Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[soap]

needle camping is not the problem in falcon vs sheik

it is for many other characters vs sheik, but for falcon its not that big of a deal, and will probably leave sheik vulnerable as often as it will give her an advantage

i fully endorse this statement

 

[DtJ Jungle]

It leaves her vulnerable vs most characters. Which is why it's pretty much just theory. It's simply too slow to be used as a projectile like fox's or falco's

 

[P.C. Jona]

the point is if your scared to approach and wait for sheik to approach because you dont want to get tilt ***** when you try to do anything, your gonna dash dance around

and she can just throw needles at you if your not doing anything

 

[JBM falcon08]

needle camping does not leave her vulnerable in ALOT of matchups.

but to stay on topic BigD is right sheik can't really needle camp him.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

A lot of the match ups that matter anyway.

Btw tilts shouldnt be your biggest fear until you are at like 30 percent. until then you should be worried about her grabs, which are ****.

 

[Tomacawk]

heh well thanks everybody, didn't mean to start so much board drama

 

[tubes]

the point is if your scared to approach and wait for sheik to approach because you dont want to get tilt ***** when you try to do anything, your gonna dash dance around

and she can just throw needles at you if your not doing anything

But see the whole reason we dash dance around anyone in the first place is to bait the other player into doing something we can punish. I would consider needles very punishable seeing as falcon can short hop nair across like 3/4's of FD. If we can deal with Falco's lasers then needles should be a piece of cake. sheiks tech chase on the other hand... yea gonna wanna avoid getting grabbed.

 

[Faithkeeper]

Not necessarily a falcon question, but:

Can you buffer a roll out of a tech roll?

 

[Mogwai]

yes .

 

[tubes]

Not necessarily a falcon question, but:

Can you buffer a roll out of a tech roll?

Yes, as well as spot-dodge and (I think) jump.

 

[DrewB008]

sheiks needles are surprisingly effective against space animals, and obviously effective vs marth. it is very good vs jiggs, peach, ice climbers, samus, and anybody slow in the air if youre on a level with platforms.

just cause they leave you a little vulnerable doesnt mean you cant do it, everything in the game leaves you a little vulnerable

junglefever, tilts are at least as annoying in this matchup just because they are chiefly responsible for falcons inability to approach. ftilt is basically all that really matters vs falcon, and that at least trades with all of his moves. not saying the grab isnt absolutely devastating, but tilts are what limit falcons options and therefore gets sheik grabs a lot of the time.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Needle camping is more than a theory. Nobody is really gonna sit there and say im literally only going to throw needles.

They can be a huge hindrance. Also with ledge cancels off platforms that is even more ****.

As bigD said, Tilts make falcon very difficult to approach with and then grabs ****ing ****.

@whoever said some **** about falcon nairing 3/4 of the stage. What idiot is going to throw needles as you are using a move that has higher priority and will take advantage of your temp vulnerability. They will just wait for u to turn around or dash dance.

 

[Binx]

Well you don't so much needle camp as you do platform camp while have the ability to throw needles, basically Falcon knows that if all he does is run around eventually sheik can start chucking a 3 damage projectile every once in a while, if he gets too close she has more range and priority than him, also if he does get to approach she has really good grab options against him if he makes a small mistake.

Also the edgeguarding can be very one sided, needle x 1000 to bair x 1000. Falcon can edgeguard sheik well at higher percents but she can edgeguard him well at all percents.

 

[tubes]

Needle camping is more than a theory. Nobody is really gonna sit there and say im literally only going to throw needles.

They can be a huge hindrance. Also with ledge cancels off platforms that is even more ****.

As bigD said, Tilts make falcon very difficult to approach with and then grabs ****ing ****.

@whoever said some **** about falcon nairing 3/4 of the stage. What idiot is going to throw needles as you are using a move that has higher priority and will take advantage of your temp vulnerability. They will just wait for u to turn around or dash dance.

I wasn't actually saying to try to jump 3/4 of the stage to punish a needle. you can jump that far but realistically your gonna have to keep a bit closer but I see your point. I gotta test this later but I think theres a range where if sheik tries a needle you can react and punish so you can use that as kind of a dead zone. This is still just a theory though. A theory which still only would really work on FD where platforms aren't a factor.

