Q&A Sheik Strategy & QnA

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

7 across 6 high
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..:embarrass....

your move : P


also lol at tecs picture in relation to his post

 

[Nihonjin]

Amsah/God! - Do me a favor and drop this fighting. I will give both of you infractions if you guys drag it out.

well i mean I'm sure you're good and being good at smash is mad homo so you're also a ******

Dammit..>.<

 

[Spife]

7 across 6 high
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.......
.......
.......
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..:embarrass....

your move : P


also lol at tecs picture in relation to his post

>_> I am 12 and wat is gravity?

 

[GOD!]

Why is it everytime i come in here you two are fighting.

Cause he's gay. He just mentioned my butt out of nowhere(??).

Also cause it's not nice to have a Q&A thread full of amsah's unchallenged bull****.

It's true, I was rusty and couldn't even L-cancel properly. Never did I claim I would have won had that not been the case though, which would turn a simple fact into a John.

I bet you improved loads playing CPU Fox..

You john to excuse yourself from horrible ****. You implied that you wouldn't have gotten beaten as badly, not that you would have necessarily won. Once again, these are both factual, as earlier stated, but they are still make you look like a big :embarrass ing n00b.

And I actual don't combo things that act predictably lol shame on you lol plz..
The only things I practice by myself with sheik are ledge dashing, pc edge hogs, shino stalling and other weird techy stuff.

][_, [[]] ][_,

Edit: fine. We're done.

If you want to post about the doc match up or any match up, I don't care anymore.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

in all fairness you were both throwing fire.
ok but seriously amsah win pound 4. or at least beat armada and mang0's puff. I will also accept creating world peace but thats plan B.

 

[Spife]

in all fairness you were both throwing fire.
ok but seriously amsah win pound 4. or at least beat armada and mang0's puff. I will also accept creating world peace but thats plan B.

AFTER GOD said Amsah didn't know what he was talking about. "You don't need to finish it" is bull **** when one side is being so agressive.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

I Blame Peach

but seriously thats how it started

 

[Teczer0]

Ok, no need to talk about this guys.

The argument is over lets all just be the Happy Sheik boards again.

 

[Nihonjin]

Ok, I'll be serious with you for once because I'm getting tired of your *******.

Cause he's gay. He just mentioned my butt out of nowhere(??).

Also cause it's not nice to have a Q&A thread full of amsah's unchallenged bull****. .

You keep calling my arguments bull****, that's fine, you don't have to agree with everything (or anything) I say, but you haven't given a single counter argument as to why you disagree.

All you've done is bombard me ridiculous insults like a friggin' 10 year old for absolutely no reason, derailing the entire thread in the process.

So from now on, either elaborate on why you think I'm wrong so we can debate properly or shut the **** up.

Once again, these are both factual, as earlier stated, but they are still make you look like a big :embarrass ing n00b.

Nice Engrish..:embarrass

 

[Spife]

let's not feed trolls
so how about that aerial forward a move eh? I hear it's pretty good.

 

[Teczer0]

let's not feed trolls
so how about that aerial forward a move eh? I hear it's pretty good.

Fair is good? When was this?

 

[Spife]

Fair is good? When was this?

Well ever since the dow dropped down as low as it has....FAIR's been top dawg

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

no way man side b. how can attack that big be bad?!

 

[GOD!]

Thank you for opening up the debate.

I already explained that you don't tilt approaching docs pills. I posted it already, look it up, cause I don't pander to people who ask me to (re)post what I already explained.

You don't know the match up. Good job. I have played it for hours and hours and hours. I have read what doc is supposed to do as well. Guess what?? No sheiks tilt pillrush and fail to get punished 50% of the time. You are in lag, they're not. While you are tiliting, they are lagging. Your tilt hits the pill first, and it can't hit them. you lag even more, while they still have time to do whatever.

Is being gay an insult?? wow dude, way to be even handed.. you talked about me being butt hurt, when I have not been talking about you, just what you say, cause what you say is usually garbage (which you back up with hypothetical situations that can be overcome). Your whole thing about getting on the edge vs peach is garbage because you can get back on the edge and you just refuse to admit that.

