Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[hectohertz]

talking with @ Kadano about some of these now, will report back:


edit: teeter cancel stuff is slower b/c it cancels all your momentum

 

[tauKhan]

So does run cancel dash forward dash back.

 

[Kadano]

Grabbing the ledge from far away with Sheik — which method is the fastest?

Proposed methods (in arbitrary order):
1. @ KirbyKaze : WD → DD → WD
1a. WD → dash → smash turn → WD
2. @ hectohertz : WD → tilt turn → WD
3. @BrTarolg: WD → walk → tilt turn
4. @ T tauKhan : WD → smash turn → WD
4b. WD → tilt turn → WD
4n. WD (315°) → smash turn → WD (315°)
5. @ T tauKhan : Ottotto → dash back → WD
5a. Ottotto → smash turn → WD
6. @BrTarolg: WD → dash → smash turn → ledge cancel (pivot edgehog)
7. @ hectohertz : Run → WD → smash turn → ledge cancel
8. Run-cancel → walk right for 1 frame → dash left for 1 frame → WD right

Execution notes: Starting point is under the left edge of BF’s right lower platform. Frames are counted after Run 0 to the right. Wavedashes are always max distance (343°; really hard to achieve without custom notches).
Fastfall is done asap, of course.

1. DD is done as quickly as possible (dash 4 frames to the right, smash turn (pivot), dash 1 frame to the left)
4b. is easier than 4, but slightly slower.
4n. is what you likely get without custom notches or very precise fingers.
1a. Is like 1, but without the 1 frame dash to the left.
5a. Is like 5, but without the 1 frame dash to the left.

Results — ledgegrab on frame:
1. 33
1a. 30
2. 30
3. 35
4. 27
4b. 30
4n. 33
5. 34
5a. 32
6. 29
7. 27
8. 34

Thus, WD → smash turn → WD is one of two fastest ways of these to grab the ledge from far away. Doing a smash turn is not too hard; the input is just like a pivot jump, you just “cancel” the jump into a wavedash.
Gfycat input-output animation: http://gfycat.com/NimblePleasantIndianpangolin

WD → smash turn → ledge cancel is just as fast, but I personally am sceptical whether it’s feasible to do it consistently.
Gfycat input-output animation: http://gfycat.com/ThriftyClearIndusriverdolphin

 

[Laudandus]

I can't find a recent guide for the Falcon matchup, and unless I ledge camp I don't feel like I have a solid plan in the matchup. I've been trying to stay grounded because I feel like Falcon crushes me if I go in the air (in particular I normally like delayed aerials and I feel like I can't do that). But on the ground, it just feels like he's faster than me and has the advantage in ground maneuvering. Needles on the ground are ok but feel really scary against hard-read knee. How do I handle this character

 

[SonuvaBeach]

@ Laudandus - I've often felt the same way. Have you read the Armada post on playing vs Falcon? It's the most up to date, but yes, it's still dated. You sound like a similar player to me as far as, I need a basic idea of what I want to do and how. I'm not the greatest at developing gameplans on the fly, and sadly it cost me the set at Super Sweet to Scar (one grab away from the 2-0 >_< )

He does have the advantage on the ground to a point. If you're trying to preemptively throw out moves to stuff his approaches, you can be baited and this will result in a bad time. The set I usually watch before I sit down to play a falcon is shroomed vs s2j from TNE. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m3kk6ArTOtg

Take note on how hard Shroomed abuses stage and situational advantages. Notice how every time s2j is corned, he KNOWS he's cornered. What options does Falcon really have to get out of the corner that you can't react to? None really. Pay attention to when you can get this positional advantage and abuse it extremely hard. You can get one grab and either tech chase for a lot of percent, or keep the positional advantage and wait for the opening. This is key. Overextending when you have advantage is one of my fatal flaws and in this MU will cost you sets.

Scar himself said after the set "you beat the **** out of me on the ground, so I moved to platforms almost exclusively." This is how it should be. Scar actually had the advantage on the ground, but when I made a single read on one of his approaches I netted a grab that made him rethink ever approaching out right at all. I tried to not pre-emptively throw out tilts and to get a read on when he wanted to go in.