 

[Scar]

loool i actually do, i don't think you understand the different levels of sheik vs falcons

top level falcons seem to be beating high level sheiks nowadays but that's it. there are very few good sheiks left, so once you get really good at the game and good with CF etc etc, sheiks should not really be a problem

 

[DtJ Jungle]

The skill discrepency between top level falcons compared to top level sheiks seems to be growing. People don't play Sheik anymore because they find it boring.

 

[KAOSTAR]

Very true. Nobody will cheer for u if u play sheik lol.

You gotta so something other than jab grab fair lol.

Shieks soooo boring.

@tubes dont for get that sheik can also reaact space and throw needles, not to mention use platforms and all kinds of crab.

I look at sheik as somebody only a noob would use to play with better ppl.

she disgusts me. Ruined OOT for me lol[because of her smash rep[like a 6th or 7th time. I had beaten if way b4 lol]]

 

[SuperMatt]

if people would stop playing foxes more sheiks would show up I bet........so you falcons are lucky there are so many foxes

maybe im the only one who hates sheik v fox

 

[NES n00b]

if people would stop playing foxes more sheiks would show up I bet........so you falcons are lucky there are so many foxes

maybe im the only one who hates sheik v fox

I laughed...like that is really lucky. I guess it is slightly better than Sheik. But then again, this coming from the Sheik main who goes Falco on Falcons.

 

[tubes]

Very true. Nobody will cheer for u if u play sheik lol.

You gotta so something other than jab grab fair lol.

Shieks soooo boring.

@tubes dont for get that sheik can also reaact space and throw needles, not to mention use platforms and all kinds of crab.

I look at sheik as somebody only a noob would use to play with better ppl.

she disgusts me. Ruined OOT for me lol[because of her smash rep[like a 6th or 7th time. I had beaten if way b4 lol]]

Ya but once the needle has been fired you have enough time to nair over it in theory. Doesn't really work on platform stages and doesn't stop 0-death techchases but at least on FD you can theoretically keep from being forced to approach. Or you could just go sheik yourself and grab 4 times. Lol sheik dittos.

 

[soap]

Ya but once the needle has been fired you have enough time to nair over it in theory. Doesn't really work on platform stages and doesn't stop 0-death techchases but at least on FD you can theoretically keep from being forced to approach. Or you could just go sheik yourself and grab 4 times. Lol sheik dittos.

u guys need to watch out for those sheiks that pretend to shoot but put it away, then **** u for jumping across the stage like an idiot

 

[tubes]

u guys need to watch out for those sheiks that pretend to shoot but put it away, then **** u for jumping across the stage like an idiot

gotta wait til the needle has been thrown dude.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Very true. Nobody will cheer for u if u play sheik lol.

You gotta so something other than jab grab fair lol.

Shieks soooo boring.

@tubes dont for get that sheik can also reaact space and throw needles, not to mention use platforms and all kinds of crab.

I look at sheik as somebody only a noob would use to play with better ppl.

she disgusts me. Ruined OOT for me lol[because of her smash rep[like a 6th or 7th time. I had beaten if way b4 lol]]

I think Falcon's really interesting.

brb dash dance.

edit: Falcon's issue vs Sheik IMO is her moves being faster than his, having more priority than his, and that her F-tilt / Bair / Fair / several other moves can plow straight through his Nair even if Falcon's spacing is perfect. She also has a distinct lack of lag, so to punish her F-tilts or whatever you have to have it just miss you, which is a danger in and of itself. She also punishes him harder than vice versa.

I'm sure I missed something though, someone correct me.

 

[SuperMatt]

i think you have to play defensively as falcon against sheik....cause I know whenever I am really agressive against falcons they start to whoop me

but if the sheik just waits for the falcon to come on over, she has it made in the shade

 

[KirbyKaze]

a lot of melee's matchups boil down to close-range camping with movement stuff, waiting for the other to crack and do something

 

[skyheart]

top level falcons seem to be beating high level sheiks nowadays but that's it. there are very few good sheiks left, so once you get really good at the game and good with CF etc etc, sheiks should not really be a problem

oh that reminds me, is sheik still your worst matchup?

 

[Mogwai]

scar's worst matchup has pretty much always been Falco.

