Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[crush]

Ronecuddler ftw

 

[_Rocky_]

Played melee for 9 hours yesterday and reached a sort of epiphany vs falco. Good reaction speed and safe play essentially beats him as a character. Whenever my opponent would try to lazer i would either nair, side b, powershield grab or full hop stomp him. The games where i was playing at my peak i felt that my consistency with it made my opponent think lazers were risky, making him try to poke me with a dash attack or aerial instead, which i would also be able to react to and punish hard. Almost every freaking grab gave him 40%+ or got him offstage/killed.

I still have lots of **** to work on in this matchup but i feel like i'm finally beginning to get the hang of how to play it =)

Stuff that caught my eye mid match was that i would occasionally jab him after a stomp/uthrow, which isn't guaranteed and only leads to a regrab pretty much anyway. I guess i could start going for a full gentleman instead of just a single jab but dunno if he can smash DI out of it or not.

I also had some issues edgeguarding him when he would recover low. I often just jumped offstage with a knee/uair like a flying penis to cover his sweetspot/onstage side b. Tried fixing this by waiting near the ledge and utilting him instead. It worked but i gotta work on my timing . Also, it felt like him sweetspotting the ledge with a double jump was super safe. Can i punish it with a well-timed dair or something?
Another cool thing about edgeguarding was that i was super consistent on jabbing him out of side b. Like a boss lol

My techchasing was also really ****ing good, remembering not to jc standing grabs really helped. I do however need to abuse spots where i can cover multiple options more (such as trapping him on a platform with dair).

A big flaw i had that cost me lots of games was that i double jumped too stupidly. Even though abusing your vertical movement vs falco is AMAZING doing it too predictably or in risky situations is BAD. A very clear example of this that also has no justification was that i liked to double jump instead of full hop before wavelanding on platforms. My opponent caught on to this and punished me quite a few times, getting kills at 40-50%.

I also need to improve at punishing his options after teching. I could punish his snap utilt/shines/rolls/spotdodges decently but he sometimes caught me with aerials or grabs.

Resetting the match to neutral also worked really well. If i messed up i would just get the hell outta there and restart at square one. Even if i could only land a nair or bair, each hit would accumulate and eventually lead to a knockdown, letting me take control again.

That's it i guess lol, made a long *** post for no real reason
...****

(also welcome back blasthomer)

 

[Winston]

Stuff that caught my eye mid match was that i would occasionally jab him after a stomp/uthrow, which isn't guaranteed and only leads to a regrab pretty much anyway. I guess i could start going for a full gentleman instead of just a single jab but dunno if he can smash DI out of it or not.

If it's at like mid percents and you have the chance to jab him you should just grab him instead. If he's too low percent for that I think you should wait for him to land and techchase, but a gentleman is probably fine to mix in as well (though I think it can be SDIed).

I also had some issues edgeguarding him when he would recover low. I often just jumped offstage with a knee/uair like a flying penis to cover his sweetspot/onstage side b. Tried fixing this by waiting near the ledge and utilting him instead. It worked but i gotta work on my timing . Also, it felt like him sweetspotting the ledge with a double jump was super safe. Can i punish it with a well-timed dair or something?
Another cool thing about edgeguarding was that i was super consistent on jabbing him out of side b. Like a boss lol

Jumping offstage "like a flying penis" with knee covers pretty much all of his normal recovery options, so you should definitely keep doing it. Go for safe edgeguards like utilt/ftilting him by default, but save it as a surprise so it keeps its max effectiveness. If you do it like 1/3-1/4 of the time or something I imagine it'll work almost every time.

The reason I don't think standing onstage and utilt/ftilting him is the one answer is because shortening beats it pretty hard =(

As for the double jump sweetspot thing - is he shinestalling before it? You could try jumping offstage with a knee to hit him out of the shinestall. If not, try grabbing the edge and forcing him to airdodge or something imo.

SS used to always use utilt to hit them out of DJs to the edge and it always worked in 08-09, haha. It'll probably work sometimes if your opponent isn't that precise.

