Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[KirbyKaze]

Running past him is also really good. A lot of the time he's gonna try to FJ in such a way that you can't retreat on it (he's gonna aim for your head and a bit further back). In those cases, blocking --> nair OOS or just running through him is really good.

There is a difference between nair-shine and dair-shine pressure.

 

[Vionce]

if i throw a low percent falco off stage, is there anything i can do that will cover sweetspot sideb and on stage sideb? I've been spiked a few times when i try to wavedash ledge grab, and there's not enough time to jump out and turn around needle bair. Are needles the best option?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

WD edgehog will beat sideb and upb attempts. If they DJ dair you're in trouble. Alternatively, SH bair will wreck a DJ dair but probably won't get you very far against a sweetspot.

 

[omgwtfToph]

So for drillshine pressure, should I be trying to nair oos after the drill, or after the shine?

 

[gm jack]

Depends on their timing. They can make it so that there is no gap between the drill and the shine, or the shine and the drill, but not both in one jump. If they drill late, you can't do much/anything before the shine, but if they drill early, feel free to do whatever.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Actually Fox's dair is quite a bit different from Falco's, jack. There is always [approx.] an 8 frame gap for fox's dair on block when there is no shield stun before a shine comes out. If Fox fast falls properly, he can do a rising dair and land without having a hitbox gap until the landing animation.

I am not going to attempt to answer the posed question because I feel KK would answer it better, but theres some data you can look at. I believe KK made a detailed post on how the various fox shield pressure works, where the gaps are and such, and should be found in the fox boards.

 

[Ministry]

if i throw a low percent falco off stage, is there anything i can do that will cover sweetspot sideb and on stage sideb? I've been spiked a few times when i try to wavedash ledge grab, and there's not enough time to jump out and turn around needle bair. Are needles the best option?

just back throw and charge up smash. it beats everything and also instills fear.

 

[Kaffei]

Running past him is also really good. A lot of the time he's gonna try to FJ in such a way that you can't retreat on it (he's gonna aim for your head and a bit further back). In those cases, blocking --> nair OOS or just running through him is really good.

There is a difference between nair-shine and dair-shine pressure.

Could you explain the difference between the two pressures?
Also, referring to Sveet's post, is there actually a guide that you wrote explaining the gaps?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278616

thats the thread

 

[KirbyKaze]

Dair-shine basically just means the gaps will always be in the same places so it's predictable like that. I do after either, depends on how I feel in the situation.

On Nair variants, because you can't tell where the gaps are until they're actually doing it, I prefer stuff like WD. Or I wait to see what kind of pressure they're doing and then act from there. Sometimes I guess their next action. Seems pretty reasonable since a lot of people kind of have a 'formula' to how they like their shield pressuring.

 

[ShroudedOne]

What do you mean by the gaps, KK? The gaps in between the dair hits?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Yes.

10chars

 

[ShroudedOne]

But you can't do anything in between those dair hits, can you? I'm kind of confused why you mentioned it. I mean, couldn't you mix up your dair timings (like you do with nair) to make it less predictable? I'm just very confused.

 

[gm jack]

I stand corrected then. I think I assumed with was similar to Falco's pressure, but knowing it should never work is really good. Nice and easy to buffer a roll out of there or nair etc.

 

[Armada]

One thing that I think can be really good but I don't think I have seen anyone use it (maybe Im wrong cause I don't watch many matches) is WD after d-throw.

Many people maybe wonder why but if you WD after a downthrow against spacies (after 50-60 percent maybe) it feels like you have way more time to react on their roll or whatever they are doing and the punish is free as hell.

I know many people haven't seen my Sheik but I actually have kinda much experience to play with her and I think this idea is really good (NTSC Sheiks against spacies and PAL Sheik against Falcon).

I will try to find the old stream from a couple days before Apex when I played Sheik for one hour straight or something.

 

[ShroudedOne]

I think M2K does that often enough, wavedashing after a dthrow. I thought it was something standard, and recommended, but then again, I think I've only seen him do it.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

The WD can usually be substituted for walking forward, as long as you get in range of their landing in time.

 

[Nedved]

In French board we had a discussion about it. Usually i walk to follow the DI on the d-throw and react accordingly. WD is also an option, but I fail everytime I try, so i prefer walking then techchase.

 

[Kaffei]

One thing that I think can be really good but I don't think I have seen anyone use it (maybe Im wrong cause I don't watch many matches) is WD after d-throw.

Many people maybe wonder why but if you WD after a downthrow against spacies (after 50-60 percent maybe) it feels like you have way more time to react on their roll or whatever they are doing and the punish is free as hell.

