Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[Ijuka]

Why not just dash attack > grab > dthrow > tech chase > 0 death follow ups. if they are in position to get jabbed after a dash attack you can probably just grab them which is probably far more rewarding assuming you've fine tuned your tech chase game

all this jab and dtilt is just asking to get crouch canceled shined or something.. idk. grab just seems way better to me

Well, that's possible as well, it's just an example. It gives them time to think though, which can be detrimental. After the % where jab doesn't reset anymore, it becomes really difficult to react especially in PAL so I don't really like throws. I honestly don't see the point either - tilts and dash attacks lead into tech chase all the same, though it's better to just go with a full combo. In PAL dthrow at the ledge is golden though, as they will pretty much need to DI away which gets you into a wonderful edgeguarding situation. It all depends on the situation on the stage.

You are in a position to jab after just about every dash atttack so that's not an issue. People underuse jabs anyway. If one isn't enough to keep them in the air for long enough, two should be. Inserting a jab in between nearly every move in a combo can really screw the opponent's head up.



The main thing to get out of my post is that one should go for setups and frame advantage, not for guaranteed damage that resets into neutral. In Street Fighter or just about any fighting game you never see people perform max damage combos unless it will kill, they go for the combos with the best setups instead. The same thing is true for SSBM even though the systems are pretty different. Even so even many amazing Sheiks are rather lacking in this regard. Dsmash is the main offender, I don't think it should be a finisher unless you have a good read that makes you expect them to DI it wrong and if it will give you the edgeguard in the case they will. If it's a guaranteed kill it can be the finisher of course, but 8% + setup >>>> 13% + reset to neutral

 

[Xyzz]

Dunno, dsmash can be pretty good, it does usually cover a spotdodge if you are a bit slow on your techchase and they buffer one because they expect a grab and it does give you a lot of stage, so the situation isn't really neutral either.
Sure, I suppose we would all love to get a launcher of our dthrow techchase after 30ish percents, but if you aren't sure whether you'll land it, taking the easy, guaranteed thing that'll keep a small advantage to work with seems fairly appealing to me (sure, sometimes just going for something somewhat risky feels like a good choice as well... I just wouldn't knock off dsmash as something that can only be used to create edgeguards / direct kills, but rather keep all of its merits in mind when deciding what to go for).

 

[KirbyKaze]

D-smash is solid vs tech windows in that you can create non-techs if you know the opponent is preparing for something preepmptively (common), the last two hits generally combo together if the first misses, at very low percents you can on occasion get the first two hits (or even all three) to combo together if you hit the move deep enough into the foe (and there's some questionable DI involved), and so forth.

I definitely think it's questionable in a lot of places. But it does have some strong properties and influences opponent responses in convenient ways.

 

[Meljin]

Hi,
I'm just coming back from a regionals in which I was eliminated by a Fox. I'm very bad at this match-up overall, but I've been trying to think about it a lot during the match. Basically, the first round of this BO5 is like : fox approaches with a well-spaced Nair, can't trade back, grabs, shenanigans, death, 3 stocks.
I've been thinking about it, and tried to shield the Nair - Can't really do anything out of it because of the multishines forbidding me to Nair OOS. He will basically Nair-Double/tripleshine/Nair while DI-ing away so that I can't grab.

I tried to bait the Nair with dash-dances. It worked. So much. Except that when I dashdanced back to grab, he shined, cancelling the grab. I was consistent at baiting the Nair at the end of the set, but I wasn't able to punish him anyway. Any tips?

(Also on a side note, I read the discussion about D-smashes... I think I only do it once a match or maybe once a set, should I use it more? I feel like this move is now out of flavor/out of Sheik's meta.)

Thanks '^'

 

[HT F8]

Hi,
I'm just coming back from a regionals in which I was eliminated by a Fox. I'm very bad at this match-up overall, but I've been trying to think about it a lot during the match. Basically, the first round of this BO5 is like : fox approaches with a well-spaced Nair, can't trade back, grabs, shenanigans, death, 3 stocks.
I've been thinking about it, and tried to shield the Nair - Can't really do anything out of it because of the multishines forbidding me to Nair OOS. He will basically Nair-Double/tripleshine/Nair while DI-ing away so that I can't grab.

I tried to bait the Nair with dash-dances. It worked. So much. Except that when I dashdanced back to grab, he shined, cancelling the grab. I was consistent at baiting the Nair at the end of the set, but I wasn't able to punish him anyway. Any tips?

(Also on a side note, I read the discussion about D-smashes... I think I only do it once a match or maybe once a set, should I use it more? I feel like this move is now out of flavor/out of Sheik's meta.)

Thanks '^'

You just have to mixup your counter to his approach. You countered first with DD -> grab which is good, but since his Shine is getting in the way, you'll want to mix in stuff like DD -> Dash attack (knocks down around 70%, otherwise can be CC -> Shine'd), wavedash back + Ftilt, retreating Fair, etc.

