Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[♡ⓛⓞⓥⓔ♡]

As I've been playing more, I've realized just how garbage my platform game on FoD is. It's gotten to the point where I have to ban that stage or else I'm free for a game. Can someone give me the rundown on the basics of how to work the stage? Main things I'd like to know are basic platform cycles and my options for standing on them and being underneath them.

Stay grounded and use tilts -> fair profit

 

[BTmoney]

As I've been playing more, I've realized just how garbage my platform game on FoD is. It's gotten to the point where I have to ban that stage or else I'm free for a game. Can someone give me the rundown on the basics of how to work the stage? Main things I'd like to know are basic platform cycles and my options for standing on them and being underneath them.

Don't jump on to them (ask yourself why you are jumping in the first place, sheik is a lot better on the ground most of the time)

a lot of your strongest options involve walking and threatening with ftilt, or wd back. I think on this stage it's definitely in your interest to slow down and simplify your game. Watch the way m2k uses the side platforms, stand slightly behind the center of them, throw needles, threaten with walk->ftilt (or grab when you think you can get one), WD back underneath the platforms to bait something out with bad spacing or whatever

you can crouch underneath the platforms and it can be hard for some characters to approach you with a SH/FH aerial, at low levels a lot of approaches get telegraphed. while crouching you can utilt/ftilt through the platforms into some nice followups and you are relatively safe

Watch good sheiks use the stage and try to literally emulate what they're doing. once you understand why and how things work, move forward and continue to add/takeaway things that you like/don't like and things that work/don't work

and as far as "platform cycles" go you're probably thinking about things wrong. sheik isn't like a spacie or falcon where you can make pretty good use of running around the stage and jumping around a lot. keep in mind that sheik is pretty bad at approaching compared to all the viable characters but her ground game (and aerials when properly used) is still amazing. if you need to stand on a platform it better be for a reason before you get scooped up by a spacie's rising bair (which you can't really beat from above), a falcon uair, or a marth uair. you don't want to be above your opponent much as sheik unless it's for a good reason

 

[Luminoth64]

i went to my first decently sized tournament this past saturday and ended up playing against my first decent falco. what am i supposed to do about his shield pressure game? i felt pretty clueless as to what to do about his approaches. XD could anyone enlighten me on what i need to work on to prevent that?

 

[Alulim]

i went to my first decently sized tournament this past saturday and ended up playing against my first decent falco. what am i supposed to do about his shield pressure game? i felt pretty clueless as to what to do about his approaches. XD could anyone enlighten me on what i need to work on to prevent that?

Roll oos, Nair oos after the shine, spot dodge oos before the shine, grab if the dair is too high, etc.

 

[Laudandus]

If you are up in percent / stocks against a Falcon and aren't M2K, is ledge stalling still a good idea? I wasn't exactly sure how to execute it, but I feel like Falcon doesn't have options that are -that- strong against it and it's really good for Sheik if he takes the ledge and she ends up on the stage without getting hit.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Up-B stall is okay until you realize you can hog people for it and then they're dead.

 

[Laudandus]

Not exclusively up-B stall, just ledge camping in general

 

[KirbyKaze]

Eww edge camping

 

[Xyzz]

If you are up in percent / stocks against a Falcon and aren't M2K, is ledge stalling still a good idea? I wasn't exactly sure how to execute it, but I feel like Falcon doesn't have options that are -that- strong against it and it's really good for Sheik if he takes the ledge and she ends up on the stage without getting hit.

If Sheik has to land her up b on the stage, stomp to reverse knee is easy to execute, tacks on nice percent, and leads to an edgeguard situation (or kill). I think that's a fairly strong option

 

[Teczer0]

Up-B stall is okay until you realize you can hog people for it and then they're dead.

And when you steal that edge you feel like you're the best player for a few seconds.

 

[Alulim]

I sometimes ledge camp / up B stall to recover 'shield hp' when I take too much shield damage from spacies' shffl shine pressure.
Dangerous part is not mixing the stalls up right and getting fox shined / falco dair'd and dying I guess.