If you can't get back on the ledge, then don't get hit off. Counterpick rainbow cruise or something with no real ledge so edge guarding is not a factor for most of the game.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f_Ku_y1YByU

In this video where sheik dominates, mew2king doesn't attack the pills, he avoids them, runs away half the match, and wins with fair, bair, needles, and grabs when he gets them. No approaching or fighting the pills.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TCQNDLawJZY

Notice how hard this sheik is getting **** when he tries to approach the pill rush. @1:10, sheik even bairs the pill rush, but gets grabbed anyway because doc has no lag while sheik was busy attacking a pill.

2:27 Sheik tilts a standing pill from a doc. instead of charging two needles/going to a platform and gaining an advantage. Right after, sheik tries to ftilit a badly spaced pill rush, when she could have done better things to kill (run under?)

2:36 - Sheik runs under the pills. Dsmash, ftiit PROFIT!!

3:55 - Sheik stays on the platform when pill rush comes. no damage, she is close quarters with doc. Without attacking them!!

4:01 - Sheik uses PLATFORMS!!! lolz. she doesn't pointlessly attack a pill.. when doc was standing right there, waiting for it.. if sheik had tilted, dsmash right there for doc, stock without great DI.

regardless of the players' skill levels, the situations still turned out good when sheik didn't try and fight the pills.... lol.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xPoi...E3FC4ED55&playnext=1&playnext_from=PL&index=1

Lesson 2: Don't approach pills during pill spam.

Match one - M2k eats pills all day. You can hear the fairs starting up as he tries to hit them on some of the pills. Doesn't work.
Match two - He jumps over them and bairs or grabs.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7HNxTjX6Kfo

Watch as shroomed, a doc main, who pretty much should know the match up from docs perspective (right?) jumps over pills. Doesn't attack them. He doesn't have platforms to avoid pills from, either. When shroomed needles, doc is forced to approach. Most of the time, shroomed jumps over the pills, probably cause he doesn't want to deal with pill rush (just my guess).

When you attack the pills, you are not spacing yourself correctly to attack doc.

the point: You're wrong. Deal with it.
In the match up, the situations where sheiks don't attack the pills and either 1) go to platforms or 2) run through and jump over pills turn out well for sheik.


Edit: sorry, I had to.

 

[Teczer0]

I wanna say that I want or rather would like you guys to discuss stuff its the point of this thread (Ask questions and discuss sheik things.) so don't worry there's no need to apologize.

I just can't have you guys spam each other flaming. But feel free to discuss the Dr. Mario match up.

When I have time I'll look at your vids and discuss your points, I'm just too tired right now

 

[unknown522]

KirbyKaze:

I'm actually inclined to side with GOD! on this one.

Tilting pills seems silly. Even if they're done so your tilt goes through the pill without the lag, there's a lot more cooldown lag in tilts than aerials (and time without an active hitbox), and good Doc can punish whiffed tilt pretty easily. Or run in and crouch cancel your tilts with their pill and get a free CG or D-smash, which are both uncool.

I do disagree that Fair isn't a good choice. Those MMs are old and P openly stated he sucked at the matchup then, in conjunction with chokesies and other crap (maybe he still sucks at it? idk nor do I care). Moreover... it's Sheik's Fair. Sheik's Fair is always a correct choice

M2K vs DJ Nintendo match 1 is just a testament to how bad M2K can play sometimes.

 

[DJRome]

god, let me know when u get in to rome. im here until the 11th.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What do you guys think about reverse fair instead of bair when edge guarding? i find the trajectory always favorable over the bair's, even though the knockback is about the same.

 

[Teczer0]

What do you guys think about reverse fair instead of bair when edge guarding? i find the trajectory always favorable over the bair's, even though the knockback is about the same.

Reverse fair is just tougher to hit. Bair to me is a better choice because its much easier to land. I suppose if you're competent in landing both it more or less depends on the distance since bair is like 4x bigger than fair.

As a personal preference I typically use bair for long range and nair for close range hits for edgeguarding purposes.

KK - If you tilt a pill the tilt animation stops after it hits the pill. You don't go through the entire animation of the tilt. There is basically no whiff and this is true for all projectiles you're able to use this on. (I.E samus's missles, not fully charged samus plasma shot, turnips not including stitch, etc etc)

Also I concede to tilting pills may not be the best option at all times. But putting up your shield so you can have a pill hit your shield is just silly when you can walk hit the pill and go about your business. It depends on the situation sure but I find hitting projectiles like that quite useful. I think it helps to avoid placing yourself in a situation where you lock yourself in your shield.