Dsmash is still a very good move. Useful in crouch cancelling, otherwise mostly useful for getting the opponent off the stage at mid/high % or after a missed/non-tech following a Dthrow. Swedish Delight does it well.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Your grab can outrange his shine so long as you don't get 1-framed by the invulnerability.

 

[Elyssa Xey Hexen]

I'd say out range if you were beating a hitbox with a more disjointed hitbox. In that case, you just don't' want to get hit by shine period since invincibility and hitbox are out at the same time and no longer, then after its done you punish with whatever. Not really out ranging anything more just punishing ending lag. But, doesn't matter.... no idea why I brought it up.

Anyway, I am not really understanding needle play with Sheik and goals set-up around it. The only things I have gotten around to using it for are simply turning around in the air to grab the ledge, mess up recoveries offstage, and occasionally just throw them out there in the middle of a match trying to get someone to make a more towards me first.

The latter part doesn't seem as useful for much. Yes, I get like 2-3% on a single needle toss (not really going to have time to full charge), but I don't get any closer to taking a stock with them. If I can manage to get aerial needles on shield it seems like its a free grab. Otherwise, sh or fh needles seems like such a huge commitment and only works if the opponent just runs into them. SH needle is quite slow and seems to just easily get beaten by close DD movement. The other thing is needles on platforms. I am not sure why this is suppose to be good? Even if I hit a shield/person it seems like there isn't enough time to get off the platform, to the ground, and into a move get the other person before they are free to do something.

 

[omgwtfToph]

SH or FJ needles should not feel like a commitment because of needle cancel and lack of landing lag when thrown.

 

[Nintendude]

I always gets Nair'd when I try to up-air Peach at kill percents after she DI aways my down-throw. I'm so bad at this game

 

[JerkPhil]

Move earlier after the throw perhaps, Nintendude? It's easy to practice too

 

[soap]

Uair has more range than nair from below. You just gotta space better. At the worst you should trade and get the stock.

 

[Bose]

Hi guys! I'm thinking about switching main to Sheik from Fox, and want to jump aboard the discussion here. I played her for the first time in tournament recently, with ok results. Could you guys please critique a set for me?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=t98zIpg4D3c
(Is it ok for me to post this here? I saw the set from Nintendude, smooth ****!)

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Fellow Sheik mains, how do ya'll feel about dashdancing?

Smooth Criminal

 

[NewJerusalem]

Fellow Sheik mains, how do ya'll feel about dashdancing?

Smooth Criminal

I think it's an essential part of any good character's game.

I like to bait out rolls, space out attacks and pivot fairs out of them if an opponent tries to approach.

 

[BTmoney]

foxtrotting with sheik is pretty cool

 

[Bose]

I feel the pure dashdancing where you hold your stick all the way to the direction you are dashing, is not so good for Sheik, since she doesn't have that long of a dash animation. However, it's definitely useful when you foxtrot quickly to either side, which will result in a longer, and more flexible dashdance. I definitely not rely on dashdancing as much for my spacing with Sheik as with my Fox, or other characters, though. Wavedashing!

 

[clowsui]

David are you invis on AIM all the time? I never seem to catch you on and max doesn't want to talk sheik because he doesn't know how.

In any case I'm sure others can help me too. I'm learning Melee and playing sheik and would like some basic posts to read over links would be great. The only reason I'm asking and not searching is because search is still broken I think. Otherwise I would just do this myself

Btw reading the posts listed in the OP lol

 

[joejoe22802]

Lmk if you wanna talk on aim or skype.

 

[Ziodyne]

Lmk if you wanna talk on aim or skype.

we should talk
when i get better internet
and when i suck less at this game

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

I'm just starting to learn advanced techniques, should when i drop from the ledge for shino stall, should I use down or away?

 

[Ezzee]

2 questions: How worth it is it to learn how to SHHFL with Sheik and how do you implement wavedashing outside of edgeguarding?

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

Yes, it's worth it. And the more you play the more uses you find for wave dashing. Watch some videos of pretty much any one and you'll see an incredible amount of use for it. Maybe someone else can give some better advice

 

[Ezzee]

I'm making Marth my secondary because Sheik's hardest MU's are spacies, jiggs and IC's. I think the Fox and Jigglypuff MU are about even, so does making Marth a secondary for the other 2 makes sense?

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

I have always been told to learn one character first, and worry about secondaries after you get a really good handle on your main. I could be wrong though, just throwing my opinion in.

 

[CyberZixx]

I am with Sozen here. I say to stick with Shiek in those match ups. Spacies should not be that bad at all. Learn how to tech chase and gimp them. Vs Jiggs you down throw which is nice.

