Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[BrTarolg]

So Question round 2:

Powersheilding lasers and their hitstun

Is it a different timing for high/low/medium lasers? I can always do medium and low but not high

Also, how many frames does it flinch you for before you can act again (both in air and on ground?)

 

[EddyBearr]

How punishable is SH nair oos?

 

[Sweet™]

Let's talk upthrow > jab > regrab on FF'ers if they DI in front. It works just about every time I try it against the person I play with a lot.

 

[Alulim]

They can just roll tech or CC shine to destroy you. Only reason I see to upthrow is to throw the opponent onto a platform so you can tech chase with dair (though it feels pretty wasteful when downthrow tech chasing is more guaranteed).

 

[hectohertz]

uthrow -> jab is totally escapable with proper DI. on FF'ers, dthrow is generally better because you get more frame advantage for tech chasing, and you can get also still get a hard punish if they DI badly.

on falcon you can get u-throw -> tilt at certain percents tho. (@ KirbyKaze when does this work and is it only on certain DIs)?

oh and as noted before, u-throw is good to put people on platforms

 

[Sweet™]

Can't a guy dream...

 

[ShroudedOne]

With Sheik?

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I was thinking that Sheik could potentially have the same dash dancing effectiveness as Fox, Falcon, and Marth. However, I have heard two opinions that Sheik would prefer to avoid doing such since she has such strong options otherwise. Falcon/Marth sort of need to rely upon a DD method I believe since their normal attacks are pretty poor without it. Sheik on the other hand has very strong neutrals A attacks which would be preferred over the potential gain of trying to DD.

 

[tauKhan]

Sheik's dash is very short and she can dash cancel very fast, so she can threaten with tilts from a short distance. I think the biggest problem is that vs the fast characters her dash isn't fast enough. It might also just be more effective to mix in running and wds. Marths love running dtilts, but their dash is so long, that it's often difficult for them to get enough distance for run approach. If marths could run cancel like sheiks, perhaps they too would dash dance less and run more.

 

[KirbyKaze]

u-throw never works if they know how to DI it unless you have a very specific position relative to a side platform.

 

[KirbyKaze]

So Question round 2:

Powersheilding lasers and their hitstun

Is it a different timing for high/low/medium lasers? I can always do medium and low but not high

Also, how many frames does it flinch you for before you can act again (both in air and on ground?)

It's a different timing yes. Because your PS hitbox is a circle around the middle of Sheik's body. Therefore, the timing closer to the middle of the circle going to be sooner because the circle sticks out more there, and for lower / higher it will be later.

16 if unstaled, 12 if staled.

How punishable is SH nair oos?

It can be very punishable. In my recent set with Mango I hit his shield with nair OOS and moved away from him as far as I could and he still managed to WD OOS shine me for it. I'm pretty sure some of the high level Foxes here have done that to me too.

I'm now vaguely interested to know if Sheik can grab herself if another Sheik nairs OOS on her shield. Off to the lab I guess...

I was thinking that Sheik could potentially have the same dash dancing effectiveness as Fox, Falcon, and Marth. However, I have heard two opinions that Sheik would prefer to avoid doing such since she has such strong options otherwise. Falcon/Marth sort of need to rely upon a DD method I believe since their normal attacks are pretty poor without it. Sheik on the other hand has very strong neutrals A attacks which would be preferred over the potential gain of trying to DD.

Her dash dance is incredibly effective for certain things but using dash dance as a primary strategy works better for those characters because their offensive tools are inherently more powerful (fast SHFFLs, stronger frame traps off said SHFFLs, Marth's d-tilt, a shine, Marth grab, gentleman, etc).

