Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Laudandus]

i guess you can get away with 1 regrab and not get called out for chain grabbing

I seem to have problems killing floaties off a grab with dthtor uair, when they di away I cant seem to get there in time, you think im jumping too early? or at certain percents does dthrow to uair just not connect anymore?

If someone starts doing 1 regrab to me, chain throws are now on as far as I'm concerned

 

[Sempai]

thats what I would rather avoid. chain grabbing sheik on sheik is just so.... degenerate.

 

[Luminoth64]

No problems here with my 2 black and 1 orange... I hate to suggest it and don't want to sound like a ****, but could it be user error? Have you carefully tried to do it and see if it still messes up? If not, it could be a problem with your sticks on your controllers.

i know it's not a user error because it doesn't happen with my white controller. >_< i do the same motions with it and the problem doesn't occur with it. my friends also tested my controllers and had the same issue haha.

 

[Luminoth64]

Zzzz double post. Internet was being goofy.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I tech chase the first two regrabs to get them to about 20%. You could also try to jab grab or jab them and read their double jump. But I prefer the tech chase cuz I'm me.

Anyway, once they're grabbed at 20%, at that point your dash attack and f-tilt go online so freestyle is an option. Sheik's combo game on herself is pretty straight forward once you get her good moves on.

Chain grab dittos are meh.

 

[Sempai]

does utilt regrab work on basically every di except away DIs?

 

[SacaSuMoto]

yo kk, i haven't been able to use back hits of dsmash effectively.

 

[KirbyKaze]

The 2nd and 3rd hits of d-smash were kind of a joke, kind of not. I've been getting a lot of mileage out of hitting the end hits in combos because the lower KB + hitting with a later part of the move is often very convenient for setting up follow ups. If you watch my set with Weon-X from ROM7, on BF in the third game (I think his last stock?) I hit him out of his sidestep with the last two hits of d-smash and am able to follow up with another d-smash and set up an edgeguard that kills him whereas if I'd hit with the first hit (or a more conventional combo move, which would be easier to react to) then he probably would had a better chance of avoiding the stock conversion.

The back hits of d-smash also have a higher hitbox above you than the initial hit, so it's more likely to trade with aerials coming down on top, which can be good vs stuff like Fox's dair although the timing is tricky and I wouldn't recommend it as a go-to option. It's just something to keep in mind though; I've gotten a lot of combos started by d-smashing after a Fox is sort of committed above me ('cuz they DJed, trying to bait a tilt or something but I didn't swing on it and now they're committed to coming down on top of me but they still have a big space to drift) and I'm not sure exactly where they're gonna land exactly so I throw it out and it trades with their dair, nicks their air-dodge, etc. and then often I can go ham and kill them from there.

D-smash is amazing.

Incidentally, I need to step up my game against it because it's by far the biggest thing that M2K does that destroys me. And when I look back on my history in Sheik dittos, it occurs to me that the only Sheik who's ever spanked me in dittos other than M2K is Drephen (eons ago at P4). So yeah. Can't put this off any longer. Gotta learn how to beat d-smash / sidestep / play around M2K's edge game & general speed. I got idea though...

Oh yeah when I get back from TNE I'm gonna be starting SSBM Tutorials that focus on the PvP aspect of the game. The first episode is gonna deal with a really old concept, but it's important to know as a beginner because it set the ground work for all the spacing-based combat strategies that we see today. It will be an analysis and breakdown of Cactuar's "Far & Close Spacing" principle, with my own commentary and examples on how this translates across some of the basis combat forms (dash dance characters, poking characters, air-mobility characters, WD characters) and I'll give some examples of it in certain matchups. There will be a QnA after too.

I suggest you be there. Date to be announced after I get back.

 

[KirbyKaze]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wSdP90WXKtk&feature=youtu.be

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2GEv6rAzShg&feature=youtu.be

A present for you guys. Videos from the January MNIC in Toronto, the WF and GF sets between me and the lovely & talented Weon-X. They're on Syphilis's YT channel instead of the normal one or MeleeAtlNorth because Weon-X was supposed to upload them but he's failing completely. So she uploaded these privately. And I wanted you guys to see them because there's a lot of good anti-Fox stuff in them.

