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Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

SPAWN

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spaw#333
Wow, that has a lot of great footage. Good find Charlesz.
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

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so i need a bit more 'variety' to my play style. can anyone name a good technique or two to kind of test a players response to things other than say running forward wavedashing back and going from there
 

soap

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so i need a bit more 'variety' to my play style. can anyone name a good technique or two to kind of test a players response to things other than say running forward wavedashing back and going from there
there are like way too many different ways to test peoples responses to things

try shooting needles, fake shooting and storing.

dash dancing has alot of variation in of itself

and u could try just throwing out well spaced attacks as well
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

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there are like way too many different ways to test peoples responses to things

try shooting needles, fake shooting and storing.

dash dancing has alot of variation in of itself

and u could try just throwing out well spaced attacks as well
thanks for the tips. one question tho, i thought sheiks dash dance was garbage? the only time i ever do it is sometimes when peach is trying to land after recovering
 

SPAWN

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It's pretty good so long as you foxtrot it. Watch how Tope uses it vs Jman. There should be some vids on youtube.
 

Charlesz

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Yo how should sheik approach if at all? And also how do you do transform to zelda and back really quickly
 

SPAWN

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Vs Falco

As promised, frame data on Pillaring:

Green = Their Shield is in stun

Red = Their Shield is not in stun

Early Pillar (dair asap out of shine):

1 Shine, Hitlag
2 Hitlag
3 Hitlag
4 Hitlag
5 Hitlag
6
7
8 Start Jump
9
10

11
12
13 Airborne (start Dair)
14
15
16

17 Dair Hits, Hitlag
18 Hitlag
19 Hitlag
20 Hitlag
21 Hitlag
22 Hitlag
23 Hitlag
24
25
26
27
28
29
30

31
32 Fast Fall
33
34
35
36 Land, LC lag
37 LC lag
38 LC lag
39 LC lag
40 LC lag
41 LC lag
42 LC lag
43 LC lag
44 LC lag

45 Shine again
You can nair out of that can't you? His Dair takes 5 frames to get out while your nair takes 3 frames to get out. He has a 2 frame advantage while your shield is stunned, but your nair has a 2 frame advantage since it comes out quicker.

Basically what I'm asking is what happens if Sheik nairs frame perfect OOS in this situation when Falco dairs frame perfect?
 

SPAWN

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How long does nair take to come out from oos/not oos?

With jumping you are airborne on frame 4 (nair comes out on frame 3)... so does it take 6 frames or 7 frames?

How many more frames are added if doing it out of shield (if at all)?
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

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so soap says needle tricks
spawn/ tope like dash dancing with foxtrots
kirbykaze, teczero, nicaboy, and kira any other suggestions?
i have another question too. is it good or bad to use a tag as sheik? i like vanishing downwards instead of say on a platform while recovering sometimes, but iirc the tag kind of gives away were you are going.
 

pockyD

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How long does nair take to come out from oos/not oos?

With jumping you are airborne on frame 4 (nair comes out on frame 3)... so does it take 6 frames or 7 frames?

How many more frames are added if doing it out of shield (if at all)?

if you're airborne on frame 4 and the nair comes out on frame 3 (i'm not verifying these, i'm going to assume you're correct), nair would hit on frame 6

and assuming you're already in your shield, 0 frames are added (if you're going to put your shield up, that adds at least a frame)
 

KirbyKaze

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so soap says needle tricks
spawn/ tope like dash dancing with foxtrots
kirbykaze, teczero, nicaboy, and kira any other suggestions?
i have another question too. is it good or bad to use a tag as sheik? i like vanishing downwards instead of say on a platform while recovering sometimes, but iirc the tag kind of gives away were you are going.
Fox trot is very good with Sheik.

In terms of faking and baiting, using a variety of moves to zone is sometimes good (instead of the generic standy of Fair and/or F-tilt). You can charge needles on the ground and see if the opponent likes to jump over them or run into shield with them and then form some good punishes/responses for those. Wavelanding around platforms is pretty effective. So is just walking towards them. Standing still at a good range can be good too - if your reflexes will allow it against jumpy opponents.

I don't feel the tag matters all that much. I find I get hit with or without it but I guess if you want to be super duper optimal you can refrain from using one.
 

SPAWN

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Wow, **** if that's true pocky. I don't understand how you get 6 though... 4 (when you're airborne) + 3 (how many frames it takes to get nair out) = 7

Those numbers are correct btw. Taken off superdoodleman's frame data. http://www.angelfire.com/games5/sdmcoolvid/Sheik_frames_10.29.04.txt

Falco's nair comes out in 4 frames so even if he did pillar on shield shine>immediate nair, so long as you're frame perfect you will beat it. If Falco does standard pillar on shield shine>immediate dair then you actually have a 1 frame advantage.

****.
 

SPAWN

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I'll be trying this with:
y (for jumping) then nairing
c-stick (for jumping) then nairing

I'll report back with results next Sunday after playing MattDotZeb for like 2 days straight... then I'll try it vs Th0rn also to see if I can do it vs him since he'll have some kind of variation of shield pressure than Matt.

Get pumped Sheik thread. Also I'll have videos of all this that I'll post on the boards... the videos will take a little while though.

Edit: Crap double post.... oh well I need an infraction for this thread anyways. It's so much easier to check on threads via infractions.
 