 

[Ezzee]

I am with Sozen here. I say to stick with Shiek in those match ups. Spacies should not be that bad at all. Learn how to tech chase and gimp them. Vs Jiggs you down throw which is nice.

I mainly want him for IC's because I imagine there will be an influx of them after Wobbles performance at EVO, and maybe if I'm having trouble against a Falco

 

[CyberZixx]

I mainly want him for IC's because I imagine there will be an influx of them after Wobbles performance at EVO, and maybe if I'm having trouble against a Falco

If you want to stop IC you are best off learning Peach.

 

[Ezzee]

If you want to stop IC you are best off learning Peach.

True, but I enjoy Marth, and sometimes I just might not feel safe staying with Sheik. Mostly against Falco's, but that would probably be after I've lost a match.

 

[Sozen the Phoenix]

It's not that only play one ever, it's just that you stick with one character for serious matches and the majority of friendlies. Trust me you should try and stick to one for a while because all my friends started at the same time as me, picked on character, and stuck with that character and are now far better than me. I on the other hand tried to main fox, falco, sheik, marth, falcon, and Ganon all spread out through the same time they've been focused on one. The games can get pretty rough. I got constantly four and three stocked for months until I started only playing sheik and marth. Even now I'm still behind the curve though, and it sucks haha

 

[Jolteon]

sheik is fine vs ice climbers

edit: actually, she's fine vs everyone tbh.

 

[Purpletuce]

I think that as you play, you become more conscious of your character, and their tools, and the systems they can implement, such as combo systems or spacing systems, etc. Often as these become more developed with one character, you will improve by learning and using your knowledge of that character to improve your play. You'll have a better understanding of why you do what, what habits you have, what habits you might notice on your opponent.

When you play characters you have yet to develop, it is like starting over on those character-specific aspects. Instead of focusing on which way they DI, and being prepared with a optimal follow up, you'll find yourself throwing moves at them and figuring out what works for that character. This will develop your new character, but not develop your overall skill.

Shiek has the tools to beat any character, so if you use her as a main, and you're losing, you should look at as an opportunity to improve. If you need to improve, you should work with your most developed character, to improve faster.

I think there are some specific exceptions to this, such as if you play a character that is more reliant on a certain aspect, you will develop that aspect more. So if I play Yoshi, and rarely find myself in a shield pressure situation, and often fail to properly apply shield pressure due to lack of experience, it will form a cycle. If I practice with Falco, and am often in a situation to use shield pressure, I'll get more comfortable with shield pressure, as a player. However, I'll still have to learn how to use it with Yoshi specifically, as a character.



This is why I've spent 2-4 weeks temporarily focusing on Falco, Puff, Peach and Marth, however I've always stuck with Yoshi in serious matches.

 

[JerkPhil]

Even though I main Samus I play with other characters to practice other parts of the game as Purpletuce mentioned. I use Fox to practice speed and technique, and Sheik for combo game and tech chases. Since I started to practice Fox, I got a lot more technical and commit not as many tech flaws as Samus.

 

[Spife]

Two questions:
There's a lot of times where i could dash in and grab cause they're shielding but I always dash attack, how do I work in dash attack/grab mix ups into my game?
I do a lot of fsmashes (missed ftilt inputs) how do I stop doing that?

Also i dont wd back tilt ever how fix?


Tldr spife worst sheik main

 

[JerkPhil]

Answer to first question: Play more.
Second: Hold to the side before pressing A. Try holding to the side while your character is already performing an animation.
Third: Play more friendlies and try out new techniques when results doesn't matter. You'll get a hang of when to use them that way.

 

[Spife]

I dont wanna practiiiiice
Ima just make fmash a viable move

 

[CyberZixx]

Why don't you want to practice? Without it you will never improve. Which, is fine if that is not your goal but you can't magically make fsmash good.

 

[Spife]

Yes I can, have and will

 

[SSB_Hello]

Naw. You can't. Forward smash is only a move that works 1/100 and usually that time is if your enemy misses a tech or input. You should practice getting out of the habit of missing such simple inputs, as recommended above you, by practice. Otherwise you really shouldn't complain about 'why can't I do this'? I know that because a year ago I would ask the same **** to my friend and I got told - not by him alone, everyone - that it came from practice.

Edit: I'll tell you why it's a bad move. It can be crouch canceled at very high percents, then DI'd or rolled out of the way or punished which is worse.

 

[Spife]

no you scrubs are using it wrong. No one is going to cc an fsmash if it follows an empty short hop.

 

[SSB_Hello]

no you scrubs are using it wrong. No one is going to cc an fsmash if it follows an empty short hop.

No one is going to use a F smash if there are better options. Which there are. Whenever I Fsmash it's purely the occasional missed input. I don't actively seek to combo into it.