 

[Xyzz]

If you're getting shines / daired, the problem is not 'failing to mix it up', but rather 'failing to execute properly''; Sheik should be completely intangible throughout the stall. (Unless you were talking about mixups designed to prevent them from the stealing the ledge from you)

 

[Alulim]

Just checked the frame data for the stall - It says invincible during 18-55 while lasting for a total of 94 frames. Doesn't that mean you can get hit out in the first 17 frames?

For instance, when Dr. PP knocks out M2K during the startup frames of Sheik's up B in the APEX 2014 Grand Finals (as listed below):
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwGAk_hbFc&feature=player_detailpage#t=80

Another question - After becoming invincible, does drop and immediate rejump/upair back to the ledge invincible all throughout it's animation (or are the invincibility frames not enough)?

For instance, M2K is performing as I've mentioned here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VwGAk_hbFc&feature=player_detailpage#t=105

 

[moogle]

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-123#post-9145037
http://www.ssbwiki.com/Ledgestall

For every character (except Link), you get 37 frames of invincibility when you grab the ledge. You have to spend the first 8 of those holding on to the ledge. After that, you can do anything with your remaining 29 invincibility frames. If you're frame-perfect, then those 29 frames will easily cover that 18 frame window of vulnerability at the start of Sheik's up-b. But you don't have to be perfect. You have 10-11 frames of leeway each cycle in order to be fully invincible.

That is, until your opponent grabs the ledge from you.

To directly answer your questions, Alulim:
1. In the PP/M2K video at 1:23, M2K hadn't grabbed the ledge anytime recently (he did walljump>bair just before using up-b), so his up-b had that 18-frame window of vulnerability at the start, and PP's dair connected right near the end of that window.
2. Apparently only Captain Falcon, Ganondorf, Link, Roy, and Bowser can be fully invincible by cycling with fastfall>rejump. I don't think any character can cycle fully-invincible uairs (or any aerial), but I could be wrong.

 

[Alulim]

Great explanation. I really appreciate it. Thank you.

Just one more thing - I mistyped 'up-B' as 'upair' without realizing it. Sheik's Up-B is strange in the sense where if there isn't enough distance between you and the ledge, you can 'sweet-spot' an up-B that doesn't have the 'Poof' or red fog animation that it normally has. It looks extremely deceptive and almost looks identical to a jump (abet more like a jump with a slight, slight arc forward). Is it safe to assume that stalling with this specific part of Sheik's up-B not fully invincible throughout its animation upon attempting to re-grab the ledge (under the assumption that you've already acquired invincibility frames from grabbing the ledge one time already).

 

[moogle]

I don't have a Gamecube on hand right now to test this, but I think using the beginning of Sheik's up-b (I don't know a good name for that) in order to grab the edge over and over would in fact be fully invincible. One way to test it would be to go to Brinstar, and try to cycle your invincibility in the rising lava/acid. Here's the traditional up-b stall (aka the Shino stall) on Brinstar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQUYsm2mFUM#t=288

I'd say the main reason Shino stalling is preferred over using just the first part of the up-b is that you get the explosion hitbox 1-2 times a second using the Shino stall, which makes it a lot harder for your opponent to edgehog you. I don't see much added benefit to only using the first part of the up-b to cycle invincibility, except that it might be easier to do.

 

[darkatma]

Why are we discussing ways to make ourselves even more lame on the ledge? Time for sheiks to focus on their lackluster stage games.

Since sheik is predominantly a zoning character, she has to have the capacity to threaten and create space as well as the ability to release that space and use it to trap opponents. Most sheiks are good at the latter, but not so good at the former. Anyways if we take this to be the "correct" way to play sheik, it becomes apparent that the pure ledge zoning sheik is just an extensive gimmick. I believe played that way sheik will never reach the top (why M2k and Ice's sheiks fall short), because at the top people simply refuse to play the ledge game, since center stage gives much more control.

This isn't to say that ledgeplay isn't important. Gimps give you stock advantage, tricking many opponents to approach brashly. I just think that more care and theorycrafting needs to go into retaking stage after you have been walled out. What that entails I am not quite sure.

