).
Here is the matches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hKuXNueH6YE
I already wrote little things about it, but i would gladly like some critics from you guys
General things
Some bad techs lead to deaths. I got some problems to finish my kills, and my edgeguarding is very bad. A lot of time, I couldn't manage to get the ledge fast enough to edgeguard, so I was hopeless.
2:10 was a shameful recover I also went for stupid dash attack, followed by stupid dash attacks...
When I whiff an aerial, i'm hopeless. I think I should be more precise or try to space so he won't hit me afterward like at 2:59
After getting tech chased last stock, I probably did something wrong but I can't point the whole thing out.
Second match: Final Destination
I started way better, not approaching that much and placing better. Then I started to **** things up. I don't know if my edgeguard get predicted or if i messed up on my third stock but it failed. I started to attack way too much because of angryness. After some time I calmed myself and try not to die. Missed a great punishment at 7:35. The,.. DA again -_-'
Last death was miserable*: Ice killed me twice in a row like that at ESA5 and I didn't learn anything
Last match: Fountain of Dreams
9:00*: Ok, what the **** was that *****?
Lot of fails on both part during this match, but i don't see anything relevant
Gimped him on my last stock cause it didn't paid attention, then manage to get victory caused he killed himself
Conclusion:
-Sould learn when to shield if I can't continue a combo cause i got faired too much
-Should DI the Fair away from Marth to avoid being comboed.
Edit : someone told me that, with feints, I can control much more space than him, and shield more. I should use WDOoS to jab to Wd back to stuff more. and play because marth can only shield. He also said I should be more aggressive. Any thoughts about this ?
What about momentum ? I don't know hot to keep it, etc. I always get killed because i can't reset the situation IMO.
Any words for me guys? =)
After some thoughts, i decided to main Fox over Sheik, the spacie fits more my playstyle than Sheik. But I'm not done with Sheik yet, and i'm going to play both depending on the opponent (character/opponents playstyle)
That being said, i recorded a fex matches against a Marth (troublesome MU with Fox, and I struggled a lot in this MU before).
Here is the matches: http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=hKuXNueH6YE
I already wrote little things about it, but i would gladly like some critics from you guys
General things
First match: DreamLand64
Some bad techs lead to deaths. I got some problems to finish my kills, and my edgeguarding is very bad. A lot of time, I couldn't manage to get the ledge fast enough to edgeguard, so I was hopeless.
2:10 was a shameful recover
I also went for stupid dash attack, followed by stupid dash attacks...When I whiff an aerial, i'm hopeless. I think I should be more precise or try to space so he won't hit me afterward like at 2:59
After getting tech chased last stock, I probably did something wrong but I can't point the whole thing out.
Second match: Final Destination
I started way better, not approaching that much and placing better. Then I started to **** things up. I don't know if my edgeguard get predicted or if i messed up on my third stock but it failed. I started to attack way too much because of angryness. After some time I calmed myself and try not to die. Missed a great punishment at 7:35. The,.. DA again -_-'
Last death was miserable*: Ice killed me twice in a row like that at ESA5 and I didn't learn anything
Last match: Fountain of Dreams
9:00*: Ok, what the **** was that *****?
Lot of fails on both part during this match, but i don't see anything relevant
Gimped him on my last stock cause it didn't paid attention, then manage to get victory caused he killed himself
Conclusion:
-Sould learn when to shield if I can't continue a combo cause i got faired too much
-Should DI the Fair away from Marth to avoid being comboed.
Edit : someone told me that, with feints, I can control much more space than him, and shield more. I should use WDOoS to jab to Wd back to stuff more. and play because marth can only shield. He also said I should be more aggressive. Any thoughts about this ?
What about momentum ? I don't know hot to keep it, etc. I always get killed because i can't reset the situation IMO.
Any words for me guys? =)
Towards the end of your first match, I noticed that every time he grabbed and threw you, you tech'd in place. After the second time you did it, I said to myself, "he's gonna do it again" every time he threw you; without fail, you did it. Watch your own tech patterns just as much as you watch your own.
Another thing I saw. The whole waveland to falling bair was like, absolute genius. I've never though of doing something like that, so I'll probably be adding that to my developing playstyle. :^)
When you dsmashed the Marth at that super high percent after he used Counter, I was really confused as to why you did just short hop fair. It would've made sure the kill was confirmed instead of having to edgeguard him.
Second match. When you did your falling nair on him off the side, I knew what you were trying to do. The best thing to do is wait til the Marth has burned their jump before attempting the nair. Otherwise they'll fall with you, just below your nair, THEN jump and recover, leaving you off stage.
When doing your reverse needle cancels, practice short hopping them. You'll get to the ledge way faster.
When a Marth seems to be throwing out an empty short hop to bait an approach, nine times out of ten they're going to end up doing a nair or fair, to either set you up for a combo, or getting you off the stage. Sometimes running up and shielding is good, because you can grab him, or SHFFL a fair after he lands.
On FoD when you recovered at about 9:10, it's best to just air dodge to the stage, because if a Marth is in range, which a lot of really good Marth's will be when you recover to the stage, he will tipper you.
Rolling on a platform is never good. His fsmash will almost ALWAYS hit you when you do this.
At about 10:00 when he is side-b stalling, that's your time to grab the ledge, forcing him to jump, then doing (what I am probably calling wrong) a fallen ledge'd nair. (I prefer flicking down on the c-stick, and immediately pressing 'A.')
