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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
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The difference between ICs and Samus at super low percents is that I think you can straight up out-range the ICs' crouch punish if you do the Fair max-ranged and lower than the AC height (maybe even with the AC but don't quote me on that 'cuz I'm not 100%) whereas you can't with Samus. I'm also fairly sure you can jump or dash away with the AC version before they can counterattack with anything but like... maybe jab... at super low percents. Perhaps f-tilt too? Whatever. Their down smash swing starts behind them so it actually isn't that great of a CC tool. It just hits like a truck if they land it.

At like 35%+ a reasonable thing to go for sometimes (in my extremely limited experience vs. ICs) is SHFFLed low Nair. If they try to crouch-punish, you can just react to it and dash attack their lag. If they don't crouch it, you can directly combo into dash attack and then decide how you're going to go about splitting them and/or comboing them. If they block, it's low Nair, so provided you l-canceled you should be safe.

I didn't really get to play Wobbles at APEX so I don't have a real strategy regarding this one beyond some stuff I've talked about with Fly and M2K (although M2K just says 'fair fair fair fair fair fair fair').
Ahh, I see. I didn't know that.
Hmm. Does that mean the ICs can CC jab to grab?

Also, I have a question about Fox vs Sheik (not Sheik vs Fox). When Sheik dsmashes Fox's shield, what are Fox's best punish options assuming the dsmash is well spaced?

(Sorry about all the questions I'm just very eager to learn lol this game is great and way more fun than brawl)
 

bubbaking

Smash Hero
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Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)

bubbaking

Smash Hero
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Baldwin, NY, USA or Alexandria, VA, USA (Pick one)
Nair can be cced, but dair cant, right? so should I just SDI out of dair and grab?
also what kind of counter attacks are good? iirc dash attack is great after 25%ish but are there any other things?
I think dair can be CC'd if they start it really high up or really early when they SH. IIRC, only the first few hits of dair are extremely useful for Fox.

Is there a difference between nair-shine and dair-shine pressure?
I have a friend who mains Fox and we've talked about this very subject. He used to spam dair-shine a lot, but he's told that it's actually probably the less favorable of the two options, cuz nair-shine is safer for the Fox. Dair-shine can be CC'd or SDI'd if they do it incorrectly and nair-shine let's them cross you up.

Depends on their timing. They can make it so that there is no gap between the drill and the shine, or the shine and the drill, but not both in one jump. If they drill late, you can't do much/anything before the shine, but if they drill early, feel free to do whatever.
Technically, I think their drill lasts long enough that they can do it all in one jump. That friend I spoke of would practice that, but the prob (for Fox) is that, as you said, if they drill early, they're free.

The hitbox is irrelevant when they sweetspot the edge, hold it, and you fall to your death.

Bair covers everything but sweetspot. and normally if you are close enough and fast enough you can sometimes predict the sweetspot. grab it, and have them fall to their death. If you don't get it, just try to cover all their options so they can't get back from the edge, the edge is still a bad position. Alternatively d-smash covers everything but perfect sweetspot illusions (unless you are on top of the edge so your head hits through) and when they go over your head. Same with f-tilt, but not as effective at lower percents in my experience.

There are quite a few options, watch m2k and KK to see how they utilize them. My go-toes are the m2k fair, jump bair, and grab the ledge depending upon how far out they go. It is all percent and person dependent.
I like to run off>DJ nair. It usually beats all their options and the amount of time nair stays out is comparable to bair.

Since I played a Link who discovers CCing last month and now crouch every tilt/AFA till 80%, I thought that I should try to space more my fair. Seems like the same thing here.
I will try tobe more patient and to space more, I think.
Excuse my lack of knowledge, but what is "AFA"?

Also, I have a question about Fox vs Sheik (not Sheik vs Fox). When Sheik dsmashes Fox's shield, what are Fox's best punish options assuming the dsmash is well spaced?
I think Fox can WD oos>usmash or maybe even just usmash oos. The friend I play with usually doesn't let me get away w/ random dsmashes on his shield.

