Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Ocho(*8*)]

I read that the only thing that determines whether the reverse hitbox works or not is whether the character getting hit is behind or in front of the person doing the hitting. i.e. if character B is on the right of character A when character B gets hit then character B will go to the right.

i think this is in line with what you posted about the single/ fixed point strongbad.

 

[darkatma]

Thanks for the info Strong Bad. Also I don't believe that is the case Ocho, because there are plenty of times where I will hit with peach's back arm of nair and it will still hit forward instead of reversing. My theory is that the reversal is caused by hitting the back side of the hitbox bubble. So each bubble has a reverse position. If hitboxes overlap I think the forward one takes priority (just my theory).

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

This post by Magus is what I was thinking of.

"There aren't 'reverse' hitboxes. You get a reverse hit simply by having the center of their character be located behind the center of your character when it connects. "

http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-139#post-9249212

 

[ChivalRuse]

My biggest problem is that I suck at reacting to tech in place, so my opponents always can buffer roll away. I find that I can usually react to tech rolls fine.

 

[darkatma]

Thanks for the evidence. I wonder what the game considers center then. Center of gravity of the character? And does this mean some moves are not reversible at all? (Moves where the hitbox stays on one side of the body)

Edit:
Another topic, does sheik's bair extend under the stage in https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ok7TYdRuL6k&t=8m10s that situation? I'm thinking something similar to falcon's stomp, but less ridiculous.

 

[SacaSuMoto]

For which situations, do you know when which move is the better/most effective choice between up air and down air?

For combos, finishers, and so..
sometimes I see a player use one, when I would've chosen the other.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dair is better at high percent

Uair is better at low percent or when it will kill them

This isn't rocket science guys. Use the strong move at low damage and the weaker move at higher damage in combos.

 

[darkatma]

Techchasing with sheik feels like rocket science to me. Precision and timing bleh!

 

[nicaboy]

Swedish probably best USA sheik right now after m2k

Pretty good but I think there are some sheiks who can give him a run for that title ^.^

But that 4 stock on scar was insane. He looks so much cleaner than from the 1st time i saw him beat eggm. Nice job Swedish

Quick question curious to know the general way too treat pikachu. I kinda just run around and space aerials and fish for grabs. I dont think such a short and dry style will work on higher level pikas(i guess mainly axe and pikachad). If im not mistaken sheik doesnt really have that death chain grab on pika right? I give up on regrabs sometimes and go for combos becasue they know how to di out of it or at least make it very hard for me to attempt regrabs . I also find myself easily over whelmed by the speed pika accelerates at.

I dislike edge guarding him as his recovery is kinda hard to punish. I find myself giving up the ledge too in trade for stage control due to difficulites gimping him.
I really like walking up and uptilting(i like this in general alot). I also find my back air as a much more effective gtfo out of my space move than forward air.

Tope was saying I can treat the match up some what like falcon and with that in mind if helped me tons. However I dont think I know the match as well I know top tiers. Having said that thought Im pretty confident I can beat any pika becasue well Im sheik haha.

Didnt manage to get my matches vs chads pikachu recorded but It was alot closer than I wanted it to be vs a pikachu. I barely managed to win which has me a little worried shoud i ever run into him again or axe. General help or advice?

Ah anyone here plan on going to pound in september? I feel insanely ready for a national(although this may not be one). Financial aid also can help me travels now since im in school.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Treat Pikachu like Falcon in neutral.

 

[Salevits]

Help with Falco MU needed. Please review with a harsh hand:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqhTJJhbUOw
(I win this set but It's the only new video I have..)

Also.. How do I punish rolls efficiently with Sheik?
Because last weekend I lost to a Falco that rolled like 10 times in a Stock.. And I punished like 3 in the whole set, and those ones I hard guessed and Up-smashed before he even started the roll.. I lost the set miserably.

This might be a deeper rooted problem that my play style doesn't allow me to punish mistakes enough..? Or something I don't know! Is something like that noticeable in my set above? Or something else that could be the source of my inconsistency.. I win good players but can lose to a scrub as well...

