Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KP17]

yup that makes sense. sorry i didnt see a post above which made it confusing. thanks for clarifying

 

[Dizzymoon]

Can someone please make and post a gif or video showing this off and how practical it is? I trust cactuar and reading the frame data I see how it would be better than WD out of dash, but just cant visualize it in game, thanks.

 

[Alulim]

All it looks like in game is dashing in one direction, crouching for a brief moment and then immediately dashing in the other direction.

In terms of 'practicality', you'll have to weigh the distance your character can crouching, and turn to travel via running to the X number of frames it takes to wavedash. Still doesn't make wavedashing 'obsolete' as PRog said even if you can nail this with 99.9% consistency - pretty sure there are options available when you're just wavedashing vs dashing away.

IMO I'm not consistent with it at all and don't feel as though I can get it to be consistent enough to use in a match (at least not for a while, especially when there's more important stuff to focus on for improvement). Yeah, the timing's really weird unlike stuff like shield dropping. Guess some people are better at certain techs and worse in others.

 

[Cactuar]

You guys keep jumping to the "dash backwards out of run" conclusion, but you're missing the part where you can do things like ftilt nearly instantly toward the opponent while running away, without having to use a WD to reset you. The biggest advantage of using this instead of a WD is that you don't telegraph your next action nearly as much.

 

[Alulim]

That's true. I think its the the consistency of the tech that's really bothering me.
That and I can only see Sheik pulling out some f-tilts or dash -> turn back -> dash mixup grabs on the opponent.

In theory it seems to be utterly amazing for Fox/Falcon/Marth because they'll be able to reset themselves into a dash dance at any time after their initial dash animation has ended. Sheik's DD isn't good enough to benefit as strongly from this tech, not to say that it doesn't have some value in practicing in itself. I'll try it out some more and come back with my thoughts.

 

[Falcinho]

I'm pretty sure M2k' Marth used this movement technique for a gimmick now and then, when he almost exclusively played Marth.

Against Fox he would spam SH nairs a lot in the neutral game and then usually go for a dashdance pivot grab, if Fox went aggressive.
However, some Fox players started expecting that and tried overshooting deep.
After getting caught a few times trying to dashdance pivot grab, M2k would then just dash away and let the fox whiff while somehow still managing to turn around and grab in time.
When I tried to replicate it I came up with the crouch method too, but I never thought about dashing out of it again after.

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

I'm having such a hard time with the falco matchup. I just seem to be constantly losing the neutral game and it leads to upwards towards 60%+ with pillar shenanigans. I know learning to powershield on command is a good thing in the matchup so I'm working on that. I also have been watching M2K vs PP/Westballz/etc to try and pick up what I need to do, but his SHFF nairs are godlike, I can't even seem to get enoughspace to be able to throw them out like m2k does. What should I be doing in the neutral game to fix that?

 

[Alulim]

Post

The matchup's pretty detailed and there's a ton of information that's accessible via searching through the Sheik boards either manually or with the search option.

if you want a general breakdown of the matchup, it's something like:
- Learn how to nair oos right after laser hitstun ends
- Learn how to nair oos between his first and second laser whenever he does rising double lasers
- Learn how to nair oos after a shine/his aerials
(So, a lot of nair oos that you basically have to know learn + its timing after certain moves' hitstuns)

Outside that there's stuff like SDIing falco's shine away to minimize his conversions, tech chasing not just off throws, but off tilts, dash attacks, etc and on platforms, gimping him / edgehog strats (bair and rising nair like all his options though sometimes its heavily situational - you might not time to reach the stage to do that so you'd have to work on clipping him with needles aimed to prevent him from sweetspotting the ledge with your illusion and stuff like f-tilt against the illusions above the ledge and onto the stage). There's also working with frame advantage from your moves and capitalizing off it and tilt trapping and maximizing your conversions everytime vs time - he should never be able to recover whenever he's off the stage.