I know many people haven't seen my Sheik but I actually have kinda much experience to play with her and I think this idea is really good (NTSC Sheiks against spacies and PAL Sheik against Falcon).

I will try to find the old stream from a couple days before Apex when I played Sheik for one hour straight or something.

Mew2King does that but is it really that good? o.o

@KK&Sveet: Much appreciated.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I just do it sometimes cuz I think it looks spiffy.

 

[joejoe22802]

Well although walking and wd might have the same result in terms of spacing, I think it is still important to not view it so objectively. Whoever you play against may react differently to each action. So if you're trying to read and not just cover options, I think the distinction between the two is bombskies.

 

[Vionce]

WD edgehog will beat sideb and upb attempts. If they DJ dair you're in trouble. Alternatively, SH bair will wreck a DJ dair but probably won't get you very far against a sweetspot.

i see. How about doing that running up b ledge grab thing (where you run and up b, your momentum takes you offstage and you up b again and grab the edge)? Would that work better than wave dashing since you have hitboxes out and a reduced chance of getting spiked from a sweetspotted side b?

 

[Luma]

i see. How about doing that running up b ledge grab thing (where you run and up b, your momentum takes you offstage and you up b again and grab the edge)? Would that work better than wave dashing since you have hitboxes out and a reduced chance of getting spiked from a sweetspotted side b?

i think this might be the 2nd worse option you can do, only getting killed/sd'ing beeing worse

 

[SonuvaBeach]

i see. How about doing that running up b ledge grab thing (where you run and up b, your momentum takes you offstage and you up b again and grab the edge)? Would that work better than wave dashing since you have hitboxes out and a reduced chance of getting spiked from a sweetspotted side b?

The hitbox is irrelevant when they sweetspot the edge, hold it, and you fall to your death.

Bair covers everything but sweetspot. and normally if you are close enough and fast enough you can sometimes predict the sweetspot. grab it, and have them fall to their death. If you don't get it, just try to cover all their options so they can't get back from the edge, the edge is still a bad position. Alternatively d-smash covers everything but perfect sweetspot illusions (unless you are on top of the edge so your head hits through) and when they go over your head. Same with f-tilt, but not as effective at lower percents in my experience.

There are quite a few options, watch m2k and KK to see how they utilize them. My go-toes are the m2k fair, jump bair, and grab the ledge depending upon how far out they go. It is all percent and person dependent.

 

[KirbyKaze]

But you can't do anything in between those dair hits, can you? I'm kind of confused why you mentioned it. I mean, couldn't you mix up your dair timings (like you do with nair) to make it less predictable? I'm just very confused.

I apologize, darling. I've been cruel to you for my personal amusement. I wanted to know how you would react to my comment (and to see if anyone else would believe me).

You are correct. You cannot action between the individual hits of Dair (outside of shield SDI) unless shenaniganry occurs (one or more of them miss because of height or whatever).




Anyway...

When I refer to the 'gaps' in space animal shield pressure, I am referring to the times where you are not shield-stun locked into helplessness. Usually their aerial-shine shield pressure works something like


Shine ---> stun ---> GAP ---> aerial ---> stun ---> GAP ---> Shine



However, this is not always the case as Fox (and Falco) can, on some aerial-shine chains, manipulate the gaps to create a really big one and a reall small one (or no small one, just a big one). Consult the shield pressure thread someone linked earlier (I think it's also in the OP of either this thread or my MU thread). In a general sense, the earlier your do your aerial after the shine, the bigger your 'gap' between aerial lag and the following shine will be. People delay their aerials to avoid this.

Fox's Dair breaks this rule because the constant stream of weak hitboxes basically ensures that the end 'gap' will be the same size every time. Normally the point of 'delaying' your pressure on normal, single-hit moves (nair, etc) is to create a smaller 'gap' between the aerial's lag and the shine. But since dair is weak and has constant hitboxes, it doesn't behave this way.

So no, you don't really have to worry about 'delayed' Dairs. The timing to beat a delayed Dair is the same to beat an early Dair and so forth and so on. Because of the nature of the move.

That clear? If not, you're outta luck 'cuz I ain't explaining that again :x

 

[ShroudedOne]

Okay, I got it. Thanks, KK. And don't worry, I forgive you.

 

[omgwtfToph]

i love reading big kk posts ^_^ even if they're 100% stuff I know

 

[KirbyKaze]

One thing that I think can be really good but I don't think I have seen anyone use it (maybe Im wrong cause I don't watch many matches) is WD after d-throw.