Edit: Did not mean to double post, guys... :-s
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
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Feb 8, 2008
Messages
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I think dair can be CC'd if they start it really high up or really early when they SH. IIRC, only the first few hits of dair are extremely useful for Fox.
Uh.. no. You cannot CC Fox's dair because CCing has a rule you can only CC the first hit. That's why you can't CC multhit moves because the other hits will cancel out your 1st CC

bubbaking said:
I have a friend who mains Fox and we've talked about this very subject. He used to spam dair-shine a lot, but he's told that it's actually probably the less favorable of the two options, cuz nair-shine is safer for the Fox. Dair-shine can be CC'd or SDI'd if they do it incorrectly and nair-shine let's them cross you up.
Idk how nair is safer.. Like I said you can't CC dair. you can always SDI if they do early aerial but it's better to not do the early aerial iirc because of SDI so
and according to this frame data: http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=278616 there's more gaps in between nair shines than dair shines

bubbaking said:
Excuse my lack of knowledge, but what is "AFA"?
Aerial foward A?

bubbaking said:
I think Fox can WD oos>usmash or maybe even just usmash oos. The friend I play with usually doesn't let me get away w/ random dsmashes on his shield.
Usmash oos works if the dsmash is poorly spaced but I want to know the best option Fox can do
What if he's facing backwards & what if it's low %?

btw a tomahawk is empty hop to grab so no that's not a tomahawk
 

Mew2King

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drillshine up smash OOS
or WD into sheik, then Shine->WD->up smash

also KK, my advice is the best, cuz it gives you the best idea to keep in mind without being like HERES TONS OF STUFF U ARENT GONNA REMEMBER DURING THE MATCH (I do this in brawl a lot but I NEVER REMEMBER HALF OF MY IDEAS CUZ I HAVE TOO MANY). Most MUs Idk what I'm doing though, so I just try to camp or do random whateverz stuff
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Ahh, I see. I didn't know that.
Hmm. Does that mean the ICs can CC jab to grab?
Jab --> grab is super escapable so it's not an issue. Just get ready to mash jump or roll or whatever for that first 0-20% or whatever when you're spacing your fairs. I'm not even sure it's a problem anyway.

Kaffei said:
Also, I have a question about Fox vs Sheik (not Sheik vs Fox). When Sheik dsmashes Fox's shield, what are Fox's best punish options assuming the dsmash is well spaced?

(Sorry about all the questions I'm just very eager to learn lol this game is great and way more fun than brawl)
There is no way to 'space' Sheik's down smash into Fox's shield. If you hit down smash on his shield, there is a good chance you will be punished. The timing is fairly strict on Fox's part (if you hit all three hits on him) but yeah it's easy enough for him to jump --> aerial (or land and shine), WD --> shine, or even directly attack OOS (up smash, grab) on her down smash.

Her down smash sucks against shields.
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
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Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
drillshine up smash OOS
or WD into sheik, then Shine->WD->up smash

also KK, my advice is the best, cuz it gives you the best idea to keep in mind without being like HERES TONS OF STUFF U ARENT GONNA REMEMBER DURING THE MATCH (I do this in brawl a lot but I NEVER REMEMBER HALF OF MY IDEAS CUZ I HAVE TOO MANY). Most MUs Idk what I'm doing though, so I just try to camp or do random whateverz stuff
thanks jason

Jab --> grab is super escapable so it's not an issue. Just get ready to mash jump or roll or whatever for that first 0-20% or whatever when you're spacing your fairs. I'm not even sure it's a problem anyway.



There is no way to 'space' Sheik's down smash into Fox's shield. If you hit down smash on his shield, there is a good chance you will be punished. The timing is fairly strict on Fox's part (if you hit all three hits on him) but yeah it's easy enough for him to jump --> aerial (or land and shine), WD --> shine, or even directly attack OOS (up smash, grab) on her down smash.

Her down smash sucks against shields.
@jab grab: oh ok phew that's really good to know lol
@fox: oh ok. I'll keep that in mind. I think you told me about dsmash before but I forgot. Should dsmash just be used to CC & end tech chases? or are there other uses?
 

bubbaking

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Uh.. no. You cannot CC Fox's dair because CCing has a rule you can only CC the first hit. That's why you can't CC multhit moves because the other hits will cancel out your 1st CC
????? But then.....how is Samus's fair CC'd? (O_o)

Aerial foward A?
If that's all it is, couldn't one just say "fair"?

btw a tomahawk is empty hop to grab so no that's not a tomahawk
I see. Sorry for the misconception. Well, I was referring to the empty jump since I'm assuming that SH>WL>utilt = short hop>waveland>up tilt. It was said to be 'scary pressure', but I'm wondering how an empty hop into a fairly weak tilt w/ a bit of startup time can be seen as "pressure".