E: Oh and there's one more thing.. I think I'm pretty bad at handling lasers.. At close distance I usually try to jump over them hoping it's a low one, or dash under hoping it's a high one.. But I have no idea of telling if it's a low or high one other than guessing.. So it's kinda 50-50 at it's best, because I still might miss the dash attack/fair.. Sometimes I powershield > WD > Grab but I don't do that too often.. At far distance sometimes I also go to platforms to bait falco going up.. But in overall I feel like I give Falco too much control because I kind of hate the lasers. Sometimes I find myself just eating the laser and f-tilting afterwards..

 

[Purpletuce]

React to the roll and either punish the ending lag or punish them with your good position (grab if they shield, Dsmash if you think they'll spotdodge, space ftilt if unsure etc).

If you can't do that, it is probably because you're over committing (like throwing out smashes) and it is allowing them to roll safely. They might also be rolling under a prediction that you'll commit to something.

Rolls in general are probably not your problem. For example, one thing I do often is when a Marth is below me, and I'm in my shield, I know they want to F-smash me. If I shield drop, fast fall, and start a roll, by the time they react to me shield dropping, and try to F-smash, my roll has started. If I'm successful, I get a free Dsmash.

Edit: Just watched some of your match. You didn't seem to be throwing out smashes or generally committing too often. Maybe you were tired or something? After a long period of smash I sometimes get lazy and start throwing out smashes, then lose momentum, start losing when I shouldn't, and it creates a cycle.

Your Shiek seemed pretty solid btw. (From what I saw)

 

[darkatma]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rLEfWpu7kXg&list=PLhLCpkhWRXN_zi7Y2BGXCrPmeyb2y9Gvf&index=9
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NeBVyi_6lKk&list=PLhLCpkhWRXN_zi7Y2BGXCrPmeyb2y9Gvf&index=7

Some of my matches from a tourney last weekend. I feel like something is seriously wrong with my neutral game. I have no idea where I got the wavedash->tilt and run->tilt habit, but it got me shieldgrabbed or baired out of shield a ton of times. Also letting them get up by 2-0 in a set is hard to come back from lolll.

Here's a set of me doing things less wrong.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9w2AavXC4PA&list=PLhLCpkhWRXN_zi7Y2BGXCrPmeyb2y9Gvf&index=8

 

[ShroudedOne]

I honestly didn't know about Sheik's shield dropping potential until just now. :o You have opened my eyes.

 

[Jolteon]

Shield dropping is awesome.

 

[Nintendude]

I've been attempting to use Sheik more seriously these days to counter pesky floaties. In particular, Peach, Luigi, and Samus. Here's some recent footage. Anyone got tips? I'm mainly looking for tactical advice and also areas where my punishment and edge games can use some refining.

vs. Vist
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eXXeiuZynWU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IvcRX5mtCJI

vs. Mew2King
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aI6bKcnyKL4

vs. DoH
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9VTgLhUjMXs

 

[WWGenesis]

Hey guys. I'm a long time smasher like many of you, though I haven't actually started playing competitive until recently!
After touching up on the majority of the cast, I've come to like Sheik the most.

I have four questions for now:
1) What skills/tactics/techs are most important for a Sheik player to know/be able to execute?
Would it be tech chasing, needle canceling / reverse needle canceling, SHFFL N-Air OOS, vanish - ledge stalling ... etc? Is there something you'd like to point out of the bunch?

2) Can Sheik throw diagonal needles without jumping (on ground only)? I recall seeing M2K being able to do this in some videos if I'm not mistaken. Is it isn't possible, is there some quick way (like how M2K does it) to edgehog with needles (especially diagonally thrown needles)?

3) How does one go about playing the whole spacing game with Sheik? I see M2K mixing up dance dashes with his wavedashes and poking with forward tilt, F-Air and N-Air quite often. I feel as though it's pretty hard to rank up the 40% or so percent needed to begin heavy comboing without the use of needles and grabs.

4) How's Final Destination for Sheik against the space animals?

Many thanks to you all!

