Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Xyzz]

boost grabs are a "special" sort of grab, performed by starting a dash attack and then hitting Z within the first few frames (i want to say three, but am not completely sure). They look fairly similar to your dash attack, go a bit further though because you retain the momentum from the dash attack, which is quite significant on some characters (notably including Sheik).

Aerials autocancel when you land before or after after a set time, specific to each aerial (see here: http://www.angelfire.com/games5/superdoodleman/Sheik_frames_11.6.05.txt). Autocancels cause you to land with the basic 4 frames of landing lag, without even pressing a button. Notably Sheik's early fair can autocancels in a shorthop... that can potentially be useful :D

 

[R-Moeny]

Is there a visual cue in the boost grab I should be looking for?

 

[tauKhan]

You should see the speed burst sheik gets from dash attack.

 

[Xyzz]

if you're uncomfortable with that, pick Mario for the initial testing. The timing is the same for all characters, and Mario doesn't feel the need to shout when doing a normal grab, but definitely wants to be noisy when dash attacking. So try to do boost grabs and when he goes "YAAHAAA" and grabs instead of dash attacking, you did just did a boost grab; congratulations!

 

[hectohertz]

if you're uncomfortable with that, pick Mario for the initial testing. The timing is the same for all characters, and Mario doesn't feel the need to shout when doing a normal grab, but definitely wants to be noisy when dash attacking. So try to do boost grabs and when he goes "YAAHAAA" and grabs instead of dash attacking, you did just did a boost grab; congratulations!

this is how i learned it as well

 

[garrR]

is there a particular timing for jab resetting fox after a missed tech? when i'm tech chasing off a down throw and trying to cover the missed tech option, sometimes my jab just whiffs and sometimes it doesn't, and i haven't quite figured out why. are there only specific frames during the missed tech animation where his hurtbox is high enough to get hit by the jab?

 

[Alulim]

is there a particular timing for jab resetting fox after a missed tech? when i'm tech chasing off a down throw and trying to cover the missed tech option, sometimes my jab just whiffs and sometimes it doesn't, and i haven't quite figured out why. are there only specific frames during the missed tech animation where his hurtbox is high enough to get hit by the jab?

That's because the computer is invincible while it starts up its getup attack animation. You basically have to jab fast enough so that it happens BEFORE your opponent starts the animation. I heard one can buffer it to getup attack as fast as possible, though I'm unsure of the frames involved and whether or not you can jab before it happens.

 

[garrR]

That's because the computer is invincible while it starts up its getup attack animation. You basically have to jab fast enough so that it happens BEFORE your opponent starts the animation. I heard one can buffer it to getup attack as fast as possible, though I'm unsure of the frames involved and whether or not you can jab before it happens.

sorry, i should clarify that i'm definitely jabbing during the initial missed tech animation.

 

[tauKhan]

I'll help you, the missed tech animation takes 26 frames before it can be interrupted with anything. So there is plenty of time to do the jab before the opponent can become invincible. Some chars might be too low to be hit with jab in the very last few frames of the bounce animation after which they can do getup, but I'm not sure because I can't look at it frame by frame.

 

[Salevits]

I really need help with the Fox mu.. >_> Out of the sets I lost in Paris 90% were against Fox...

Here's a pretty new set: Salevits (Sheik) vs peki (Fox)

Ps. I 4-stock the first match but lose the set. o_o

 

[Salevits]

if you're uncomfortable with that, pick Mario for the initial testing. The timing is the same for all characters, and Mario doesn't feel the need to shout when doing a normal grab, but definitely wants to be noisy when dash attacking. So try to do boost grabs and when he goes "YAAHAAA" and grabs instead of dash attacking, you did just did a boost grab; congratulations!

This is true, yes, but I just want to add that practicing it with mario doesn't really help you at all, since the timing while boost grabbing changes the result dramatically. If you want the full length (which is the most useful imo) you need to be frame perfect. So if you want to learn it, my advice would be just to pick Sheik instead and try it out for a while, it's not hard, you will notice it by eye, and your fingers get used to it really fast.

 

[Heero Yuy]

I have a really bad habit of dash attacking. Since I do get punished a lot, I know it's a major mistake I'm making.

What to do in place of this? I often use it as a defensive option when the opponent gets in my range, but obviously that hasn't been working out.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Spaced f-tilt.

I'm serious.