@fox: oh ok. I'll keep that in mind. I think you told me about dsmash before but I forgot. Should dsmash just be used to CC & end tech chases? or are there other uses?
I think there's an RPS system regarding Sheik, and her dsmash usually beats a bunch of her aerials if they're comin' down on top of you. That's what I recall from another of KK's posts...
 

KirbyKaze

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Multi-hit moves break the CC if they stunlock you into the next hit of the multi-hit move. Samus's Fair doesn't do this because it's terrible (in that respect) but Fox's Dair does because it's good. Mystery solved. Also, hitting down has a screwy interaction with crouch but I don't remember fully how it works. Summon Strong Bad!

I use down smash a lot to just keep 'flow' going and to toss the opponent around. It's pretty effective. You can combo off non-techs with it really easily and force them to the edge, then begin the edge-boxing process where you shoot needles, space moves, wait, etc.

It hits away, has decent priority, and comes out quickly. It can therefore be used to edgeguard stuff.

I use it to hit through aerials a lot when I want them offstage or away from me or don't want to risk an awkward trade (relevant at super high percents).
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
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I don't think it's the multi-hit aspect of Fox's dair that makes it break CC, though; even if you hit with only one hit of Fox's dair or whatever, iirc it still breaks CC...

wahhh strong bad `_,
 

KirbyKaze

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I don't think it's the multi-hit aspect of Fox's dair that makes it break CC, though; even if you hit with only one hit of Fox's dair or whatever, iirc it still breaks CC...

wahhh strong bad `_,
You raise a good point, but on a crouching opponent the single hit dair still has massively reduced stun (try comboing single hit dair to up tilt, for instance).
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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they're different

but SH is about 8x better in a general sense



major points the stream covered

1) I friend-zoned the entire asian race

2) Coming out made easier by Peaches

3) what kind of guys I'm into

4) the gay lexicon (defining "twink", "bear", "daddy", etc)

5) My weird pre-relationship problems

6) Shots fired

7) stuff about Jigglypuff

8) Idea

Probably missed a bunch tho
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
KirbyKaze do you know any really specific things against Peach? You wrote a long excerpt on how to fight her & I saved it but for example I'm having trouble against when she throws a turnip and floats towards you.
What's the best option to counter this? Should I retreat to a platform & aerial needle her then come off the platform with a fair? or is it viable to run under her to gain stage control?
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
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Messages
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What you said are fine options

Sometimes I rambo into her with nair (spacing dependent) and hit through the turnip

I sometimes just give up stage space if I don't wanna get hit

You can catch-drop it at some spacings, and keep it at others

Amsah vs Armada is pretty good material for learning how to counter turnip stuff
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
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I think the only Amsah vs. Armada set I watched was the Pound 4 one. Any good sets of them playing in Europe off the top of your (or anyone's) head?
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
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Messages
7,048
Thanks KK, I'll check those out. =D

@omfwtfToph: I'll just give you everything that I've saved. There's a lot of good stuff.
------------------------
Sheik vs Falco
------------------------
Anyway, if you're getting stuck in shield on nair oos then it's a timing issue. I'm not sure what you mean by "grabbed". If you mean you produce shield grabs accidentally, again, timing issue. If he's shine-grabbing, then you're gonna have to add rolls and sidesteps to your oos repertoire. Or time the nair better (since it technically can work vs shine grab because Sheik is too good).

I would recommend doing a lot of WD oos > dash attack on him if he's pressuring hard with aerial-shines. Dash attack knocks over Falco surprisingly early if he doesn't get a true CC on it and while ground techs are a valid concern, dash attack's knockdown and potential punishment is usually worth the risk; it's difficult to focus on ground teching while doing quick SHFFLs and shine cancels. WD oos > f-tilt or d-tilt at their landing spot is also good.