Running away is also a valid and good option. They're ALL things that can be used in conjunction which is what I prefer to do. I think people thought I meant tilt like a ton of pills which wasn't my goal. lawl

 

[stelzig]

:embarrass

 

[Dorsey]

What do you guys think about reverse fair instead of bair when edge guarding? i find the trajectory always favorable over the bair's, even though the knockback is about the same.

I think that both when used properly are effective. As for situational use, regarding edgeguards where either would be applicable, it's easier for me to do a bair off of reaction. I've been practicing a lot with the darts lately in order to set me up for usually an easy fair, or whatever aerial that'll work depending on the situation(bair, possibly nair). I try to hit them as far as out as I possibly can(often off screen), and/or trying to time one to where they'll use their jump. Often I'll position myself with my first jump distanced from the ledge, then dart, possibly fast fall, and use my second jump to position for the fair(catches spacies off guard, assuming the dart hits). To me the darts facilitate you to get routine-style gimps on all the top tier chars when off-stage.

Even if marth is close in and going down low to sweetspot before you can get there for a drop zone aerial or whatever edgeguard in time, I try to hit the tip of his sword with darts: if he sweetspots his upB I think you can still hit him with SH darts spaced a hair over the ledge; I've done it to a marth attempting to sweetspot FoD's ledge almost 20x in a row before. IMO, as long as there's no fault in my timing and spacing my darts barely over the edge I think I can hit him full-proof, although i'd like to know for sure. If he can sweetspot around it, it still works enough as a good option if you're late getting to the ledge. Some ledges would be better for this than others too of course. Spacies get destroyed by the darts and off-stage in general all day by sheik. Getting them off-stage can be a different story though...

So, I try to use darts in order to take care of half of my edgeguards before I even have to worry about them, and facilitate the majority of the other half. Not saying it works out every time, though.. bit when it's applicable to your stage positioning it works great.

edit: that was a long post lol.. oh well, at least no one is arguing anymore right? :>

 

[stelzig]

pffft tec0 my post was extremely relevant to the discussion. Alot of thought was put into that smiley

To not get another infraction... Yeah sheik Fair is one of the tougher attacks to reverse hit. But the trajectory should make it pretty obvious that it's always better if you have the opportunity to hit with it (and the confidence that you won't miss the reverse).
With sheiks edgeguarding you tend to get the kill either way if you've already intercepted the recovery once though.

 

[h!tboxexplo!ter]

What do you guys think about reverse fair instead of bair when edge guarding? i find the trajectory always favorable over the bair's, even though the knockback is about the same.

bair is far safer/easier. also ledgedropped bairs = win

 

[DJRome]

the reverse fair hitbox is pretty much exactly above you (i've tested with various char from uthrow and came up with this). this makes it the only option when they recover and it's faster than you can bair. however, it's weaker than ss bair so idk about the option and it generally leaves you at a less favorable position than the bair i find each has its use and are not interchangable

 

[Dorsey]

Additionally, I will use the reverse fair too as an edgeguard occasionally, and the opportunities are seldom yet obvious; I only do it if the opportunity is served to me on a silver platter.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

the reverse fair hitbox is NOT above you.

its on the opposite side of the front hitbox, kinda inside sheik's body. Think of the hitbox as a circle on her hand in front. Now hit with the back of the circle.

anyways, i'm pretty proficient at hitting them (9/10). For example, my friend plays ganon. I just grab the edge and wait for his recovery to come towards the edge. Hes coming down... hes coming down... hes coming down.... ledgehop fair reverse.

Its really not that difficult, i didn't even practice it and i don't main this character....

 

[Lordydennek]

how does the nair do against peachs aerials? or is fair always better?

 

[Dorsey]

the reverse fair hitbox is NOT above you.

its on the opposite side of the front hitbox, kinda inside sheik's body. Think of the hitbox as a circle on her hand in front. Now hit with the back of the circle.

anyways, i'm pretty proficient at hitting them (9/10). For example, my friend plays ganon. I just grab the edge and wait for his recovery to come towards the edge. Hes coming down... hes coming down... hes coming down.... ledgehop fair reverse.

Its really not that difficult, i didn't even practice it and i don't main this character....