Smooth Criminal

 

[dkuo]

@ garrR (assuming youre the same person im thinking about)

in our one match yesterday i noticed that whenever your jab whiffed it was because you were really close to me (usually because i was intentionally doing slight crossup into no tech)
maybe it has to do with that. but maybe thats just falco idk if it applies to fox

 

[cisyphus]

I've found that a lot of the times that I knee-jerk dash attack, they shield it before they punish it: so I've started replacing them with boost grabs, which leads to chain grabs and tech chases. Naturally, replacing one spam with another isn't sufficient and I'm not sure if it works at higher level play, but it's a better idea and just one input different.

 

[hectohertz]

@ KirbyKaze i've been playing around with a combo that some people have recommended in sheik vs marth. supposedly m2k does this:

grab marth at very low percent: dthrow -> utilt -> fair -> regrab.
does this actually work? I could see it being escapable after the utilt or after the fair.




also (unrelated): i've been working on my CG game for the ditto. I usually tech-chase when I get a grab at very low percent (still working on the crazy 0% regrab thing you can do), but I've noticed sometimes the person is able to DI in a way that they can jump out. what should I do to cover this?

 

[Sweet™]

What are/are there visual or audio cues for when you can shield grab safely?

 

[Heero Yuy]

I played with my really good friend and a Peach/Sheik main yesterday. I was comfy in Sheik dittos, but I was derping around against his Peach.

Since then my goal is to now become a Peach slayer. Is there any post in the forum that I can gain a few tips from?

 

[moogle]

I played with my really good friend and a Peach/Sheik main yesterday. I was comfy in Sheik dittos, but I was derping around against his Peach.

Since then my goal is to now become a Peach slayer. Is there any post in the forum that I can gain a few tips from?

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...ned-indefinitely.313447/page-12#post-15042054
(I have a habit of bookmarking KirbyKaze matchup posts.)

 

[The Lemon]

How should I be DI'ing when I'm being combo'ed by Falco? I've been DI'ing away, but he can just follow up his pillars and shines anyways and I'm getting like 40%+ every time I get hit. Or is it just part of the matchup that Falco combos Sheik pretty hard?


Also, what are Sheik's options when trying to get on stage from the ledge? I generally feel scared when in this situation, and feel like I'm getting more punished than I should be when trying to get on the stage, but it seems like when guys like m2k or KK are on the ledge, people don't wanna go near them but just let them back on the stage.

 

[Alulim]

How should I be DI'ing when I'm being combo'ed by Falco? I've been DI'ing away, but he can just follow up his pillars and shines anyways and I'm getting like 40%+ every time I get hit. Or is it just part of the matchup that Falco combos Sheik pretty hard?


Also, what are Sheik's options when trying to get on stage from the ledge? I generally feel scared when in this situation, and feel like I'm getting more punished than I should be when trying to get on the stage, but it seems like when guys like m2k or KK are on the ledge, people don't wanna go near them but just let them back on the stage.

You gotta mixup your SDIs versus Falco's shine. Sometimes DI away from him, sometimes DI behind him, sometimes up, etc.
If you play a good falco, you'll get combo'd hard no matter how you DI. It's about making it more difficult for him and forcing him to do less optimal punishes against you.

Just wavedash onto stage after you've refreshed your invincibility. Mix that up with roll, jump fading fair, some shino stalls, some double jumps, etc. Basically just copy what M2K does. You can stall as long as you want unless you're damn predictable with your shino stalls and get the ledge stolen before you're able to re-grab it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

One of Sheik's superpowers is that she's really scary when she's on the edge because of her ability to chill there with invulnerability, combo off a bunch of her recovery attacks, and do a variety of other potentially lethal (or high-damage) reversals to her opponent.

So yeah if you put the fear in them a lot of times people will back off or give you a second to chill.

 

[hectohertz]

kk when u have a sec plz answer my question thnx i love u bye

 

[The Lemon]

Does Sheik have an invincible waveland from the ledge? If so, how good is it (aka Frames from landing if perfect)?

 

[Xyzz]

Kadano's list (http://smashboards.com/threads/kada...data-application.337035/page-20#post-16761069) has 11 for the useful one (and 12 with something unreasonable (probably letting go from the ledge > immediate DJ > no fastfall > regrab) to get the perfect environment collision box) (:

 

[The Lemon]

Oh, that's perfect! Thanks!