I would also recommend holding your shield if you're finding your WD oos and nair oos getting stuffed. If Falco is doing early aerials after the shine, unless he's moving back to space or crossing up, you can shield grab those. You also can WD oos or nair oos after an early aerial very easily before he can shine, which is also worth noting. If you can tell what kind of pressure he's going to use, planning an effective counter is a lot easier.

If he's not forcing you to face him with lasers, bair is also really effective. It trumps most of his aerials (except his own bair because of how jump heights wind up working out) and you can d-tilt or whatever in that case.

When I have Falco in close quarters, and he's trying to fight me, I'm basically just trying to protect myself from his counterattacks while poking him. I have a few options I use a lot. Usually, I like to initiate with Fair in this position because I think it's one of her strongest options but Bair, movement based stuff (dash dance --> dash attack, grab, etc), and even grounded moves (space them) are good.

The one nice thing about Falco is that he can't really run away from you without the laser. So you can actually take your time a bit more once you've got him off balance (provided you deal with panic attacks properly) because he's actually in a really vulnerable spot here. Keep that in mind. You don't need to rush things.

~~~~~
Anyway, I generally have three go-to options when I initiate with Fair at lower percents. You can do other stuff (a lot of other stuff) but these three are my staples.

1) SHFF AC Fair --> SH
2) SHFF AC Fair --> grab
3) SHFF AC Fair --> some kind of wait (dash dance, WD back, block, etc)

The first one is good because jumping again will leave you ready to initiate another round of pressure. Continuing pressure via a set of needles (y'know how I keep saying having a few needles handy is absolutely amazing? Yeah, this is another shameless plug of that) is a good way to get a free grab if you observe that he's crouching, waiting for more. If not? You can swing at him. This kind of links up to the third option because after SH you can wait in the air and check for a roll or sidestep (needles --> grab works on sidestep too if you have enough or shoot late) and punish those. After enough SH aerials you can go for empty hop grabs (which you did, and seeing that pleased me).

Second one is mainly something you do if you notice they like to CC --> block, CC and wait, etc. Or if they just don't anything. It's very good. Always good to check for, because this gives you the most payoff at low percents if you hit a successful tech chase with the throw (which you can). Not much explaining required.

The third is similar to the first. Dashing away, waiting (at medium percents, when they're pushed outside CC range), etc. enables you to scout defensive options. Because you're sticking to the ground, you keep grab, dash attack, tilts, and down smash open as viable options.

In terms of ground-based stuff, traditional Sheik games work on him pretty effectively. I think dash attack and grab should be prioritized, but f-tilt and d-tilt are also really good. F-tilt for stuffing his jumps. D-tilt for sneaking under non-dair hitboxes. Against dairs I think just grabbing or dash attacking the landing lag is probably best, rather than challenging it. That said, you can challenge it if you want; I recommend bair & fair. Just be wary of dash attack and nair (and to a lesser extent up tilt) if you start doing that, because his counter is to sneak under your aerials and that can ruin your position.

You can do other stuff, obviously. SH nair is often very good, as I'm sure you noticed. But these are some of the ones I like and tend to use because of their safety and payoff. Depending on the habits of the opponent, you can gamble a bit more with whether something is susceptible to crouch or not. In general, as long as you're spacing well and action quickly after your aerials, you won't be crouch-punished or shield-punished very often by Falco.




Editor's Note: In this position, presenting your shield SPARINGLY is not always bad because you can get them doing a lot of panic attacks that will be performed with speed & priority abuse in mind, rather than safety vs a shield. I'm sure we've all seen the arbitrary Falco F-smash come out, the random high dair approach that makes no sense, and the zany dash attack from left field. Shielding these can get you a huge payoff either via nair OOS or other creative options you find suitable (I'm currently trying to get into the habit of up smashing OOS on dash attacks, but with little success thus far).


------------------------
Sheik vs C.Falcon
------------------------

If he approaches with a SHFFL or SH aerial, I like f-tilt, fair, and d-tilt for defense. Especially d-tilt. If he approaches from higher, I like bair, up tilt, and f-tilt as a defense. But fair also works.