My techchasing was also really ****ing good, remembering not to jc standing grabs really helped. I do however need to abuse spots where i can cover multiple options more (such as trapping him on a platform with dair).

When he's near the edge is the biggest chance for you to cover multiple options. It's soooo good.

Also remember to use side B for techchase finishes!! covering 3/4 of his options at any stage position and usually leading to a knee is pretty ****

A big flaw i had that cost me lots of games was that i double jumped too stupidly. Even though abusing your vertical movement vs falco is AMAZING doing it too predictably or in risky situations is BAD. A very clear example of this that also has no justification was that i liked to double jump instead of full hop before wavelanding on platforms. My opponent caught on to this and punished me quite a few times, getting kills at 40-50%.

Yea this is a really good point. I think Falcons have been kind of trained to use double jumping as much as possible and not use full jumping because it looks cooler and faster, but full jumping is pretty awesome vs. Falco. Quite hard for him to punish, and saving your double jump affords you a lot more options. Mango is awesome vs. Falco in the matchup and he full jumps a lot which looks really dumb at times but it works out really well.

And yea lol. When playing vs. Falcon as Falco/anybody one of my favorite things is getting those stupid 50% KOs cause you guess his double jump =D

I also need to improve at punishing his options after teching. I could punish his snap utilt/shines/rolls/spotdodges decently but he sometimes caught me with aerials or grabs.

He actually has quite a few options after teching if he's smart about it, so I think the best answer to this is just to techchase on reaction well enough so that the few times that you let him tech and bait his reaction, he'll do a predictable response.

 

[0Room]

Don't forget that dtilt covers the ledge pretty well too.
But yeah I've been doing what you did too, Rocky.

Watching Darkrain play Matt R was really eyeopening in that respect. Keeping close so that lasers are a bad idea makes that matchup really cool and good

 

[JPOBS]

Good reaction speed and safe play essentially beats him as a character.

Woah, easy there space cowboy!

 

[Winston]

Don't forget that dtilt covers the ledge pretty well too.

Way worse than ftilt I think

 

[Palpi]

Yeah, I would rather opt to utilt or ftilt in most, if not all edgeguarding situations.

Some people blow **** at utilting for some reason though.

 

[Roneblaster]

Dtilting is bad for edgeguarding. It pops them up into the air giving u probably an upair at best. Daft and uptilt can actually kill them.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

huh? I've seen plently of falcons edgeguard with dtilt->knee

 

[Wenbobular]

It's pretty subpar, I don't see what options it covers that DAFT and uptilt don't cover better ...

I did see Hax do ledgehop turnaround Dtilt to cover a sweetspot from above Firefox angle, that was pretty tight

 

[0Room]

Dtilting multiple times until they DI the way you want them to is pretty ****
And knowing the option is there is better than not having one

utilting side b consistently is fairly hard if not impossible
You'd have to predict

Dtilt you can do on reaction
So there's a time and place for everything

 

[Divinokage]

You can always just knee edgeguard too.. it's a simple and for sure edgeguard lol.

 

[Winston]

Dtilt you can do on reaction
So there's a time and place for everything

There's the simple problem that they can illusion sweetspot under the dtilt... Ftilt you can also do on reaction, but it hits their sweetspot.

You can always just knee edgeguard too.. it's a simple and for sure edgeguard lol.

huh??? How are we simple and for sure edgeguarding illusion sweetspots with knee? are we jumping offstage?

 

[ChivalRuse]

are we jumping offstage?

Do it for Mufasa!

 

[Roneblaster]

Lol channel ur inner lionking my ***

 

[0Room]

Yeah you're right
I thought it did but only if you literally sit on the ledge
With your butt on it

Because that's the only hitbox that hits that low
Oh well it's still pretty good

I try to use DAFT but I'll always too far away

Spoiler

D Tilt

Total: 35
Hit: 10-15
IASA: 35

 

[Winston]

Haha, wouldn't you have to be on the very edge AND backwards?