 

[BSeeD]

1) To answer, I'll go with a sentence from Kirbykaze :

"I swear if most Sheiks just improved their technical skill (moving fluidly [and with a high degree of control], moving quickly [includes oos], control over their momentum, better spacing, grabbing the edge quicker, being able to reverse needle store for offensive edgeguards with bair, consistent short hops on command [includes on oos stuff]) then a lot of them would start beating people they're currently losing to just because then they'd be way faster, harder to hit, do more damage ON hit, better out of shield, and have better edgeguards."

This is my leitmotiv with Sheik, and should be every Sheik's leitmotiv IMO.

2) U can't throw needles diagonally while grounded.

3) Basically what you said + grabs. Grabs are very important with Sheik to rack low damages.

4) I would say it's very good (cf Overtriforce's Sheik), but I'll let good players tell you more about it.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I distinctly remember ****** Hax and S2J on FD so I think it's like 60-40 for Falcon









>_>

Sheik is fine on every level vs Falcon. I don't think the matchup advantage really changes by that much based on the levels because the character traits and their subsequent interactions that Sheik has working for her to gain the edge (ground control, attack superiority, more reliable conversions, fewer bad positions to be in overall, etc) don't really change across the levels. Seriously, I think Sheik bops Falcon by some good chunk across the board and then maybe some small, teensy adjustments here and there but overall I don't think things change much whether you're on DL64 or YS.

Get over FOD. It's not a **** counterpick.

 

[WWGenesis]

Thanks a lot, BSeeD & KirbyKaze.

I'll definitely work on the technicals since I'm not fluid enough. It feels as though I've only got the basics down when involving movements.
Just a few more things after you pointed out some stuff:

Is there someway to throw diagonal needles and or edgehog with regular needles better? I can't tell how M2K does it so consistently (guessing it'd probably be practice), though I notice that he uses needles frequently whenever he hits a F-Air.

Oh and how is fox trotting with Sheik? Is it worthwhile to use with dance dashing / wavedashing or should I just stick to the two?

Haha, FD is actually one of my better stages. I'm just wondering how it is towards space animals (think you might've misread that), not falcon since I don't see many uploads on youtube with M2K against space animals on FD. Thanks again : P

 

[BSeeD]

I have to emphasize the fact you need to be able to move wherever you want with Sheik.
She has simple but fast movments.

About needles, I guess it's just practicing.
You could be able to find some routines coming from M2K, but I'm not even sure he's got some.

Fox trotting is just another spacing tool. You decide if you need it or not. I've already seen some people using sticky walk with sheik to punish a whiffed grab XD
The point is : Sheik's fox trotting is not that useful due to Sheik's weird initial dash, but it's something you can add to your mix ups if you want to, once you're good enough with the rest.

If you want to watch Sheik players playing on FD against spacies, I'm pretty sure KK has some matches on youtube where he plays Unknown/SFAT/other good spacies on FD.

You should also watch Overtriforce's tech chasing and edgeguarding game on FD (it's PAL though, you can't chaingrab out of a down throw, just tech chase).

Ice is also the best EU player right now and mains Sheik.

 

[Spife]

I hate falco again :3
but no srsly **** that bird what do I dooooooo?

 

[KirbyKaze]

I suggest you learn something like how to dash PS grab his lasers (and PS lasers in generl). You've been struggling with this matchup for a long time and I feel a new approach is warranted. So rather than focusing on what Sheik can do in a traditional Sheik core gameplay type fashion I think you should radically alter your approach to improvement in it and learn something powerful that you can centralize the match around. So since you're Sheik I suggest dash PS since it makes the most sense (see: Ice).

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I am not sure how real it is to be able to PS every laser that comes your way. A small percentage is fine and can lead to openings. But out of all of your attempts you'll get stuck in shield quite often versus Falco due to your failures. Is this a problem? Are you aiming to PS with high success or aiming to PS with low success, but still nabbing a few to prove a point?

 

[Strong Badam]

whenever i think of falco in this game i think of quitting
so i did

 

[Xyzz]

Whenever I think of Falco I think of how much I like float :D

 

[stelzig]

Ban falco pls.