I really like crouching in this matchup because it's difficult for Falcon to do tight movements efficiently because of how much ground he covers with everything he does. So by compacting your body when you're not moving, it makes you that much better defended from his typical "spacing aerials" like nair and whatever. He has to aim lower or predict you moving out of crouch, which makes his air vs your ground game a lot more simplified, which Sheik likes.

If Falcon doesn't DI away from your throw, you can combo most of your relevant ground moveset on him (basically any tilt, jab, and down smash). Knowing this can make for some good combos. Also, Falcon can ASDI out of your jab resets at 32% so don't do those after 32%. He can SDI out of them below that and it's not too difficult, but if you hit one you can fairly easily hit him with the double up smash hit, which leads to massive damage and often good combos (to perform, dash inside his body as he's standing and JC up smash; both hits connect; it's easiest when he DIs away but you should be up tilting on non-DI away most of the time anyway).

I'd talk about ranges but my opinion of significant ranges for Sheik is sort of under construction for this MU at this point so I'm not really sure what to say about it. So maybe Teczero or someone can field that one for me.


------------------------
Sheik Ditto
------------------------

•Background information:

Sheik vs. Sheik is becoming increasingly common in tournament setting and it's not too difficult to see why-- with such strong representation from players like M2K and Amsah, Sheik has, in recent years, developed a bit more of a following. Aside from more people being open to playing her, others are also once again recognizing her value as a secondary character.

If you are new to maining Sheik and want to play her in every MU, currently main Sheik and want to improve your Sheik ditto game because you feel you lack direction, or are in the process of picking up a Sheik secondary to use for the Sheik ditto and need some help to get you started then the following section of this guide is for you!

•Mechanical Information:

Sheik can chain grab herself to 80% or so (barring platform interference) and finish herself off in a variety of ways. Tipped up smash works on anything but horizontal DI away and KOs starting around 75% (percentage is prior to the hit; hitting the tipped up smash at its minimum KO percentage can be very tricky and I generally don't recommend it). Beyond tricky things like that, you can simply kill by setting up an edgeguard at the end of the CG and following it appropriately (usually by fair, or tilt > fair).

If you are playing without chain grabs, you treat the combo tree pretty much the same as you would against Marth (only you don't regrab the DI away at low percents). D-throw > dash attack begins to be effective around 30% on DI away. If they DI elsewhere, generally up tilt is the best move (f-tilt is also acceptable at times, though).

Regardless of whether you're playing with or without CG, it is strongly recommended that you learn how to d-throw > dash SH rising fair at 50% or so. This allows you to finish CGs at the edge and transition into edgeguards effectively, rather than relying on them having bad DI on an f-tilt or whatever. It's very good (it is also very good against Ganon, Link, Pikachu, and several other characters).

To edgeguard, you generally want to force her to recover onstage and then punish her. Wavelanding from the edge onto the stage (henceforth to be referred to as "ledgedashing" for the remainder of the guide) into grab is one of the best things you can do because you can turn around and face off the stage, which traps them (run by nair if they DI behind, fair the DI away, either way they go offstage). You can also stand > grab, stand > d-smash, ledgehop dair, and a variety of other things.

If possible, needle to stop Sheik's momentum when she's offstage. Her air mobility is poor, and this will improve your chance of forcing her to Up+B, or prevent her from being able to reach the stage with Up+B, etc.

If she's close to the edge, remember that she doesn't get invincibility on her Up+B until frame 18. This gives you a good window to hit her out of its startup. Covering options with offstage nairs, bairs, fairs, etc. are a good way to rob her of her jump and sometimes even get gimps on her. It's very good.

•Combat Stratagem:

Combat in a Sheik ditto boils down into a pretty simple spacing game. One of the major players in this system is SH fair, simply because her SH fair is absolutely beastly. The other major tools are her grab, crouch cancel, shield, and tilts (in no particular order).

In general, Sheik's fair will beat most of her options if spaced properly under general conditions and is a fairly generic means of attacking (or defending, even). SH FF AC fair is therefore one of the widely popular and prolific techniques used in this MU.

Countering SH fairs is trickier than it looks. F-tilt works, but it's prone to trades (or even straight losing) because of how ridiculous SH fair actually is (consult the hitbox thread in the resources section for more detail!). Generally, for your f-tilt to beat her fair, you need to tilt proactively rather than reactively. Nair and bair can also be used to beat fair, but they generally have to be used proactively rather than reactively; given how long these moves hang out, this can be dangerous (although they make a great mixup!).