 

[hectohertz]

Kadano's list (http://smashboards.com/threads/kadano’s-perfect-marth-class—advanced-frame-data-application.337035/page-20#post-16761069) has 11 for the useful one (and 12 with something unreasonable (probably letting go from the ledge > immediate DJ > no fastfall > regrab) to get the perfect environment collision box) (:

its worth noting that you can get a +8 ledgedash by using the "notch" angle. the +11 ledgedash requires a fairly specific angle (see kadano post for more details)

 

[hectohertz]

http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...ned-indefinitely.313447/page-12#post-15042054
(I have a habit of bookmarking KirbyKaze matchup posts.)

we should make a post detailing them until the matchup thread is done

 

[moogle]

we should make a post detailing them until the matchup thread is done

Done! I put them here: http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...ned-indefinitely.313447/page-13#post-16841708

 

[hectohertz]

Done! I put them here: http://smashboards.com/threads/kirb...ned-indefinitely.313447/page-13#post-16841708

holy **** this is amazing

 

[garrR]

@ garrR (assuming youre the same person im thinking about)

in our one match yesterday i noticed that whenever your jab whiffed it was because you were really close to me (usually because i was intentionally doing slight crossup into no tech)
maybe it has to do with that. but maybe thats just falco idk if it applies to fox

yeah, so, looking at the hitbox animation, that totally makes sense:

being too close is almost certain the reason why my jab whiffs against a grounded spacie.

 

[M@v]

I'm still having trouble vs good foxes, figured I'd ask here for some pointers. Granted, most of the foxes I have trouble against I feel are better players than me at this point in time, but I'm trying to improve to fix that. The main part I have trouble with is when I'm under extreme shield pressure, and properly handling the neutral game. I guess the best way to describe how I'm feeling about it right now is "I know I can destroy fox when I get a grab, or get him offstage, but I feel like I'm always on the defensive or under constant pressure in every other situation". This is especially true when they are on top of me and I have trouble dealing with fox's immense shield pressure and combos. A good fox can just feel so fast to me that I don't have enough time to think and react properly.

I know I try to shieldgrab too much still; its a bad habit left over from my brawl days. Besides general advice, what are some reliable options to deal with fox that close? Silent Swag gave me a couple pointers, such as trying to force fox to come at you while your on the platforms, and abuse the hell out of ff bairs through platforms against him.

 

[Palmerfan]

Once you get fox out of really low percentages, nair is a good option OOS if you can get it out quickly and safely. Also, dsmash is really good if you can read his approaches and hes above like 25ish percent

 

[BO/\K]

What advice would you guys give to a Fox main who wants to pick up Sheik? My biggest question mark right now is how to neutral with her. Nothing I do with Fox seems to translate to Sheik.

 

[Palmerfan]

What can I do as an option to counter spot dodge (especially spacie spot dodge) when tech chasing? It usually makes me whiff grab and I get punished hard for it

 

[BrTarolg]

React faster so they don't have time to spot dodge

 

[Xyzz]

^ best option :D

Alternatives:
- downsmashing (stays out for ages, so it'll get them after their invincibility runs out. Make sure to only use it when there is a point to hitting it though (usually that means setting up an edge guard))
- dash dancing or doing sth else to bait out the spot dodge. If you realize you are late and are pretty sure they like to spotdodge as soon as they're able to during your chases, you can wait for just that and react to it, which is a lot easier. Of course the trouble is that they might choose to do sth else entirely.

 

[Togs]

Hey can i ask, when should i be using the c-stick with shiek. Also does anyone have information on reverse needle canceling. Thanks beforehand.

 

[Sweet™]

Dthrow fair is a good one. SHFFL upair is another. Dsmash if you want it to come out as early as possible.

What kind of information on RNC do you want?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Speaking of tech chasing, I'm so bad at reacting sometimes. I haven't quite gotten the air tight timing down for boost grabbing tech away. I'll get there eventually though ^_^

@ BO/\K Fox and Sheik have some concepts that translate over. With Fox you typically tech chase fast fallers on platforms with bair. But you have to full jump to hit them with it. Sheik can actually SH bair/fair/uair on non-Dreamland stages and get the follow up while maintaining positional advantage (because you don't land on the platform or have to stay in the air too long).

Sheik is actually fairly hard to control movement-wise, so becoming very comfortable with wavedashing, dash dancing, and SHing is critical. In spacy matchups particularly, precision is key to avoiding their hits, so focus on movement and spacing primarily and the rest will fall into place. You don't necessarily want to rush down your opponent with Sheik; rather, you want to think about positioning and spacing and the safest ways to poke at your opponent. Hitting them out of their movement is the key.