So I hope you enjoy!!

 

[darkatma]

Weon-X is indeed lovely and talented. I watched those already and demand more

 

[KP17]

i would like to see sheiks incorporate new technology that i discovered a while ago (i dont think ive seen this anywhere else)

sheik, as well as every other char, can dash backwards out of crouch. IDK if there is a frame or not of standing up but it doesnt matter very much. to prove this, pause in crouch and simply hold back.

This means sheik can dash backwards out of a run! thats sounds pretty cool right? It looks really fast, possibly 1 or 2 frames between crouch state and dash state. as opposed to WD down dash back (at least 8 or so frames) or crouch release crouch dash back (4 or 5 frames?)

my frame data definitely isnt accurate but im testing now and the crouch-dash back looks much faster.

note: its much easier to perform this technique out of pause. there are specifics to the anolog stick movement that make this possible. I know that you cannot move the stick through the neutral position, but it seems like a quarter circle back isnt 100% correct either.

 

[darkatma]

I've never heard of that. Are you certain you aren't dashing forward and then switching directions?

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah it's certainly possible, I use it sometimes. However, you cant dash from initial crouch animation, so you have to wait a bit. Also you cant dash from crouch release, so you must input dash without going through neutral stick position.

Edit: To be more precise, you can't turn while in initial crouch or crouch release. If you hold backwards while in crouch you will perform turn around, which will be cancelled into dash.

 

[hectohertz]

cancelling dash into crouch is called dash cancelling.

kadano had a detailed writeup of it. unless there's some new tech here i'm missing

 

[KP17]

yes you completely missed it hectohertz.

cancelling crouch into dash, backwards. sorry i dont have a video capturing device.

im saying that you can in fact dash out of the crouch animation! (with uncertainty about 1 standing frame) I thought it was common knowledge that you can dash forwards out of crouch without crouch release, but I was stating you can dash backwards if your control stick movement is linear from down to back.

darkatma, yes im sure. its really really easy to test using the pause method.

edit: so you can dash into run into crouch (thats the dash cancelling, a common technique) into dash back. honestly a vid would be really convenient to show how fluid the motion is. if anybody wants to upload a vid be my guest

second edit: crouch animation takes x amount of frames (probably 3?); dash back has to be inputted after your char (sheik) is fully in the crouch state

 

[tauKhan]

crouch animation takes x amount of frames (probably 3?); dash back has to be inputted after your char (sheik) is fully in the crouch state

Because there is 3 frame buffer on turnarounds and dashes you could propably input dash back on the first frame of initial crouch, and still get dash. So you can't miss it for inputting too fast.

 

[KP17]

i dont think thats true.... can you find a reputable source to confirm that (about the buffer)? and no inputting dash back on the first frame of initial crouch doesn't work. that being said waiting for the full crouch state to dash back is still fast as hell.

 

[tauKhan]

Hmm... perhaps the initial crouch is too long, or then im just wrong.
I remember Strong Bad talking about buffers, here's what i found:

actions requiring smash inputs buffer for 3 frames. e.g. fastfall, dash, etc.
additionally jumps buffer for 20 frames during hitstun.

 

[KP17]

oh. cool.

ill test it more when i have the chance. for now, instead of talking about frame data, can we go ahead and talk about tactical applications of dashing back out of crouch? maybe tech chase situations? i feel like WD back is superior in some neutral game situations bc it keeps forward facing options open, esp ftilt.

 

[tauKhan]

For a start, sheiks could maybe use it to make their dash dancing more effective. I feel like the shortness of her initial dash really hinders her ability to move while dash dancing. However, using backwards dashes from run you could essentially extend your dashes and move like marth. Though her dashes may still be to slow for them to work like marths dashes do.

You could also use it as bating tool like dash dance: run toward the opponent, crouch, then dash backwards to avoid your opponents response and then dash toward him to punish. This could be slightly more versatile than simply run into wavedash back, because when you wavedash back, you have to chose your wavedash length before knowing the opponents reaction. Also, if you wavedash back, you'll have backwards momentum which makes your dash toward the opponent slower.