Shield drops are extremely helpful in this MU since typically when you're above falcon it's done. Can't say how many times I'd be above the falcon and they'd U-air my sheild and typically I would WD, Jump, or roll, all of which result in getting u-air'd. Instead shield drop fair/bair and I get a hit that either gives me advantage or resets to neutral. It makes being above him not AS terrible, but keep in mind that once they're onto the shield drop they'll just dash dance and wait you out. Above is still a bad position for the most part.

Watch that set and note these things (the gameplan):
- When shroomed has positional advantage, how he abuses it. Cornering Falcon, getting Falcon to throw his shield up, and having Falcon directly above him. These are all bad positions for Falcon, you can put him in them often, and understanding how to abuse them is key
- Watch how close Shroomed stays to Falcon. You're right - Falcon does have a slight advantage in movement....when he has space! Shroomed doesn't give s2j room to breathe. Without his long dash dance to bait, the advantage flips to shrooms favor, and he abuses this
- Dreamland, with the right gameplan, isn't that bad. The higher platforms allow him to move, but they also allow you to react much easier to his approaches from them. You have the advantage in the air (mostly B-air, but also nair/fair), so that room allows you to see his stuff coming and beat it out. You can see it game 2.
- Try to get a read on what the falcon is scared of. If he's approaching you a lot, you haven't conditioned him not to yet. This means you can be ready to react with CC his N-air, F-tilt, u-tilt and run away immediate turnaround grab (my fav). Once you establish dominance there, he'll move to a more full screen game. Here you can shoot needles to make him approach and if he stays on platforms to avoid them, charge some needles and then abuse his platforming via using safe bairs or catching him with them needles.


TL:DR
Stay close, abuse position, get a read on what they want, profit. Also, KISS (keep it simple, stupid)

Hope that helps man. I actually watch that set before every big Falcon set I play to remind me of what my goals are in the MU

 

[SpeedyJ]

Hi, can anyone share some good tips/pointers as regards to the Falco match-up?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Short hop nair out of shield is good for getting out of pressure. Powershield lasers whenever you can. Wavedash out of shield is good for repositioning and forcing Falco to constantly adjust his approaching angle.

Short hopping over lasers is good if used at the right spacing and mixing it up with wavedash out of shield.

D-smash to get Falco off stage, then nair/needle his phantasm and go out and fair his up-b.

 

[Scroll]

@ SonuvaBeach ty so much! That was extremely well described and ever so enrouraging. I currently have a hard time vs a Falcon. Watching that match along with the read was pure gold

 

[fred_]

What should be the best secondary to complement PAL shiek? falcon perhaps? nice against IC,PUFF/PEACH? (I'd like t o think of them as hard MU's for PAL shiek).

 

[Palmerfan]

I suggest falcon, he plays a bit like Sheik and has better matchups vs puff/peach/ics

 

[cisyphus]

Falco's always the answer. Falco's a beast secondary, and he helps with tech stuff.

But yeah: I've toyed around with walljumps a lot with Sheik and find that you can waveland out of them (most easily on Yoshi's because slants) and any available mixup is great for Sheik getting back on stage. Every so often I get them off on Fountain on the fly, but any time I go to grind them out I miss it every time. I'm sure it's possible on Final because of a post in Falcon boards I saw not too long ago as well, but mentally Fountain seems like the next step. I can't find it right now, but I'm thinking it's similar to a Doraki jump with an airdodge tucked in? Anybody with knowledge/magic that can diagram this out or whatever?

 

[Alulim]

i'm not too familiar about pal, but Fox is generally your best bet if you want to cover bad matchups (puff/ICs). Sheik beats Peach. don't let armada fool you into thinking that Sheik doesn't beat peach.

 

[hectohertz]

i'm not too familiar about pal, but Fox is generally your best bet if you want to cover bad matchups (puff/ICs). Sheik beats Peach. don't let armada fool you into thinking that Sheik doesn't beat peach.

peachs wins in PAL. its 55-45 in ntsc, and 45-55 in PAL

not having dthrow -> aerial and also u-air nerf really hurt

 

[EddyBearr]

I can't beat Kirby.