KirbyKaze

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My beef with Nair OoS on early Dair is that Falco can opt to do early Nair/Bair at any point and win (5 frame window) and it requires Sheik to be incredibly perfect.

I usually just wait.
 

SPAWN

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:( So annoying. I forgot about the whole when falco starts his jump, your shield is still in hitstun. T_T

On the other hand, what Falco pillars that frame perfect? That's pretty hard to do. It's much easier to hit cstick up then a with Sheik. Well anyways, I'll still try it and report back.

Worse comes to worse, it's a good thing buffer roll takes 4 frames.
 

SPAWN

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Well guys, I pm'd Magus how to learn the upb edgecancel thing, it's not going to be fun. I'll get around to it in about a month if noone else does. If anyone can provide a video of them doing it in AR that'd be great too. :)

How to do it with AR:

If you hold R and press down on the d-pad a few times you'll see an orange diamond shape appear ontop of the characters as well as the stage switching to bare walls and such. Using R+up on d-pad to switch to just hitbubble mode will make it easier to see, c-stick rotates camera, d-pad right+c-stick moves the camera, and d-pad left+c-stick zooms in/out.

That orange diamond is basically the space that your character actually occupies and is used to determine collisions with things like walls and such. It stretches around and reshapes depending on the animation you're doing. There's also a darker one that shows the previous frame's position, and a white outline that shows your raw location of the current frame before any environment collision adjustments/fixes (if there are no adjustments it overlaps the orange one since they'd be the same).

You'd want to get close to the edge using a repeatable set of actions from a fixed starting point that you can then systematically tweak (like walk off edge for A frames using B strength/direction air control, jump for C frames with D air control, up-b with E direction on/during startup hop, angle on vanish with F, etc). Pay attention to the bottom point of the orange diamond since that's what decides when you're touching the floor or not.

The height you're at could be just as important (I think there's a good chance it's a key part of it), and you'd need to be at the right height during the reappearance to trigger a landing through the collision box reshaping on a certain frame(s), while also being right along an edge.
__________________
 

pockyD

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Wow, **** if that's true pocky. I don't understand how you get 6 though... 4 (when you're airborne) + 3 (how many frames it takes to get nair out) = 7
you're airborne on the 4th frame, so you can start the nair on that frame

the nair hitbox appears on frame 3 after starting it so

frame...
1 jump 1
2 jump 2
3 jump 3
4 jump 4 - airborne, so nair 1
5 nair 2
6 nair 3 - hitbox

the simple explanation about the math is that frame 4 is an overlap for both things
 

SPAWN

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Alright pocky, that makes perfect sense now thanks.

Also, I'm stupid lol.
 

SonuvaBeach

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I realized this weekend that my sheik has a long longgg way to go.
How do you guys practice nair OoS without falco's to practice it on?

I can do it OoS fine, but when I'm being pressured against real opponents I think the hitstun throws off my timing and I just sit in my shield crying and end up rolling or stabbed by a shine.

I know all the options, just curious if maybe a level 9 comp will shield pressure me in a similar manner at all.
 

KirbyKaze

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In training mode, f-throw Peach off and then Nair OoS on the parasol.

It's nothing like the real timing but it's not too awful for getting the feel of it.
 

Devil Ray

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i'm starting to hate sheik again:mad: it's been a while since i had this feeling

i did horrible at smym. i choked hard in dubs and singles. darkrain double 3-stocked me while having a conversation. and matt r destroyed me with his falco. wtf. sheik isn't broken enough
 

h!tboxexplo!ter

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so ive been trying the foxtrot dash dance, and here are the variations i like out of it
1) boost grab
2) dash attack
3) offensive dsmash
4) offensive rising nair
5) retreating wavedash (working on this one its still hard to do)
edit: 6) nothing

thoughts?
 

soap

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i'm starting to hate sheik again:mad: it's been a while since i had this feeling

i did horrible at smym. i choked hard in dubs and singles. darkrain double 3-stocked me while having a conversation. and matt r destroyed me with his falco. wtf. sheik isn't broken enough
i had fun friendlies:)
 

Devil Ray

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fasho, friendlies are always mad fun...i just wish i did better in tournament. :( i just gotta get better.

btw, the tri-state guys were no joke....i was more than impressed by their skills
 

SPAWN

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spaw#333
So does anyone want to do the AR thing with Sheik's upb cancel? ...or do people nott mind waiting til late May when I work on it/have a video/get it done...
 

soap

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So does anyone want to do the AR thing with Sheik's upb cancel? ...or do people nott mind waiting til late May when I work on it/have a video/get it done...
i've gotten kind of used to getting hit when i land thank u very much.

but i do get wind assisted edgecanceled upbs on dreamland all the time
 

SPAWN

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i've gotten kind of used to getting hit when i land thank u very much.

but i do get wind assisted edgecanceled upbs on dreamland all the time
Imagine not getting hit when you land from an upb. Ohhh when that day comes it shall be glorious.

Also, wind assisted edge canceled upb's on dreamland are too good.
 

SonuvaBeach

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GROAT is a great name haha. and edge cancleing the up b is rough. If that become standard then....****.

and I'm with you devilray. choking/not doing well in tournament is demoralizing.

I think I'll be recording tonight and put up some videos so I can get some real critiques.
 
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