 

[-RedShadow]

2/3 set I did last night. Feel free to critique both

 

[soap]

I've subbed out alot of my foxtrotting for straight runs and dash cancels

crouch cancelling is so powerful that I think it is worth it. You also gain access to almost her entire moveset.

a simple quick dash dance out of the crouch is all you need to get turned back around again



but yes everything is useful, experiment and try and think how it would be useful to you in a match

 

[Purpletuce]

I used to have a ton of trouble with Falco, although I think I'm getting better at it. Still have trouble though. One thing I realized that helped is that he is an offensive powerhouse, and is particularly inept at crushing defenses, so you need a very well structured defense to get around it. If you take the defensive, and give him so control, he will usually get something out of it.

So I started to take openings more aggressively, and allowed myself to get punished more often. Considering how fragile he can be, sometimes it is worth it to go in, and make a very specific punish.

One thing I do often is PS -> follow up, where I assume what he will do after, and try to punish. For example, if I think he will try to laser, then go above me with a fulljump, I'll attempt a PS, and immediately jump OOS and interrupt him from the air.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik's height when she SHs is one of the major factors in defending effectively vs offensive Falco SHFFLs. The height allows her to go around the SHFFL nair and dair and position her own high-priority aerials in a manner that stuffs his by aiming for his head or out-ranging him entirely.

 

[Spife]

My response to lasers is universally sh nair. I think my problem is I try to butt heads with him a little to much which results in me just getting ruined.
Like I don't think it's lasers, they'er annoying but to paraphrase something you said last time, falco's dps > sheiks. Maybe I need to death combo harder?

Also I'm blushing because kk-san remembered that I've struggled with the falco match up since for ever

 

[soap]

you don't have to commit to the nair, which is easily crouch cancelled

the short hop alone is high enough to jump over low lasers, and her duck is low enough to dodge the high ones

I never liked relying on my powershields to determine if I get a grab or get my shield pressured

I'll go for it at times but I really don't like that position. Falco's will even fake the point blank laser and just grab you.

 

[Spife]

I play baddies doe, like I use to live with mattdotzeb for a while, whom I'm sure name searches, so sh nair worked every time.

What are my other options? Fair, tomahawk grab/tilt, but i feel like he'll have already landed and start lol'ing in my face cause i'll be in the air for twice as long

 

[soap]

Fair, fast fall nair, needles, fastfall needle charge into grounded needles,wave lands forward and backward, double jump into a fastball needle or fair or nair or wave land, empty land into crouch

Lots of options man read the situation. Don't be flashy for flashy sake but don't box yourself in to traditional options either.

 

[Ijuka]

All right, many Sheik players don't punish hard enough vs Falco.

What happens when at 50% midstage you get off something like, say... Dash attack -> dsmash, a pretty common thing for most Sheik players to do when they, for example, read a tech correctly? The falco recovers before your Dsmash is done, and is back on stage safely, with distance in between you, in neutral game(Sheik loses hard vs Falco in neutral). Not that good, right? Even though you did cause 23% of damage.

In my opinion it's never worth it to go for a finisher if it doesn't either give you the stock or a good edgeguarding situation. Otherwise I would go for potential damage every single time.

For example, something like dash attack -> jab -> dtilt(tech trap so they probably won't tech) -> shffl dair -> jab -> dtilt -> dash attack -> fair. Now it will already kill or give you a great edgeguard. After the SHFFL dair in PAL version you can even do something like jab -> dtilt(second tech trap) -> SHFFL weak uair -> dash attack -> fair. Another extension you can do if they're expecting fair is to reverse weak bair -> ftilt -> fair, requires DI against. They are fine with DI away but normal people don't do that vs Sheik when she's shorthopping. At specific %s in PAL you can also do reverse bair -> ftilt -> full jump double uair -> full jump uair -> double jump fair. Generally results in you getting punched by your opponent. You wait until the last possible moment to jab them when tech trapping so that they attempt to tech, of course. You should hear it. If they don't fall for the trap and you don't hear them tech, then you can try to tech chase with dash attack or boost grab or just combo normally if that's possible at that specific %.

Of course these might not work like this at exactly these %s as it's off the top of my head but basically always go for combo extensions that involve guesswork instead of a surefire finisher unless you can guarantee 1. good edgeguarding situation or 2. a straight kill. Platforms also give you far more extension options.