Its basically a matchup that gets closer and closer to 50/50 as you get better in this game, except everything falco does is pretty applicable to you at early percentages while you have to learn all this stuff just to go even against him (dair shine pillars to rack up damage, replace shine with up tilt o(r d-tilt if the sheik is SDIing away from the aerials) at 50% or 60% once the dair starts knocking down. He'll kill off dair spikes, forward smash tech chases, raw nairs/bairs and even stuff like forward throw unless you know how to do the 50/50 sheik recovery mixup (aim at ledge or right above the ledge) - if you're too far away and your DI is crappy, then it won't matter and it'll be rinse/repeat until you die. He also owns you with his control of lasers which is why getting nair oos right after the laser's hitstun ends is so important (occasionally you'd just avoid it by going on a platform / crouching (note that crouching won't work on good falcos like PP who probably SH FF lasers perfectly enough to hit you crouching almost everytime).

It's a matchup that'll take lots of time and practice to get good at.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fpr0ppng28U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1m1a_qYvWdc

^ I know everybody watches M2K sheik videos here so I decided to link you to some KK vs mango falco videos. I think KK is amazing and does certain things much better than what M2K does (imo KK has better punishes versus spacies except for gimping but M2K has stronger overall defense). Looking at a lot of high level play involving multiple sheik players really opens up the matchup and shows the different styles that these players have and let you see the matchup in multiple perspectives. Hope that helped - I'm still more or less a beginner at this game so take some of my advice with a grain of salt.

P.S: Don't challenge early falco dairs with your tilts - it'll eat them up clean. Get him with random, obscure aerials, needles and preferably grabs to rank up that first 30% or 40% - Even raw trades with him is good because his first 40% against you is one of his greatest advantages. Also watch out if he starts CCing shine your tilts at low percentage. If you can grab him, be sure to grab him. I can't stress this enough.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

i have a new found love for up throw and forward throw, on spacies. (down throw is still my #1 girl though, the others are just booty calls)

f-throw them toward the edge, when they're at the range where they wont be thrown off but not too lose in so that they're still in an awkward position.
they will forget everything they know about teching/rolling sheik's throws... then you can get something off easier. (this one isn't as legit)

up-throw them when they're at high (100+ area). if they don't DI you can get f-tilt fair (not sure about them DIing the the throw away)
at lower percents if up-throw them and they hit the ground, they might not get the tech due to timing so you can get a janky tech-chase

also dsmash does violate ass so hard


Edit: also I just found out that if you die as Zelda, with needles stored with sheik. You have your needles charged when you transform back to sheik after death.

edit: back throw also violates, how could i forget

 

[tauKhan]

I discovered today that transitioning from dj animation to normal fall cancels fast fall. So in order to get to ground asap after dj out of combo or to avoid aerial, you need to input ff twice, if you are high enough.

 

[hectohertz]

all this run-crouch-turnaround stuff is blowing my mind. definitely trying this **** out tn :D

 

[Alulim]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XIErXHdqmdA&feature=player_detailpage#t=715

At 11:57, M2K's downsmash beats PP's dair. Did PP merely mistime the dair such that its active frames had more or less ended before being hit by M2K at the edge of his downsmash or does downsmash's edge actually eat up Falco's dair?

 

[Stratocaster]

PP's dair was pretty much just starting up and is definitely active. I gave this a shot and dair usually wins or trades, but the spacing and timing is just amazing here... I couldn't even reproduce it in frame-by-frame (given I only tried for a couple minutes) but I know why it happens. The last hit of the dmash has the most priority (displacement) in the front of all the hits (not counting the invincible leg she has on the first frame) because the hitbox comes out and then Sheik pulls back her leg and because hitboxes drag a frame she gets some extra priority.

Attached is the frame M2K hits with (the hitlag makes it easier to find). You can kind of see how the front hitbox (right is the front) is a bit detached from the leg. It's enough to clip Falco out of his dair anyway.