 

[The Real Gamer]

Who are some other good Sheiks to watch and learn fundamentals besides M2K/Kirbykaze?

 

[hectohertz]

Ice, Overtriforce, Tope, Drephen (with a grain of salt)

 

[Alulim]

Thanks for the response again! I'll be sure to test it.
@Dark - Not sure if you were being rhetorical or not, but not having a solid ledge-stall game developed for Sheik is disastrous IMO. By being hit off just because you didn't properly space your Up-B stall or somehow missed the your stall in time could lead to stocks lost rather stupidly. Even now, most Sheiks probably aren't aware that their stalling game has gaps - What's very important (though of course not as much as developing the neutral game) is to improve your stall game by maximizing the number of exploits you can utilize involving the invincibility from the ledge combined with mixing up methods to stall the ledge such that opponents will not be able to steal it from you.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why are we discussing ways to make ourselves even more lame on the ledge? Time for sheiks to focus on their lackluster stage games.

Since sheik is predominantly a zoning character, she has to have the capacity to threaten and create space as well as the ability to release that space and use it to trap opponents. Most sheiks are good at the latter, but not so good at the former. Anyways if we take this to be the "correct" way to play sheik, it becomes apparent that the pure ledge zoning sheik is just an extensive gimmick. I believe played that way sheik will never reach the top (why M2k and Ice's sheiks fall short), because at the top people simply refuse to play the ledge game, since center stage gives much more control.

This isn't to say that ledgeplay isn't important. Gimps give you stock advantage, tricking many opponents to approach brashly. I just think that more care and theorycrafting needs to go into retaking stage after you have been walled out. What that entails I am not quite sure.

I'm back baby don't worry

The confusing weird times are over

<3

 

[SSB_Hello]

Someone hack melee to play Danger Zone when a sheik is on the ledge.

 

[darkatma]

I'm back baby don't worry

The confusing weird times are over

<3

Where have you been my whole life D: (aka all of last year)

 

[Alulim]

I want somebody to hack melee so that hitboxes can be displayed while characters are fighting. That'd be unbelievably awesome to use to practice how to exploit hitboxes in game haha.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Where have you been my whole life D: (aka all of last year)

Doing battle with myself

 

[Luma]

I don't have a Gamecube on hand right now to test this, but I think using the beginning of Sheik's up-b (I don't know a good name for that) in order to grab the edge over and over would in fact be fully invincible. One way to test it would be to go to Brinstar, and try to cycle your invincibility in the rising lava/acid. Here's the traditional up-b stall (aka the Shino stall) on Brinstar: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BQUYsm2mFUM#t=288

I'd say the main reason Shino stalling is preferred over using just the first part of the up-b is that you get the explosion hitbox 1-2 times a second using the Shino stall, which makes it a lot harder for your opponent to edgehog you. I don't see much added benefit to only using the first part of the up-b to cycle invincibility, except that it might be easier to do.

try doing those when you edgeguard someone like a marth or peach, you dont want to him them obviously (check Armada vs Ice @ Beast3)

 

[Kaffei]

Is this a legit punish against Puff if she misses Rest:

Falling needles (at least 2) > grab > pummel > aerial

 

[darkatma]

Yes, unless they SDI away on the needles.

 

[Alulim]

^ If you needle (with enough needles and at the right position), is a grab guaranteed if the needles hit the opponent?
Think I saw M2K spotdodge some of KK's needle grabs today.

 

[thundrio]

If you up-B to the ledge perfectly, can you be hit by a fox/falco's smash attack from the edge of the stage? I was messing around by going vs 3 lv 9 fox cpus on a team, and maybe discovered that I can practice up-b to ledge this way, since all three foxes are constantly spamming smash attacks as I get to the ledge. It seemed like if I teleported to grab the bottom of the ledge perfectly they couldn't hit me, but sometimes they could. I can't tell if that's just because I'm not teleporting to the right place, or if it is just the timing of the smash attacks and I can't do anything (with where I teleport to).