To reactively beat SH fairs, your options are generally going to revolve around getting under her hitbox and sneaking your hits in (rather than directly challenging it). For this reason, d-tilt, d-smash, and even dash attack are common answers to it. The first two are easily set up by simple crouch-WD movements, and even dash cancels if you're ballsy. The last can be implemented by a combination of trots, dash dancing, and using WD > dash variations to get momentum.

Countering opposing low hitboxes from the air is doable in a variety ways. One technique that Unknown showed me a while ago that I initially discredited was simply dairing over their move. However, further exploration of it (and playing with M2K) has lead to some revision and it's not that bad of an idea. Although dair can be true-CCed for a while, it begins to knock over fake-CCers at fairly reasonable percents (40%?). Jumping over dash attacks, d-tilts, and similar with dair can lead to some very silly punishment opportunities. Similarly, air needles can often be a pretty good answer and link to grab for heavy punishment. Doing an aerial like bair, nair, or fair later to compensate for the crouch is also a good option, although it can be countered by the opponent doing an attack that hits higher, earlier (this RPS system shift is largely unavoidable, though, and one of the reasons why crouching is powerful in this game; this also obviously counters the dair strategy as dair hits late naturally, because of its delay).

Ground vs. ground in a Sheik ditto generally boils down to whoever is more proficient at punishing lag and whoever's better at being evasive. If the opponent is playing mostly grounded but you have better movement and defensive habits, playing ground is probably a reasonable idea. In this case, you want to be aware that the ground game will be very crouch-heavy, in addition to being very movement-heavy. F-tilt will often miss if you do it close to a crouching Sheik, and her tilts in general are CCable for a while. Grab, down smash, dash attack (space it so you finish far behind them), etc. become very good tools in ground vs. ground Sheik dittos. Hurling a boost grab into their crouch, dash dance, etc. space can be a pretty good way to get a KO (but I'd generally be cautious about using it because if it gets predicted you can be grabbed back; it's not a bad idea if you can tell how they like to move, though).

As a side note: M2K claims that down smash is very strong in non-CG Sheik dittos. Drephen likely agrees with this, if his style is any indication. I personally find the move hit or miss and somewhat situational, but it does have some great moments and it's one of the few moves that can straight beat her aerials reactively because of the invincibility. It's also a fairly good edgeguard, combo finisher, etc.

Another little tidbit: You don't want to be on platforms for very long in this MU. Although the prospect of optimal needle angles seems good, in practice you give the opposing Sheik too much time to get a good position. Either by getting under, or by getting a good angle to attack you from. Using platforms to reposition is great, and they do offer a good angle to attack from at times, but don't get comfortable on them. Staying on platforms is a good way to get wrecked by bairs, up airs, and various other shenanigans. It's a hard position to hold effectively.


•The Anti-Shield Game

Sheik's shield is massive and her oos game is great so she gets her own section on how to engage a blocking doppelganger. If the opponent shields in a Sheik ditto, you have a variety of ways to attack it, but they all have counters, with varying degrees of severity. This does not mean that you shouldn't attack shields period, but be careful. Look for habits and condition (if possible and/or necessary).

The most common way to engage a shielding Sheik is to space your fair outside their shield grab range. You can do mixups with jabs and whatever but be careful because CC shield grab and CC grab mashing will **** that pretty hard and you'll get hurt. I think you can space the jab far enough for it to be immune to that garbage, but I'm not 100% on it so don't quote me on it. Fair > dash away is pretty good for this reason, because it allows you to punish counterattacks out of shield pretty easily but the drawback is that if the opponent retreats (with WD oos, etc.) it's very difficult to capitalize.

The reason for jabbing, tilting, or even down smashing after you hit a shield is to catch jumps, shield-grabs, and other shenanigans. Doing so, however, will encourage them to hold block and wait for the follow (whether they'll learn or not is another matter, though). If you can condition them to hold shield, fair > grab becomes pretty good.

Empty jump > grab is also a fairly reasonable technique because most Sheik shield pressure revolves around hitting an aerial and then following with an action (or waiting). This preys on the complacency many have, and the belief that "Sheik will hit my shield with an aerial."