 

[Alulim]

Holy ****. I can't believe how much massive downsmash's hitbox is. Many thanks for your explanation, attempt to replicate the situation and for showing me visually which frame downsmash beat dairs. It's blowing my mind right now - It might take me months but I might just have an answer to those dumb Falco aerials with enormous hitboxes outside of wavedashing away or forward tilting the early ones (still usually trades or beats me out haha).

 

[Stratocaster]

Just remember that's frame 23, so you really have to be a step ahead of them. A more reliable strategy is probably to make use of the invincibility on frame 5. What M2K did is a effective but more situational. IMO.

 

[Alulim]

Thanks for pointing it out. That's certainly true and seems to be more reliable though Sheik still faces the task of ensuring that Falco's dair doesn't come in contact with the hitbox located on her face haha.

 

[darkatma]

http://www.twitch.tv/windycitysmash/b/515554432?t=17m22s My sets with Kels, Tink, M2k at the recent tourney.

I had gone fox all day before these, so it took a little while to switch

 

[clowsui]

Good things are coming, Sheik boards.

Very, very good things...

 

[Ecoh]

Good things are coming, Sheik boards.

Very, very good things...

May we know what these good things are? :3

 

[keninblack]

How required is using using C-Stick for aerials? Obviously I know making the switch doesn't take too much time, but I just want to see if I can stick with what I'm doing.

 

[clowsui]

May we know what these good things are? :3

Starts with Kirby

ends with kaze returns to former glory

 

[SonuvaBeach]

How required is using using C-Stick for aerials? Obviously I know making the switch doesn't take too much time, but I just want to see if I can stick with what I'm doing.

I suppose it isn't required, but I can't imagine doing a lot of the things I do with Sheik without it. For example for retreating fairs, rising approaching bairs, moving dairs. It isn't too difficult to learn and it will definitely help in many situations.

 

[Alulim]

I've had the unfortunate pleasure of learning how to aerial with A + [Direction]. C-Stick is definitely much better, makes fast falling dairs for characters much easier, allows retreating fairs and such (though I think it can be done with A + [Direction], abet not as well), and even stuff like platform drop fairs to be much easier to perform.

I feel as though the only real advantage to A + [Direction] is easier instant uairs which are great for juggling.

... I should make the eventual transition to C-Stick (besides instant uairs) only.

 

[clowsui]

it's about comfort. dr peepee does all his aerials with A and he plays spacies, a much more input intensive character, and it's not like he's imprecise or inconsistent

 

[KirbyKaze]

Starts with Kirby

ends with kaze returns to former glory

I wouldn't be satisfied with that.

I wanna join the pantheon.

 

[clowsui]

Well you're already the god of my heart isn't that enough David???

Or are you just going to run off and find other men again like you always do ;(

 

[KirbyKaze]

If only you meant that. But alas you are a breeder and I'm am a fairy. We can never be

 

[JKJ]

it's about comfort. dr peepee does all his aerials with A and he plays spacies, a much more input intensive character, and it's not like he's imprecise or inconsistent

Dr Peepee does his aerials with A? No wAAAYYYY

 

[BrTarolg]

Couple of questions about sheik vs falco (PAL.. yeah i know)

Finally learning the matchup properly, also trying to improve my punish game a bit more

Besides chasing platform techs, how are people using dair's more? Some have told me that it can be really good for some edgeguarding?