Many people maybe wonder why but if you WD after a downthrow against spacies (after 50-60 percent maybe) it feels like you have way more time to react on their roll or whatever they are doing and the punish is free as hell.

I know many people haven't seen my Sheik but I actually have kinda much experience to play with her and I think this idea is really good (NTSC Sheiks against spacies and PAL Sheik against Falcon).

I will try to find the old stream from a couple days before Apex when I played Sheik for one hour straight or something.

Yeah at super low percents I think walking (or turning around) is better but from like some percent onwards I think WD is better 'cuz it's better versus the rolls and you can get your fingers positioned during WD lag for up tilts or f-tilts.

 

[Nedved]

Today I played against a casual IC. He didn't know what wavedash means,etc...
It was a very close match (on FD), but even if he's not bad (good idea of spacing, priority and killer moves), it was very frustrating to have a match that hard against a beginner.

How can we deal with IC (PAL) ?
I mean...
AFA-->Crouch to D-Smash
Dash Attack -->Crouch to D-Smash
Grab-->Nana/Popo hit
Mistake-->Heavy F-Smash
No sweetspot on recovery-->F-Smash
Something-->Random D-Smash
Camping --> Camping back

So what sould i do ? I feel it was pretty hard because i had no idea on the MU, didn't know what to do... but even after match i still have no idea.

 

[Jolteon]

fair a lot

 

[Kaffei]

Today I played against a casual IC. He didn't know what wavedash means,etc...
It was a very close match (on FD), but even if he's not bad (good idea of spacing, priority and killer moves), it was very frustrating to have a match that hard against a beginner.

How can we deal with IC (PAL) ?
I mean...
AFA-->Crouch to D-Smash
Dash Attack -->Crouch to D-Smash
Grab-->Nana/Popo hit
Mistake-->Heavy F-Smash
No sweetspot on recovery-->F-Smash
Something-->Random D-Smash
Camping --> Camping back

So what sould i do ? I feel it was pretty hard because i had no idea on the MU, didn't know what to do... but even after match i still have no idea.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VMZGdj-ATJs#t=8m50s
8:50
XD

 

[omgwtfToph]

AFA-->Crouch to D-Smash

there's your problem.

 

[Kaffei]

Idk how good CCing is against ICs.. they always try to grab and their smash attacks hit like a *****

i just aerial and run away =((

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hitting fair shouldn't get you crouch-punished.

 

[Kaffei]

yay =D

sheik

 

[Nedved]

Hitting fair shouldn't get you crouch-punished.

Just fair with a perfect spacing again and again and again ?
Since I played a Link who discovers CCing last month and now crouch every tilt/AFA till 80%, I thought that I should try to space more my fair. Seems like the same thing here.
I will try tobe more patient and to space more, I think.

 

[Kaffei]

Just fair with a perfect spacing again and again and again ?
Since I played a Link who discovers CCing last month and now crouch every tilt/AFA till 80%, I thought that I should try to space more my fair. Seems like the same thing here.
I will try tobe more patient and to space more, I think.

KK told me that you can Fair auto cancel shield vs samuses who like to CC dsmash
Maybe you can try that vs link and see if it works too?

 

[KirbyKaze]

The difference between ICs and Samus at super low percents is that I think you can straight up out-range the ICs' crouch punish if you do the Fair max-ranged and lower than the AC height (maybe even with the AC but don't quote me on that 'cuz I'm not 100%) whereas you can't with Samus. I'm also fairly sure you can jump or dash away with the AC version before they can counterattack with anything but like... maybe jab... at super low percents. Perhaps f-tilt too? Whatever. Their down smash swing starts behind them so it actually isn't that great of a CC tool. It just hits like a truck if they land it.

At like 35%+ a reasonable thing to go for sometimes (in my extremely limited experience vs. ICs) is SHFFLed low Nair. If they try to crouch-punish, you can just react to it and dash attack their lag. If they don't crouch it, you can directly combo into dash attack and then decide how you're going to go about splitting them and/or comboing them. If they block, it's low Nair, so provided you l-canceled you should be safe.

I didn't really get to play Wobbles at APEX so I don't have a real strategy regarding this one beyond some stuff I've talked about with Fly and M2K (although M2K just says 'fair fair fair fair fair fair fair').

 

[omgwtfToph]

I like M2K matchup advice. It's always simplistic and generally does a good job of emphasizing the most broken strats to abuse in a given matchup.

 

[KirbyKaze]

M2K advice should be taken with a grain of salt. But yeah, it's generally a good way to check if you're on the right track.