Sheik is more layered. You will not find much success with trying to overpower your opponent with speed like those three characters. You have to make the opponent afraid of your counterattack and then observe how they're playing around it (ex. if they're playing around f-tilt, they're gonna be dash dancing closer when you SH back but they'll maintain a certain space even after you land from the aerial). This maintenance of space & pre-meditated expectation of f-tilt is a commitment; both in terms of actions (they have to move & position themselves in this manner) and in terms of how much attention they can pay to something (human reaction time is faster when something expected happens & slower when something unexpected happens). So if you can figure out what they're playing against, you can create a lot of openings by simply not doing... whatever it is they're expecting / already playing around.


edit:

Running into dash cancel is amazing if you're really far. Walking is also very good with this character in general. Trots are also very good in general.

 

[hectohertz]

whoa. plz write more KK these posts each make me better at melee

 

[Sweet™]

Is there a flow chart anywhere for what exactly we should be doing at all times.

 

[dkuo]

if i was still in erie id gladly theorycraft with you sweet

alas, it is not to be

 

[KirbyKaze]

whoa. plz write more KK these posts each make me better at melee

Ask good questions and I will answer them.

Is there a flow chart anywhere for what exactly we should be doing at all times.

No.

 

[EddyBearr]

It can be very punishable. In my recent set with Mango I hit his shield with nair OOS and moved away from him as far as I could and he still managed to WD OOS shine me for it. I'm pretty sure some of the high level Foxes here have done that to me too.

I'm now vaguely interested to know if Sheik can grab herself if another Sheik nairs OOS on her shield. Off to the lab I guess...

How important would you consider nair OOS mastery for a Sheik's game, and are there any characters you should avoid using the technique on? I feel like it's great against taller characters, but bad (or at least much less rewarding and much riskier) against Fox-or-shorter and Marth (due to Marth spacing into grab punish). Should it be any good against fox if you're fast enough with it, or would you try to avoid it unless you think it'll hit for non-technical reasons?

 

[d z]

kk good stuff at goml, you were swaggin out pretty hard with that rest punish on hbox, that combo on mango on fd, and those ledge dash sh nairs (those were sooooooo clean!!)

I was wondering what your thoughts were on dthrow follow ups on puff with no/behind di at lowish percents? I've been playing around with full hop instant uair lately and it seems really solid leading into another uair or maybe fair. I can't tell if that's legit or if Im just playing bad puffs and if double jumping after a good puff would put me in a bad spot. Sometimes I just utilt or sh uair but those don't really seem to lead to much. Unfortunately its so freakin hard to grab puff so I didn't see this situation in your match with hbox this weekend but I was hoping for your input so I could be ready if the situation does arise.

 

[KirbyKaze]

How important would you consider nair OOS mastery for a Sheik's game, and are there any characters you should avoid using the technique on? I feel like it's great against taller characters, but bad (or at least much less rewarding and much riskier) against Fox-or-shorter and Marth (due to Marth spacing into grab punish). Should it be any good against fox if you're fast enough with it, or would you try to avoid it unless you think it'll hit for non-technical reasons?

SH Nair is really important vs Falco and Fox. I even like it in Sheik dittos just 'cuz it's one of the ways you can attack SH fair spam from your shield when you're cornered. But you should be aware of percentages when you're doing it.

It has some applications in basically every matchup but I'd say Falcon and Marth are the two it's least good in. Because all those two are really trying to do is grab you and their aerials have a lot of range.

kk good stuff at goml, you were swaggin out pretty hard with that rest punish on hbox, that combo on mango on fd, and those ledge dash sh nairs (those were sooooooo clean!!)

I was wondering what your thoughts were on dthrow follow ups on puff with no/behind di at lowish percents? I've been playing around with full hop instant uair lately and it seems really solid leading into another uair or maybe fair. I can't tell if that's legit or if Im just playing bad puffs and if double jumping after a good puff would put me in a bad spot. Sometimes I just utilt or sh uair but those don't really seem to lead to much. Unfortunately its so freakin hard to grab puff so I didn't see this situation in your match with hbox this weekend but I was hoping for your input so I could be ready if the situation does arise.