 

[Scar]

no i beat sheiks pretty hard actually, my worst matchup is falco, other than that i'm bad vs chars i have little exp against.

kirbykaze sheik raps falcon in basically every way besides mobility which is actually quite important in this game.

here's how i see it, sheik always gets first hits in against technical falcons b/c they aren't smart, and she gets slightly less than all of them vs smart falcons, but most of them aren't great at comboing.

the best falcons are smart, fast, and can combo very well. i think that falcon punishes sheik harder from each hit, and on the defensive end good DI isn't hard vs her very predictable combos. bottom line the matchup is extremely lopsided until the CF player is very skilled, then the matchup turns into something else.

 

[skyheart]

definitely would like to see more of you vs good sheiks, it sounds exciting

 

[Teczer0]

no i beat sheiks pretty hard actually, my worst matchup is falco, other than that i'm bad vs chars i have little exp against.

kirbykaze sheik raps falcon in basically every way besides mobility which is actually quite important in this game.

here's how i see it, sheik always gets first hits in against technical falcons b/c they aren't smart, and she gets slightly less than all of them vs smart falcons, but most of them aren't great at comboing.

the best falcons are smart, fast, and can combo very well. i think that falcon punishes sheik harder from each hit, and on the defensive end good DI isn't hard vs her very predictable combos. bottom line the matchup is extremely lopsided until the CF player is very skilled, then the matchup turns into something else.

Being a sheik player I have to agree.

I've seen you play Vanz's sheik countless times and I can completely see what you are talking about.

I also have quite a difficult time beating Spam's CF just because at points it gets terrifying to do ANYTHING. CF's punishment game against sheik is so strong.

I think the only 2 stages that sheik truly has a huge advantage is on the small stages namely, YS and FoD. Mainly because I feel it limits falcon's mobility.

So now that I went off topic, Scar do you feel comfortable fighting just about any sheik on any stage?

EDIT: Smashboards is the worst tool to use to study for finals.

 

[Scar]

if it's not m2k then bring it on

i'm comfortable with all of the CP stages vs her, in fact i think CF gets an advantage on basically all of them, and i ban fountain so yeah. fountain may be better than story tho b/c CF can camp dairs all day on fountain from the platforms, and sheik has a hard time dealing with a direct attack from above

@skyheart yeah i'd like to see how i do too, but it seems that there are no more good sheiks around. tope and plank still exist but we rarely play esp not in tourney, reno quit as soon as i got good at the matchup, and vanz uses jiggs against me now lol

 

[Teczer0]

What about me Scar?

 

[Scar]

LOL

enter singles!!! ame didn't even pay for your broke *** @ spoc this time. i haven't played a friendly with you in like 45 years. you'd prob **** me tho TEC HEROOOOO WAS IT THAT HARD SLIQ?!

 

[Teczer0]

Omg I really wanted to play >_>.

I really wanna play you and/or Pakman in tourney.

Pakman seemed to get a lot better vs sheik than he was the last time I played him.

I'm not sure I'd go sheik vs you... maybe LOL. At RoM I went Fox vs Jiano

Oh and I'll enter if ... well when I'm not broke LOL.

I was planning to enter SPOC singles if me and spam got placed for money, but we decided to go on an SD spree lawl

/fail johns

 

[NES n00b]

scar's worst matchup has pretty much always been Falco.

That is every Falcon's worse matchup. >_>

 

[Scar]

i think it's common knowledge that sheik is falcon's worst matchup nowadays actually, i've been given the impression that i was on the fringe for thinking that falco is harder. others still say fox.

tec0 whoever you play i'm sure it'll be awesome, and yeah pakman did get way better vs sheik, i'm very proud of him. i just went back and watched pound 3 crews lol toooo good.

 

[Teczer0]

And with that, I'm looking forward to the next time I play you =D.

Too bad I dunno when that is LOL.

LMFAO @ pound3 crews. I love pound 3 ^_^

 

[SuperMatt]

why dont falcons counterpick yoshi's more often? if you get a stomp knee at like 40% or more vs falco he's basically dead...i know it's hard to move and stuff but I would think it'd be worth it...

also the spacie has less teching options due to the stage being so small

 

[KirbyKaze]

@skyheart yeah i'd like to see how i do too, but it seems that there are no more good sheiks around. tope and plank still exist but we rarely play esp not in tourney, reno quit as soon as i got good at the matchup, and vanz uses jiggs against me now lol

plaaaaaaaaaaaaay meeeeeeeeeeeeee

i'm bad but it'll add funny to your next combo video :D

 

[Tomacawk]

matt, I enjoy yoshis against spacies quite a bit. (i know im not a top level falcon though LOL)
FoD is ****ing weaksauce, though