Also does anyone have some flowcharts for edgeguarding falcos to see what options i can cover (assuming some recovery move is used so - high firebird-->ledge, high firebird --> stage, low firebird+short on time (not enough time to grab edge) illusion->ledge illusion->stage illusion->high stage) And like, which options i should be using/covering with what?
So far im using the fall off DJnair vs illusion sweetspot, though it fails vs everything else unless they firebird really close to stage (sometimes i can catch a high firebird going for the ledge with this) But i kind of do it semi blind/read based
Which ones can i react to? I can punish all (except low) firebirds by yolo jumping out but this is bad vs illusions
And of course, anything going for stage can be punished with tilts and stuff

I feel like atm i'm being too "blind/read" about it and if anyone knows some good reactionary cues that would be helpful

Also, i have a question about nairOOS. I know when being dair->shined theres kind of a mixup as to when he does it (so late dair-->do it right after the shine, early dair-->do it right after the dair) I'm trying to learn a few more places to use it properly
I'm told that i can use it on double lasers off edge - does anyone know the frames for this? (how long does lasers stun for in shield? - do i do it in between lasers? or after the second?) does anyone know how many frames lasers stun in general? Is there enough frames to grab instead?

---

Thanks for answers, my questions might be a bit long but i guess they are quite specific

 

[soap]

You guys keep jumping to the "dash backwards out of run" conclusion, but you're missing the part where you can do things like ftilt nearly instantly toward the opponent while running away, without having to use a WD to reset you. The biggest advantage of using this instead of a WD is that you don't telegraph your next action nearly as much.

I just came back to playing and practicing this game and funny that this is the stuff I was actually messing with

I was trying to find a way to dash behind shields and turn around and ftilt. Dash cancel as you pass the shield, walk a hair, and bam turn ftilt.

dash cancels also just feel alot more versatile to combo with. You don't need to plan out a wavedash to ftilt, you can just hit dash to follow the general DI, then make a game time call if you want to dash attack, ftilt, or fair. Wavedash kind of glues you to the ground with that bit of lag.

In terms of ftilt approach, I think you get a true crouch cancel in the event you were hit as you were getting into position, as opposed to wavedash I don't think the effect is the same

 

[hectohertz]

I just came back to playing and practicing this game and funny that this is the stuff I was actually messing with

I was trying to find a way to dash behind shields and turn around and ftilt. Dash cancel as you pass the shield, walk a hair, and bam turn ftilt.

dash cancels also just feel alot more versatile to combo with. You don't need to plan out a wavedash to ftilt, you can just hit dash to follow the general DI, then make a game time call if you want to dash attack, ftilt, or fair. Wavedash kind of glues you to the ground with that bit of lag.

In terms of ftilt approach, I think you get a true crouch cancel in the event you were hit as you were getting into position, as opposed to wavedash I don't think the effect is the same

i think using this "fast-like-tree" turnaround to grab would be really good.

 

[WHA?]

You can do the turnaround after crouching by flicking the control stick to crouch (instead of crouch, start walk animation, then you can do what u want)
Is this a less preferred method mainly because you dont get the Crouch cancel if you get hit?

 

[tauKhan]

You'll need to be very precise and fast if you flick the crouch: You need to then input dash on frame 7 or 8 after crouch, or you'll go into the crouch release that can't be interrupted with turnaround dash. Cactuar's method has also the advantage that you can stay in the crouch for as long as you want and still dash backwards.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Could someone tell me about the Ganon matchup? Ran into a legit ganon for the first time in tourney yesterday and didn't really know what to do

 

[BrTarolg]

Lol you're telling me i got knocked out from brackets a couple days ago by a ganon who chaingrabbed me from 0-90 every stock

Though he's known for it

Also im PAL so i can't do it back to him

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

Yea I got chaingrabbed a little too. Unfortunately I wasn't too sure how to DI it until after the match and my friend told me you're supposed to DI it up and away

 

[Purpletuce]

Up and the way he is facing gets you out by making you too high to regrab, down and behind him makes it so you go far behind him and it is harder to reach the regrab. . . I'm pretty sure.

 

[LightNeutrality]

I'm having trouble with the sheik samus match up anyone know some tips to winning the match up? anything helps.

 

[Guzzler Guzzler]

I'm having trouble with the sheik samus match up anyone know some tips to winning the match up? anything helps.

1 needle cancels a fully charged neutral b from samus

 

[BrTarolg]

up and away still chaingrabs to 70% afaik