Well that's an opportunity that's served up on a silver platter and is easy to hit imo, I would do that too if I didn't have time for something else. Other circumstances could cause me to do it as well. However, at the same time the bair is too good, and if I know for a fact that I can eventually kill him with the bair then I will do so, so that's how I look at it. Letting ganon on the stage for the reverse fair creates a new risk dependent on his ability to survive something like that. I know when spaced properly the odds of ganon sdi-ing to tech are very, very small, but if I ever slipped up my regular practice would likely punish me for it, although it's a particularly hard move to tech. So in short, I prefer using the bair that I know will lead to a kill *eventually* because I feel my chances are better, even if it's barely. I definitely catch myself using the reverse fair mostly on yoshis in that scenario though. There's more opportunities for it there, and more reward.

And yeah, the hitbox isn't above you. I searched for gifs showing it right when I saw that but couldn't find any so I decided not to comment.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

you can do reverse fair in any situation... i edge guard every character with it. Any time you want to use bair, you can wait a split second and reverse fair with better results.

I just think if theres a new trick you want to learn to do to boost your sheik game, this is it.

But if you don't think its any good, just don't do it.

 

[-ACE-]

walljump fair? lol

 

[pockyD]

reverse fair has like negative priority

good vs falcon, ganon, and maybe popo; really hard to use effectively vs anyone else

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Yea i guess its pretty situational, but you're usually given one opportunity if you watch closely. I'd rather take it over taking a bair.

I've sucessfully done it on these characters to get kills/gimps

falco
peach
ganon
falcon
marth

nobody plays any lower tiered characters or the list would be longer.

 

[Spife]

can't we ledge hop fair though?
(I'm sure this was brought up but yeah)

 

[pockyD]

Yea i guess its pretty situational, but you're usually given one opportunity if you watch closely. I'd rather take it over taking a bair.

I've sucessfully done it on these characters to get kills/gimps

falco
peach
ganon
falcon
marth

nobody plays any lower tiered characters or the list would be longer.

we all know ANYTHING would've worked vs falco

falcon and ganon are easy to do it against, i agree

marth and peach though, i can't help but think bair would've been significantly safer, unless you anticipated an airdodge and hit them at the end of it

 

[KirbyKaze]

If you can time the reverse Fair to hit her without being nicked by the Umbrella it's good.

Trying it on Marth most of the time would be really stupid though.

 

[Dorsey]

you can do reverse fair in any situation... i edge guard every character with it. Any time you want to use bair, you can wait a split second and reverse fair with better results.

I just think if theres a new trick you want to learn to do to boost your sheik game, this is it.

But if you don't think its any good, just don't do it.

Well as long as you keep in mind that the bair is much more capable of outspacing / winning the many spacing battles that occur with sheik v. the characters you listed, and your proficient at recognizing the instances in which the reverse fair would be viable being that you're more likely to get punished in general using a move that is more likely to get outspaced...........then yeah, I guess it's alright. But obviously you would be worse off with substituting that every time for the bair. For me, I find it's best use when it's obvious and the opportunity is served up nice for you. However, saying that 'you can wait a split second and reverse fair with better results' is just not true. The reverse fair definitely has it's applicable use but no way does it *always* have better results, and abusing it like your suggesting(as a rule using the reverse fair instead of the bair because it has better results???) isn't the smartest thing to do, imo.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Reverse Fair is the best move sometimes, I will definitely concede that.

But I think Sheik is so good we can get away without using the best move a lot, and aim for consistency.

 

[DJRome]

sorry, when i say above i meant it's above where you u uthrow so that's a good idea to try to get used to the hitbox

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik's Fair naturally starts above her head.

The reverse part is the back part of the hitbox (the red blob). I'm not sure if it's half of the hitbox, or not, or whether it varies for the move, so don't ask.

There's a reverse hitbox on all three hitboxes of the animation, though, so there's a lot of ways to get it too.

THE MORE YOU KNOW

 

[Dorsey]

Reverse Fair is the best move sometimes, I will definitely concede that.

But I think Sheik is so good we can get away without using the best move a lot, and aim for consistency.

Agreed

since kk edited:

Just figured I'd post frames 5, 6, and 7 of the 3 frame hitbox of sheik's fair being that he posted one(6) and I found my pics of it