Edit: Messed around with this a bit. Turned out I don't understand the game. You CAN dash forward from crouch release but not backward for some reason. You also can't turn around regularly from crouch: If you do, you'll go through crouch release first, but if you smash input, you'll perform dash backwards. It does have a normal pivot frame, so it turns around, then dashes after but it doesn't cancel momentum, like pivot dash from another dash does.

 

[KP17]

i like that

im not a sheik player im a falco player, just wanted to throw this info at you guys

and falco boards make me really unhappy

 

[darkatma]

I'll check this out when I get home. I think Cactuar's been using what you're talking about a lot recently. http://smashboards.com/threads/2014...nowledge-updated-1-2-14.339520/#post-16153183 frame data for dash stuff.

Sounds promising though! I'll try to upload a clip of it if I can get it down (and credit you, of course).

 

[tauKhan]

Yeah you're right. Just watched cactuar vs darrell RoM7 vid, and he used crouch to backwards dashes a lot. He even did it between stocks. Also I just realized, that it's easier to just walk forward into backward dash, and only loses you 1 frame.

 

[Cactuar]

Not surprised at the Sheik's boards seeing it before everyone else.

The correct series of inputs is:

Run->Cancel Run with Crouch->Cancel Crouch with Walk Forward->Dash Backward out of Walk

On the control stick, this looks like:

Hold forward->Quartercircle to down->Quartercircle to forward->Straight line from forward to back

SHORYUKEN

 

[tauKhan]

Not surprised at the Sheik's boards seeing it before everyone else.

The correct series of inputs is:

Run->Cancel Run with Crouch->Cancel Crouch with Walk Forward->Dash Backward out of Walk

On the control stick, this looks like:

Hold forward->Quartercircle to down->Quartercircle to forward->Straight line from forward to back

SHORYUKEN

Other method is flicking downwards, like pivot stops, then dash back before initial crouch ends, so you won't go into crouch release, but will buffer the dash. You can also just move the stick from straight down to straight back. But I also prefer using walk.

 

[Cactuar]

Ya, I chose to commit to the walk method because the crouch position sets up the choice to dash backwards, stand your ground, or dash forward. I played around with alternate methods and ended up ditching them.

Combining this tech with the also old school tech of using teeter cancels out of run is ridiculously good btw. Makes you look like you can change direction from anywhere on the stage, including being able to bounce off the edges back into the stage, like a wrestler bouncing off the ropes in a ring, or teeter into instant tilt/smash/shield into falloff/w.e. (utilt for fox, ftilt for sheik, etc)

 

[tauKhan]

Would you mind telling us what motivated you to learn this? I thought about implementing them some half year ago, but didn't bother since I could just use dash cancels into forward dashes and wavedashes to start dash dances from run. Also, the initial crouch lasts quite long, so when you do this, you're more committed to your placement than if you are just dash dancing.

 

[KP17]

walking forward from crouch does make the process a bit easier at the expense of taking a tad bit longer and extending your hurtboxes, which you may or may not want. keep in mind that i was proposing that sheiks dash backwards directly out of the crouch animation. may be useful in certain situations where moving forward is not desirable

e.g. run up crouch as a bait vs fox, and dashing back to out space the incoming drill then dashing back with a JC grab

or crouching vs falco's lasers, and you want to stay low to avoid the next laser, and at the same time you want to move back because falco is closing in on space and you don't want to be hit by laser shine especially if you see it coming

that being said cactuars method is great if you want to keep your options open *after* the crouch, so you could either walk forward ftilt or walk forward dash back if you want to avoid something

 

[tauKhan]

walking forward from crouch does make the process a bit easier at the expense of taking a tad bit longer and extending your hurtboxes, which you may or may not want. keep in mind that i was proposing that sheiks dash backwards directly out of the crouch animation. may be useful in certain situations where moving forward is not desirable

e.g. run up crouch as a bait vs fox, and dashing back to out space the incoming drill then dashing back with a JC grab

or crouching vs falco's lasers, and you want to stay low to avoid the next laser, and at the same time you want to move back because falco is closing in on space and you don't want to be hit by laser shine especially if you see it coming

that being said cactuars method is great if you want to keep your options open *after* the crouch, so you could either walk forward ftilt or walk forward dash back if you want to avoid something

It takes exactly 1 frame longer + whatever you lose in input speed. You can cancel your walk immediately into dash.