 

[KirbyKaze]

SH fair & needle more

 

[EddyBearr]

SH fair & needle more

I'll definitely needle more. SH fair seems to get punished too much and I'd been using SHFFL bairs instead. With SH fair, they just crouch cancel and grab (or worse, roll into up-tilt into 30%).

Triple R's too good.

 

[krazyzyko]

Which is the best and 2nd best stage to counter Peach?

 

[hectohertz]

Which is the best and 2nd best stage to counter Peach?

im a big fan of stadium / fd

 

[Napkin]

im a big fan of stadium / fd

Do Yoshi's and BF work as well?

 

[hectohertz]

Do Yoshi's and BF work as well?

bf is pretty neutral. i play the matchup very campy, and yoshis is just too small for me. if you play it super aggro it would make more sense, but you still have to be pretty careful, peach has huge hitboxes. stadium/fd both have lower ceilings (dthrow->uair hype) and are wider, which are both things i like against peach

 

[Drephen]

HOw the **** do i beat armada. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHODXto1sww

 

[hectohertz]

HOw the **** do i beat armada. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NHODXto1sww

you don't.

haha idk maybe watch amsah vs armada from pound4? afaik, thats the only sheik who's ever beaten him when he was at (or close to) full power.


also i love that you logged onto smashboards and replied to every sheik thread. i got 12 notifications on smashboards and they are all from drephen <3

everytime i buffer 4 spotdodges then grab, or combo dsmash -> dsmash, i know youre out there somewhere, smiling

 

[DaLung]

Hi,
I wanted to ask, if someone could tell me, why m2k doesn't charge the needles fully after getting a kill?

Regards

 

[Osh]

Random question: when Sheik throws aerial needles when and why do certain needles bounce off the stage/platform/shield? And is there any way to use this to an advantage?

 

[Zeppeli]

A really broad question, but what should I do against Fox players that know how to overshoot nair to beat my DD/WD back and have super shield pressure? I'm having problems timing f-tilt to their nair - should I just go for downsmash at low % whenever they jump at me? Only thing that's honestly working for me is SH back fair on occasion. Oh and do people cc grab by holding down back then JC grabbing? Seems like I get an additional DI option there if I hold down back compared to down.

 

[Palmerfan]

For CC grabbing, im not sure if its optimal but i hold down and then R+A

Not sure about the fox question, someone more experienced will answer that

 

[EddyBearr]

A really broad question, but what should I do against Fox players that know how to overshoot nair to beat my DD/WD back and have super shield pressure? I'm having problems timing f-tilt to their nair - should I just go for downsmash at low % whenever they jump at me? Only thing that's honestly working for me is SH back fair on occasion. Oh and do people cc grab by holding down back then JC grabbing? Seems like I get an additional DI option there if I hold down back compared to down.

For the fox, I think of SH nair, rolling behind them, or shield into SH nair.

 

[BO/\K]

Shield pressure doesn't make him invincible. If his nair isn't delayed enough (like if it connects with shield before he starts descending in his SH) you can grab him before the shine. You can also buffer roll or try to nair oos if you're confident with that. It depends what you mean by shield pressure since what you do depends on what he's throwing at you. If you know he's going to autopilot and use one option every time it's easy to handle.

Also if they're overshooting without thinking you can just NOT DD/WD back and instead go for an ftilt in his face when he runs past you overshooting.

 

[Zeppeli]

Shield pressure doesn't make him invincible. If his nair isn't delayed enough (like if it connects with shield before he starts descending in his SH) you can grab him before the shine. You can also buffer roll or try to nair oos if you're confident with that. It depends what you mean by shield pressure since what you do depends on what he's throwing at you. If you know he's going to autopilot and use one option every time it's easy to handle.

Also if they're overshooting without thinking you can just NOT DD/WD back and instead go for an ftilt in his face when he runs past you overshooting.