At the end of the game (even though you won) instead of rolling from the ledge when the Marth can sweetspot the stage itself, waveland from the ledge, grab them, dthrow, and fair the Marth, or just fair him from the ledge.
At 11:02, when you dthrew him, you could have run off fair'd, I think, just to insure the kill.
Other things:
Something I myself forget ALL the time, is that you can still get on the stage without up+b. ALWAYS remember you can airdodge on the stage, too. It's a lot less end lag time.
Sometimes just grabbing the edge and rolling is the best edgeguard in situations.
Don't dash attack shields. If he keeps shielding your dash attacks, just grab him, or practice the spacing on dash attacking and landing on the other side of their shield.
When you throw someone and they hit the ground, you don't have to react right away. They have to either roll, get up, or get up attack at one point or another, and you're Sheik. You'll have time.
Just practice basic tech skill.
These are just things I personally saw when watching this, and what I think would be better things to do in certain situations.
I should probably follow my own advice...
Another thing I saw. The whole waveland to falling bair was like, absolute genius. I've never though of doing something like that, so I'll probably be adding that to my developing playstyle. :^)
When you dsmashed the Marth at that super high percent after he used Counter, I was really confused as to why you did just short hop fair. It would've made sure the kill was confirmed instead of having to edgeguard him.
Second match. When you did your falling nair on him off the side, I knew what you were trying to do. The best thing to do is wait til the Marth has burned their jump before attempting the nair. Otherwise they'll fall with you, just below your nair, THEN jump and recover, leaving you off stage.
When doing your reverse needle cancels, practice short hopping them. You'll get to the ledge way faster.
When a Marth seems to be throwing out an empty short hop to bait an approach, nine times out of ten they're going to end up doing a nair or fair, to either set you up for a combo, or getting you off the stage. Sometimes running up and shielding is good, because you can grab him, or SHFFL a fair after he lands.
On FoD when you recovered at about 9:10, it's best to just air dodge to the stage, because if a Marth is in range, which a lot of really good Marth's will be when you recover to the stage, he will tipper you.
Rolling on a platform is never good. His fsmash will almost ALWAYS hit you when you do this.
At about 10:00 when he is side-b stalling, that's your time to grab the ledge, forcing him to jump, then doing (what I am probably calling wrong) a fallen ledge'd nair. (I prefer flicking down on the c-stick, and immediately pressing 'A.')
At the end of the game (even though you won) instead of rolling from the ledge when the Marth can sweetspot the stage itself, waveland from the ledge, grab them, dthrow, and fair the Marth, or just fair him from the ledge.
At 11:02, when you dthrew him, you could have run off fair'd, I think, just to insure the kill.
Other things:
Something I myself forget ALL the time, is that you can still get on the stage without up+b. ALWAYS remember you can airdodge on the stage, too. It's a lot less end lag time.
Sometimes just grabbing the edge and rolling is the best edgeguard in situations.
Don't dash attack shields. If he keeps shielding your dash attacks, just grab him, or practice the spacing on dash attacking and landing on the other side of their shield.
When you throw someone and they hit the ground, you don't have to react right away. They have to either roll, get up, or get up attack at one point or another, and you're Sheik. You'll have time.
Just practice basic tech skill.
These are just things I personally saw when watching this, and what I think would be better things to do in certain situations.
I should probably follow my own advice...
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so.
garrR
Smash Apprentice
what's the proper way to DI marth's u-throw -> u-tilt at low percents? is there any way to shorten the amount of time you get juggled, or do you just have to take it?
nicaboy
Smash Champion
Lol josh you are not a sheik player. Get the **** out of here.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
*goes to sheik thread*
*reads kirbykaze posts*
*gains motivation and confidence to take on the world*
*leaves sheik thread*
*reads kirbykaze posts*
*gains motivation and confidence to take on the world*
*leaves sheik thread*
L__
Smash Master
LMAOOO
that's what i do sometimes
that's what i do sometimes
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
You guys are such leeches
BRB salt shaker's on its way
<3
BRB salt shaker's on its way
<3
soap
Smash Hero
I'm still waiting on that National son
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
I'm working on it.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
All of my stuff from TBH2 is up.
Vs Mango
Vs Fly Amanita (ICs)
Vs Chillindude829 (Fox)
Vs Frootloop
Vs Vudujin (Luigi)
Vs Dope
Vs Sung
Vs Lanceinthepants
Vs GunPunch (Samus)
Anything without a character specified is vs Falco.
Vs Mango
Vs Fly Amanita (ICs)
Vs Chillindude829 (Fox)
Vs Frootloop
Vs Vudujin (Luigi)
Vs Dope
Vs Sung
Vs Lanceinthepants
Vs GunPunch (Samus)
Anything without a character specified is vs Falco.
joeplicate
Smash Master
Speeneegubahhd~
KICK
KICK
Why dthrow instead of uthrow for tech chasing?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
D-throw is just better.
U-throw doesn't combo into anything substantial if they don't DI it until about 45 or so (where it links to u-tilt). It never combos into anything if they DI behind. If they DI in front, it combos into d-tilt at like 40 which is kind of cute but d-throw is still better.
U-throw doesn't combo into anything substantial if they don't DI it until about 45 or so (where it links to u-tilt). It never combos into anything if they DI behind. If they DI in front, it combos into d-tilt at like 40 which is kind of cute but d-throw is still better.