Thanks ^_^

D-throw combos at low percent? I usually do something like this. You basically either FJ uair into falling bair, or you SH uair --> land --> SH or FJ bair to cover an option / dash dance (if you think she's gonna pound) and hit her with something huge. At higher percents you also have the option to hit FJ soft bair --> strong bair (DJ might be required) but I forget when because I basically always feel uair gives me the best position vs a character when I can combo into it.

 

[hectohertz]

@ KirbyKaze can you explain how to practice invincible ledgedash? i've been through the frame data with kadano, but I only seem to be able to get 2 frames of actionable invincibility. i'm not sure whether im dropping from the ledge too late, or whether my airdodge is suboptimal. any ideas on ways to practice / figure out where the problem is?

i wanna ledgedash SH nair like you <3

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik is on the ledge

0) Hold the edge (do not have anything inputted)
1) Down (once 8 frames have elapsed [or when Sheik's legs stop dangling / the collision bubble from grabbing the edge has just vanished)
2) IMMEDIATELY DJ and IMMEDIATELY roll the stick forward
3) slide the stick down to the desired angle for distance
4) L or R for air-dodge

 

[moogle]

Is there a flow chart anywhere for what exactly we should be doing at all times.

I made this like 5 years ago... lol
http://smashboards.com/threads/character-flowcharts-humorous.233361/page-2#post-7365965

 

[Xyzz]

Sheik is on the ledge

1) down
2) IMMEDIATELY DJ and IMMEDIATELY roll the stick forward
3) slide the stick down to the desired angle for distance

4) press a shield button to airdodge

 

[KirbyKaze]

http://smashboards.com/threads/character-flowcharts-humorous.233361/page-2#post-7365965

Lack of dash attack displeases me

It's not bad though actually

 

[tauKhan]

Sheik is on the ledge

1) down as soon as you can drop
2) IMMEDIATELY DJ and IMMEDIATELY roll the stick forward
3) slide the stick down to the desired angle for distance
4) L or R for air-dodge

fixed

 

[KirbyKaze]

I felt that was given but I'll add it so nobody gets confused.

 

[g_f]

on resetting with two jabs.

the second jab is thrown off in case they sdi upwards; but can't the second jab be sdi'd as well? also, i only saw sheiks upsmashing after a reset with two jabs, isn't grab a feasible follow up because of too few stun?

i've got nair'd for double jab resetting cpus as soon as my second jab connects lol. is this a thing? i mean, an actual player might be able to nair you for jabbing twice his lying on the floor? or is it a cpu only thing...

 

[BrTarolg]

Actually i never understood the two jab thing - if they SDI the first one they are already in the air how does doing the second jab help? Does it put them back in the forced getup? Does it give you frame advantage by stunning them in the air??

also, quesiton 2:

i usually play PAL, but i got NTSC just to screw around with friends. Is it just me or does the sheik on sheik chaingrab not work until higher %s? someone said 0-68% or smth and i can't believe that if they DI away lol

 

[tauKhan]

If a char is in the knockdown state on the ground, and is hit with an attack that does less than 7.00% (sheik's jab in this case), he'll go into specific state that'll last exactly 13 frames, and if he is in the air when that state ends, he'll go into fall and the hitstun cancels. I think hitting him again during that state resets the state. If he sdi's the first jab up and you jab again very fast, it's difficult for him to sdi again, so the second jab can cause forced get up.

Here is more information about resets:
http://smashboards.com/threads/we-should-update-the-compendium-of-knowledge-thread.268908/

 

[ScubaF_ingSteve]

So I'm trying to get the timing out to nair out of falco pressure. I know to practice you can try to nair grounded puff and if you hit her, you are nairing on frame 3(?), my question is, to escape the pressure, do you need to do frame 3(?) nair or can it come out later and hit? I want to know if me hitting puff about 10% will help during pressure situations or if I should just practice until I hit it 99.9% of the time.