 

[Cactuar]

I play DK in Melee Online and needed something to be able to approach the opponent while still keeping the threat of bair available.

The problem with wavedash out of run is that it telegraphs your intention to make a change to your movement. Similarly, using a crouch to dash forward out of run to change direction will move you significantly enough to trigger that same reaction, and tip the opponent off that you have reestablished your dash dance.

Being in run and then nearly instantly changing directions allows you to really mess with their perception of your dash dance length and opens up big windows of opportunity that can't be reacted to.


@ KP17 :

You don't actually move forward at all when you cancel crouch with walk forward using tight timing.

If you go straight from crouch to dash back, you have to wait for crouch release to complete afaik, making it inferior to walk->dash from the crouch position.

I actually need to check if you can cancel the initial crouch with that walk forward though, as that would be a huge advantage.

 

[tauKhan]

Neat I only just today got the idea to use this with dks bair. I think problem with dash canceling is you can't do it too close to your opponent without exposing yourself to grabs. I think using wavedash you can react better as it starts moving faster. Also you can't cancel initial crouch with walk.
@ Cactuar You can indeed dash straight back out of crouch if you don't trigger crouch release: you have to either dash fast enough or avoid neutral position with control stick.

 

[KP17]

cactuar, you dont need to go through any frames of crouch release to dash back from crouch. that was my purpose of starting this particular discussion a day or two ago

 

[Stratocaster]

When you crouch, after your initial crouch you can dash back if you do it in 1 frame. What you have to do is crouch, keep holding down through the initial crouch animation (then hold as long as you want and wait as much or as little as you wish), then turn the stick the the direction behind you quickly. What I do is exaggerate the movement and aim for up-behind and I can do it 90% of the time, and I'm not a particularly technical player and don't practice this often. However, I have been doing this.

You can't cancel the initial crouch with any kind of walk or dash.

Your walk -> dash back method is kinda cool and the walk can be buffered so you can do it ASAP easily and has a bigger window, but holding down -> dash back quickly is technically quicker, not really hard to do even though it technically has a 1 frame window, and holds no disadvantages as far as I can tell. Something to think about.

 

[tauKhan]

@ Stratocaster How many frames long is the initial crouch? If you time it well, you could just buffer dash out of crouch during initial crouch.

 

[Stratocaster]

Initial crouch is 7 frames. You can input the dash back on 6 or 7, so there is a buffer window but not a huge one. If you are not holding down or dashing back on frame 7 then on frame 8 you will go into the crouch stand animation, which is lame. I think this window is too small to use because you have to have timing with respect to when you crouched really well. The method I described just requires a certain motion.

Cactuar is talking about how he wants the ability to hold his position though too, which is why I suggest the method I do. If you just want to turn around in a run by dashing back then yeah dashing back on frame 7 is ideal but a little difficult to do consistently I think.

 

[KP17]

why does crouch -> pause -> hold back -> unpause work then?

 

[tauKhan]

Because you'll only go to crouch release if your stick is in the neutral position.
Edit: Come to think of it, I don't know why you are able to dash without going through neutral position.

 

[KP17]

yeah i realize that but im confused by statocasters post. it seems as if the dash can be inputted on any frame

 

[Frost | Odds]

Goddamnit Cactuar, Harbinger of Green Prickly 20XX

 

[Stratocaster]

Let me try to clarify KP17.

There are two different things I'm talking about.

1 is dashing back directly from crouch, HOLDING CROUCH DOWN. This is the same thing you're talking about. You just have to do it fast enough that it skips the crouch release animation.

2 is buffering from the initial crouch, FLICKING DOWN AND RELEASING as tauKhan suggested. For this you only can input the dash back on frames 6 and 7 because on frame 8 you are in the crouch release animation.

Does that clarify things? It's sometimes difficult to communicate this type of thing.