 

[KirbyKaze]

Is this a legit punish against Puff if she misses Rest:

Falling needles (at least 2) > grab > pummel > aerial

It works but it's hard to do / sucks.

^ If you needle (with enough needles and at the right position), is a grab guaranteed if the needles hit the opponent?
Think I saw M2K spotdodge some of KK's needle grabs today.

M2K sidestepped my needles because in a lot of those situations I wasn't close enough to the ground or I was too far for the needles --> grab to true-combo so I had to dash JC grab / dash grab if I wanted to pursue him but then he countered that with a sidestep.

Needle grab is great but it has some limitations. I need better plays once I get M2K below me and shielding. I've got some ideas though. I also need to handle his d-smashes better. I've got some ideas for those too. I'm pretty sad I failed every single ground tech I went for. I'm gonna have to check if I can ground tech on YS in those positions though. Looking back, I'm wondering if the slope had something to do with it not working (and if so, then can I use that against him?).

It's good to be competing again though.

 

[darkatma]

It works but it's hard to do / sucks.



M2K sidestepped my needles because in a lot of those situations I wasn't close enough to the ground or I was too far for the needles --> grab to true-combo so I had to dash JC grab / dash grab if I wanted to pursue him but then he countered that with a sidestep.

Needle grab is great but it has some limitations. I need better plays once I get M2K below me and shielding. I've got some ideas though. I also need to handle his d-smashes better. I've got some ideas for those too. I'm pretty sad I failed every single ground tech I went for. I'm gonna have to check if I can ground tech on YS in those positions though. Looking back, I'm wondering if the slope had something to do with it not working (and if so, then can I use that against him?).

It's good to be competing again though.

I wanted to tell you that they don't work on YS because of the slope. Conversely they work to insane percents on DK64 slopes. You have to ASDI with the C stick perpendicular to the slope, but doing so on YS still doesn't give you enough downwards movement to touch it and stick.

Your tourney winner ledgejumps make me cringe. You do them so much, it's frustrating D:

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yeah I need to get into the habit of releasing the stick as soon as I see that I'm gonna grab the edge.

 

[Purpletuce]

KK, any chance you're interesting in Northwest Manifest?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm interested but funds are low.

 

[Luminoth64]

i'm wondering if anyone else has this problem with their controller playing sheik, if you use a non-wihite cube controller.

when i dash off a platform or run to the edge to throw needles, sometimes my control stick forces sheik to turn the other direction as if i inputted a reversal, even though i didn't. i have three controllers that do this. (teal, orange and black) it happens with other characters too, but mostly as sheik due to her fast movement i think.

has anyone else ever had this issue? if so, is it fixable? >_<

 

[Palmerfan]

i'm wondering if anyone else has this problem with their controller playing sheik, if you use a non-wihite cube controller.

when i dash off a platform or run to the edge to throw needles, sometimes my control stick forces sheik to turn the other direction as if i inputted a reversal, even though i didn't. i have three controllers that do this. (teal, orange and black) it happens with other characters too, but mostly as sheik due to her fast movement i think.

has anyone else ever had this issue? if so, is it fixable? >_<

No problems here with my 2 black and 1 orange... I hate to suggest it and don't want to sound like a ****, but could it be user error? Have you carefully tried to do it and see if it still messes up? If not, it could be a problem with your sticks on your controllers.

 

[Sempai]

Ive been perusing the sheik boards but I cant seem to find a good follow up for a grab at really low % in the ditto.

Most of the time I grab dthrow, and they di away, the only option I see is ftilt and away they fly and the combos over.

Im pretty sure you can get a utilt into a regrab at low percents if they die in or up, but does anybody know a better followup then ftilt if they di away. (minus chaingrabbing )

 

[Purpletuce]

Regrab.

KK, I hope you can come. . . D:

 

[Sempai]

i guess you can get away with 1 regrab and not get called out for chain grabbing

I seem to have problems killing floaties off a grab with dthtor uair, when they di away I cant seem to get there in time, you think im jumping too early? or at certain percents does dthrow to uair just not connect anymore?