Thanks. I'll try watching for the ascending/descending nair cue.That's sure to be helpful.
ah, guess I don't have any choice but to time forward tilt on reaction even though its pretty difficult and becomes eventually straining (reaction wise) to do ..

 

[hectohertz]

Thanks. I'll try watching for the ascending/descending nair cue.That's sure to be helpful.
ah, guess I don't have any choice but to time forward tilt on reaction even though its pretty difficult and becomes eventually straining (reaction wise) to do ..

uptilt is also a really good anti-air. sh back fair actually beats the nair approach, but timing it is REALLY difficult.
the more you practice tilting on reaction the better you'll get at it. forcing yourself to play on reaction and not on autopilot is a GOOD thing

 

[Zeppeli]

uptilt is also a really good anti-air. sh back fair actually beats the nair approach, but timing it is REALLY difficult.
the more you practice tilting on reaction the better you'll get at it. forcing yourself to play on reaction and not on autopilot is a GOOD thing

Uptilt I feel is more for when you predict an approach is coming. Doesn't give enough room to use on reaction unless its a full hop in my opinion ..

SH back fair is a lot easier and more effective than forward tilt based on my experiences, though I'd like to think forward tilt is safer since I can hold down back to cc right after. forward tilt seems to be a great option in the end but is really hard on reaction. I guess downsmash is also good, though at higher percents since you can get punished even after landing it at very early percents (as it doesn't force knockdown then).

 

[BO/\K]

SH back fair is still a good option so don't stop using it completely in favor of ftilts.

uptilt is harder to use on reaction but if you hit a space animal with it they usually go flying in a nicer trajectory than ftilt would send them.

 

[DaLung]

Hi again,
in case you havent read my question above:
Is there any advantage why m2k and other good sheik players dont fully charge the needles when your opponent revives?

Regards
Dalung

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Is there any advantage why m2k and other good sheik players dont fully charge the needles when your opponent revives?

It depends on the situation. You have to position yourself and move around to best avoid getting hit after your opponent comes down with invincibility. Needles are great, but if you charge them up and die or eat a 50-70% combo for charging them, they clearly were not worth it. So, it depends on the situation. If I kill off the top and I have plenty of time to charge, I will, but my stage position relative to my opponent will always be more important to me than a few needles. Charge when you can, but be aware of position.

 

[virtuososteve]

I am having a really hard time punishing a tech in place or getup shine against fox/falco. I am really good with following tech rolls but when they tech towards me or right next to me I get punished really hard. Also, how do you deal with a fox/falco where their pressure is literally TAS level. http://www.twitch.tv/azmeleecommunity/b/562625546 At first the is me warming up against a local falco player and then later on towards the end I play Axe's Fox and Falco. Its CRAZY!!! Any tips?

 

[BO/\K]

Expect a tech in place and then react to the rolls. Always make being ready to grab the tech in place your first thought.

 

[loci]

How many frames does sheik's wavedash take? She's a frame 4 jumper and I think sliding on the ground take 10 frames to complete, but I'm not sure. I also don't know if air dodging adds any additional frames in WDing. Can someone confirm?

Also, how many frames does it take for sheik to do a perfect SH FF?

 

[hectohertz]

How many frames does sheik's wavedash take? She's a frame 4 jumper and I think sliding on the ground take 10 frames to complete, but I'm not sure. I also don't know if air dodging adds any additional frames in WDing. Can someone confirm?

Also, how many frames does it take for sheik to do a perfect SH FF?

frame perfect wavedash is 13 frames total:
frames 1-3 jumpsquat
frames 4-13 airdodge lag (i forget the name of the action state)

to find out specifics like how fast her sh ff is: http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-hitboxes-and-frame-data.299984/

 

[Oddyesy]

Hey guys. Is there a guide for Sheik anywhere? I'm doing a writeup for her, so anything would be much appreciated.

 

[CrazyCupofJoe]

How does Sheik go about edgeguarding a Puff? I played on in tournament the other day and I tried to shffl bairs but they would always just go low to the ledge. If I tried to grab the ledge, they went high. Should I just force them to go high and punish them if possible?