Low nairs are also good because, after doing it, neither character is at frame advantage (assuming full power nair) which allows you to do a variety of things afterwards, including: dash behind the opponent (requires you nair sort of deep into their shield), dash away (requires you not nair deep into their shield), attack (grab becomes a reasonable option because, assuming they shield grab, whichever grab is timed better will win if you break even in terms of frame advantage and it's easier to learn offensive timings), and waiting.

Generally, you can counter most delayed aerials as Sheik with simple things like nair oos but you have to be careful against fairs because nairs have less priority. You can also generally look for spots to WD back, which is also an effective way out of shield pressure. In general, your goal should be to avoid doing something that will get you grabbed or hit into a massive combo when you're shielding. Counterattacking is a secondary concern.


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Sheik vs Peach
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Peach Sheik in NTSC...

Make her get into the air and slap or bair her appropriately. Needles are good for making her go airborne. After you slap or bair her, your follow (assuming you get a follow) depends mostly on positioning and stuff. I find bair > bair is pretty common at low percents, and fair > f-tilt > fair is pretty common too. Fair > dash attack > ??? becomes pretty good at mid percents.

You can f-tilt through her aerials too, if you want to. You have to do it proactively rather than reactively, though, so be careful with it. You can also dash attack under her aerials (not dair) if you time it and position it correctly. Takes some getting used to, though.

If Peach decides to not approach when floating, remember that her float only lasts so long. You can honestly just sit back and charge ground needles and throw them at her when she's coming down if she's trying to be hyper conservative. Just be prepared to cancel the charge and swing at her (or retreat) if she starts coming at you. Her only option at that point is to attack (which is fine), try to throw you off with garbage like air-dodge that doesn't do anything about needles, or retreat to a platform. Peach being on a platform is a good position for you as long as you're not stupid (just don't jump into down smash).

When blocking, you can't counterattack after FC aerials. You can counterattack after dash attack, jabs, and down smashes. And anything that's spaced badly (f-smash, badly spaced d-tilt, etc).

If she decides to play a ground game, it's not too different, only you're supposed to play a bit more defensively because attacking recklessly into Peach's ground game gives her more chances to get under you. Use a bit more bair. WD back, shield, dash dance, etc. Just flaunt how your movement is much better than her's and you'll be fine.

Protip: When you're spacing bairs, if she comes in for a dash attack, instead of bairing just triangle jump away from her and then punish appropriately. I like to turn around and grab, but if f-tilt tickles your fancy and it's at a percent where it'll work, then go for it.

She's gonna crouch a lot so you have to be good at aiming your aerials relatively low to the ground (while still retaining the AC in the case of fair).

Lightshielding near the edge to force yourself to grab the edge is massively underrated and very good because she can't actually do that much about your poofstall without being kind of obvious about it. I mean, if you just poofstall over and over again she can eventually steal the edge, but you can see her getting that position and switch it up (baby ledgedash is amazing). If you can catch a turnip, you can make it really hard for her to cover all your recovery options onto the stage even if you forgo the use of the ledgedash so keep that in mind.

If they're really campy, if possible, push them to the edge (get them trapped under a platform, etc). From there you can just pressure them and zone them until you hit them offstage and then do some systematic aerial & tilt algorithm and you'll cover just about everything. You shouldn't concern yourself too much if she grabs the edge because you can cover most of her getup options really easily because she doesn't have a proper ledgehop (no ledgedash, really slow ledgehop aerial, loses almost all invincibility if she tries something funny, etc). Needles are amazing in this position.


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Sheik vs Luigi
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Against Luigi:

Use a lot of needles (aerial & ground, depends on how far he is), fair & bair, and d-throw > f-tilt > block at low percent (after like 30% switch to fair or uair [if he doesn't DI away just fair > ??? or uair always]). Run off platform fair. Shield > punish (sometimes WD oos is required) is good against his entire moveset except grab & super spaced f-tilt & some down smashes he'll get enough momentum to be safe from you on (although WD oos needles actually can work on the latter & is ****ing annoying).