 

[BrTarolg]

Hmm whilst magus post is interesting, it still doesn't explain the double jab thing

I'm not sure that you can go back into a forced getup or not, or what the point of the double jab is :-/

 

[Heero Yuy]

Sheik is on the ledge

0) Hold the edge (do not have anything inputted)
1) Down (once 8 frames have elapsed [or when Sheik's legs stop dangling / the collision bubble from grabbing the edge has just vanished)
2) IMMEDIATELY DJ and IMMEDIATELY roll the stick forward
3) slide the stick down to the desired angle for distance
4) L or R for air-dodge

How exactly does this look like? I feel like I do it all the time but this input seems confusing. An example from a match would be helpful.

(Edit: Oh, right I have been ledgedashing all this time. Never got the timing right for invincibility though.)

Also, please tell me that KK has a Sheik-Puff matchup post/guide somewhere. I don't want to resort to secondaries/Fox since I'm the kind of guy who only wants to solidify his main.

 

[Laudandus]

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbykazes-sheik-mu-guide-postponed-indefinitely.313447/

There's a Puff guide in there

 

[tauKhan]

Hmm whilst magus post is interesting, it still doesn't explain the double jab thing

I'm not sure that you can go back into a forced getup or not, or what the point of the double jab is :-/

As I explained, the second jab resets the downDamage animation if done quickly enough. So if the opponent lands within 13 frames, and the jab still does less than 13 frames hitstun, it will force get up. Also if timed tight after the downDamage of first jab at higher percents, you can use the second jab to combo, as it then does normal hitstun.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Puff vs Sheik

- If she's high in the air and facing you, u-tilt
- If she's high in the air and has her back to you, either run away, walk away, bair, or hop onto a side platform so you can needle her
- Walk away a lot when she's approaching high; she'll often leave her tummy open for f-tilt
- F-tilt her out of her SH aerials
- Fair defensively vs her SH aerials
- Ignore her crouch & just walk away; space fair / needles to attack it if you must
- Dash attack sparingly
- D-smash sparingly
- Needle a lot

 

[BTmoney]

just chiming in to say that boost grab in general is ridiculous, like borderline actually ridiculous

anyone use it a lot?

 

[R-Moeny]

I can play sheik pretty well but I can't figure out what to do on Pokemon Stadium. Any tips?

 

[Xyzz]

Downthrow > fair people.

 

[BTmoney]

I can play sheik pretty well but I can't figure out what to do on Pokemon Stadium. Any tips?

what do you mean? sheik shouldn't spend too much time on a top platform anyways so the stage hardly effects your neutral game or your setups

recovering on that stage is stupid though

 

[hectohertz]

I can play sheik pretty well but I can't figure out what to do on Pokemon Stadium. Any tips?

i have a pretty janky style, so i actually really like PS. its long, so theres plenty of room to tech-chase ( i also think its easier to tech-chase on that stage because its so visually delineated ). abuse being under platforms with u-tilt. during some of the transforms you can abuse dsmash/utilt/ aerial through the tree or other nonsense. plenty of room to run away work with as well. and a really low ceiling, which is great against floaties

 

[SonuvaBeach]

what do you mean? sheik shouldn't spend too much time on a top platform anyways so the stage hardly effects your neutral game or your setups

Not exactly accurate. Depending on the matchup sheik can spend a good amount of time on the top platform. IC's comes to mind.

With no transformations you play it as you usually would. When transformations occur you just have to be intelligent about where you position sheik. Move to where you can zone them out effectively and abuse sheik's stengths (b-air zoning and getting underneath them to u-air/utilt/fair/bair would be the go-to's)

Boost grab is really good. I likely don't use it enough but I am trying to stray away from any overextending and most of the time that can be what it is. It can be worth it due to the huge reward of hitting it, but still risky. I'm not referring to techchasing, you always boost grab tech rolls there.