Most Sheiks also don't have their edgeguarding off back throw down properly, you can completely streamline the edgeguard(usually with a fastfall -> rising nair starter) that lets you respond to everything the Falco does and should eventually lead into a kill if the Sheik makes no mistakes. Basically though airdodge hits the end of your rising nair and you can dsmash or something like jab jab -> falling fair. Forward B you can back throw and firebird you can react to with anything, generally it's rising nair to catch ledgehog attempts and back throw for firebirds onto stage.

on platform stages it's much more difficult to edgeguard properly so I don't think it's as big of a priority. uthrow onto the platform into tech punishing might work out better for nearly guaranteed damage.

 

[Purpletuce]

TLDR: Shieks go for guaranteed things, I wish they would do these janky/super situational combos that you will probably never pull off.

 

[Ijuka]

TLDR: Shieks go for guaranteed things, I wish they would do these janky/super situational combos that you will probably never pull off.

Please keep having that attitude and wonder why it's a losing matchup :3


You indeed should do situational combos, there's around 100 situational combos in the 40-140% bracket I guess and more depending on DI. o.o SSBM has nothing but situational combos

None of it is difficult execution-wise so that is no issue so I don't see why you'd never pull it off but hey..

 

[Kaffei]

All right, many Sheik players don't punish hard enough vs Falco.

What happens when at 50% midstage you get off something like, say... Dash attack -> dsmash, a pretty common thing for most Sheik players to do when they, for example, read a tech correctly? The falco recovers before your Dsmash is done, and is back on stage safely, with distance in between you, in neutral game(Sheik loses hard vs Falco in neutral). Not that good, right? Even though you did cause 23% of damage.

In my opinion it's never worth it to go for a finisher if it doesn't either give you the stock or a good edgeguarding situation. Otherwise I would go for potential damage every single time.

For example, something like dash attack -> jab -> dtilt(tech trap so they probably won't tech) -> shffl dair -> jab -> dtilt -> dash attack -> fair. Now it will already kill or give you a great edgeguard. After the SHFFL dair in PAL version you can even do something like jab -> dtilt(second tech trap) -> SHFFL weak uair -> dash attack -> fair. Another extension you can do if they're expecting fair is to reverse weak bair -> ftilt -> fair, requires DI against. They are fine with DI away but normal people don't do that vs Sheik when she's shorthopping. At specific %s in PAL you can also do reverse bair -> ftilt -> full jump double uair -> full jump uair -> double jump fair. Generally results in you getting punched by your opponent. You wait until the last possible moment to jab them when tech trapping so that they attempt to tech, of course. You should hear it. If they don't fall for the trap and you don't hear them tech, then you can try to tech chase with dash attack or boost grab or just combo normally if that's possible at that specific %.

Of course these might not work like this at exactly these %s as it's off the top of my head but basically always go for combo extensions that involve guesswork instead of a surefire finisher unless you can guarantee 1. good edgeguarding situation or 2. a straight kill. Platforms also give you far more extension options.


Most Sheiks also don't have their edgeguarding off back throw down properly, you can completely streamline the edgeguard(usually with a fastfall -> rising nair starter) that lets you respond to everything the Falco does and should eventually lead into a kill if the Sheik makes no mistakes. Basically though airdodge hits the end of your rising nair and you can dsmash or something like jab jab -> falling fair. Forward B you can back throw and firebird you can react to with anything, generally it's rising nair to catch ledgehog attempts and back throw for firebirds onto stage.

on platform stages it's much more difficult to edgeguard properly so I don't think it's as big of a priority. uthrow onto the platform into tech punishing might work out better for nearly guaranteed damage.

Why not just dash attack > grab > dthrow > tech chase > 0 death follow ups. if they are in position to get jabbed after a dash attack you can probably just grab them which is probably far more rewarding assuming you've fine tuned your tech chase game

all this jab and dtilt is just asking to get crouch canceled shined or something.. idk. grab just seems way better to me

 

[KirbyKaze]

Grab to 30%, then d-smash / f-tilt / dash attack / set up an u-smash, then keep comboing them until they are forced into a horrible position and have to go offstage or eat stupid damage in juggles.