Use needles to stop misfires preemptively during his recovery and to prevent him from getting distance from tornado & green missile. Fair > bair if you can hit it on him. Take away all his options & hog him (or hit him away).

You should DI all his throws behind him. CC to block, d-smash, or grab if he does jab stuff.


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Sheik vs Doc
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Doc:

SH fair. SH bair. Run off platform fair. Use a lot of fair & bair. Space them. Air needles are pretty good too. Grabbing him is really good, too, and your ground movement is better. F-tilt is dangerous against shields if they're good but most of them suck (they can up smash oos but only Shroomed does it). Crouch cancel > block, d-smash, or grab if he jabs (Docs like to jab > d-smash so CC > block > WD oos punish works a lot). His game is mostly centered around crouch-punishes, grab attempts, and getting under you with up tilt, uair, or up smash so if you play to avoid those you'll be fine. Your f-tilt ***** his aerial approaches.

If he camps pills, just charge needles and then prepare to engage him. It's easy to run under them, WD under them, crouch them, nair through them, bair to protect yourself from them, etc.

The combo tree is similar to that of Marth. On DI away, d-throw > dash attack isn't 100% guaranteed (jumpable, possibly even vulnerable to Up+B) but it works enough that I recommend it anyway up to about 45%. After that, f-tilt or fair (or get creative with nair or something).



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Sheik vs Mario
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Treat it exactly the same as Doc only expect Marios to be more aggressive about holding the middle & stuff. If you go berserk with aerials you might get f-smashed so play a bit more grounded. You can also be f-smashed if you go for nooby shield grabs and whatever on spaced moves, so don't do that. They're gonna try to bait you into being f-smashed a lot. So block, stay spaced, etc. It's not a great plan on their part or anything, but it's easy to get complacent when you have a big character advantage. If you deny them their random smash attacks & grabs, there's not much Mario can do about you.



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Sheik vs Fox
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tbh it's really easy to nair OOS on dair-shine pressure. So if Fox is doing a lot of dairs I sometimes just block more and nair OOS rather than try to do SDI stuff. You can also just do aerials aimed at his head because he doesn't protect himself as well as he does with nair because of lower range.

24-25% is the magic number for f-tilt. Beats anything but true CC at that point onwards.

A good start to the defensive spacing strategies vs Fox is to stay just outside his SH nair range and space SH fairs preemptively. This protects you from a far approach. From there, you pay attention to how he goes about moving into a closer range or maneuvering around you and then counter accordingly. As soon as you figure out how he's trying to close the distance, you can just counter with an appropriate Sheik thing. Running under him when he's doing FJ approaches or awkward high approaches is really underutilized because he will try to manipulate the circumstances to prevent f-tilt and other crap like that from being a good option (either by initiative or other shenaniganry).
 

KirbyKaze

Smash Legend
Joined
Nov 18, 2007
Messages
17,679
Location
Spiral Mountain
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dFB7PAuGtks#t=5m20s

This last stock is basically how you play to not get hit in the Sheik Peach MU (as Sheik). On some of Armada's 'hold shield' shenaniganry, obviously you're supposed to grab that (especially in NTSC) but Amsah played this really, really well. His positioning was great, his spacing was great, and he minimized risk with great effectiveness.
 

Wake

Smash Master
Joined
Sep 27, 2010
Messages
3,191
Location
Thank you Based Mimi.
they're different

but SH is about 8x better in a general sense



major points the stream covered

1) I friend-zoned the entire asian race

2) Coming out made easier by Peaches

3) what kind of guys I'm into

4) the gay lexicon (defining "twink", "bear", "daddy", etc)

5) My weird pre-relationship problems

6) Shots fired

7) stuff about Jigglypuff

8) Idea

Probably missed a bunch tho
It was super fun.
 

silentSWAG

Smash Lord
Joined
Dec 6, 2010
Messages
1,031
Location
South Park
so... i was playing doc and tried to dash grab and accidently hit a at the same time..
my grab can out, but so did the sound effect for doc'd dash attack. so it said wa - hoo as i did a dash grab.
i tried hitting A as the same time as i hit z for sheiks dash grab, and sheik did a really fast dash grab with longer distance. i looks like sheik is about to dash attack and then suddenly grabs...

is that a boost grab or what?
idk what boost grabs are
 

Kaffei

Smash Hero
Joined
Feb 8, 2008
Messages
7,048
Yup yup
You just dash attack then press grab like right after lol
It seems only really good with Sheik though
 
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