That'd be a great edgeguard

 

[DuckPimp]

that would be so badass

 

[Roneblaster]

Ive done reverse dtilt edgeguard in falcon dittos b4, i dont remember what happened but i remember we got hype

 

[0Room]

Super stylin

 

[tarheeljks]

johnny beat shroomed today. dude is so ****ing good, sets were good and will hopefully be up soon

 

[Wenbobular]

Guessing with Utilt is just better than trying to Dtilt them, you're just giving up so many options when you use Dtilt ~_~

 

[DuckPimp]

Ive done reverse dtilt edgeguard in falcon dittos b4, i dont remember what happened but i remember we got hype

how does that hitbox hit them? about the same as normal?

 

[Deleted member]

traveled to a norcal local

good matches IMO, recorded too

 

[Roneblaster]

i dont remember what happened ryan XD

but yea, i think i hit them with my butt hitbox.

 

[S l o X]

at early percents against spacies, how do you decide whether to use dthrow or uthrow? i was watching scar v sfat and just saw him switch it up randomly.

 

[Palpi]

Honestly, I don't know if it really matters. I think someone said that Darkrain uthrows sometimes because it is easier to read/react to their DI. (for instance, if they always roll away when they DI away or something along those lines)

 

[SonuvaBeach]

Upthrow gives you more time to react, which is inherently a good thing. Dthrow is good for mixups and to get their "go-to" tech sometimes, but especially at low percents it is pretty hard to react to against spacies.

 

[0Room]

Yeah it really doesn't matter
Sometimes if they're just running off of muscle memory they could mistime the uthrow tech by doing the dthrow tech
[I think it could still be in a techable window it's just a theory]

uthrow gives them a lot of time to think relatively
So use that as you will

 

[Deleted member]

I prefer downthrow a LOT more but sometimes you have no choice but to up-throw since d-throw will put them to safety

 

[JPeGImage]

Your opponent will sometimes have distinct tech patterns that are specific to which way you throw them. And with uthrow, the patterns are easier to catch when they tech based on how they di the throw. . . . even though, my reads off throws have been abysmal in the past few months, as I try to rely more and more off of regrabs and baiting spotdodges
These patterns still exist though, and should be paid attention to
Also, a +1 to what 0room says

Also, and this is very rarely, if I am mindful of it at the time, I definitely dthrow when facing ledges and am far enough away to know that they cant di the dthrow enough to fall past the ledge to grab on.
At least with the spacies I play with, I know they really want to fall far enough to get the ledge when I start to throwtechchase them, and so if they are always too far away to grab on the ledge (even with good di), I know they are di'ing away (while never looking to di in) and will always be free to get hit by a knee/dair at the edge (considering that they will land in a spot where, even if they tech roll left, they will remain in practically the same spot as if they missed the tech instead of).
And unless im way off, this is an aim for most (if not all) spacies when they start to get grabbed at low (actually, all) %s.

 

[REDfox1]

I react faster with downthrow lol I techchase eggm n jman to death sometimes with it

-nando

 

[JonnyW]

traveled to a norcal local

good matches IMO, recorded too

I wanna see new S2J matches

 

[DuckPimp]

I react faster with downthrow lol I techchase eggm n jman to death sometimes with it

-nando

i want to watch falcon techchase everyone forever

 

[ryankam10]

I really wanna start using upthrow more , it is MUCH easier to tech chase imo, when you upthrow it becomes more of a calculated thing where you're able to follow their DI while in the air and react accordingly whereas with downthrow its a little bit too fast... Tech chasing with downthrown is really tough on spacies unless you already sort of have an idea of where theyre going, but then it isnt tech chasing on reaction anymore

plus you can do other **** with an upthrow like gentleman or a tilt or something if they DI in.

I just feel it is so much easier to respond to a tech after you follow their DI with a dash, anyone else feel this way? It's just one of those things where the dash following their DI just helps to clear your mind and puts you in the mindset of "Ok, now i can really react to anything they do and they cant get out of it"

 

[S l o X]

at higher percents where if they can di your uthrow so you can't knee but you can dthrow regrab, i usually just dthrow regard uthrow so they 1) miss the di 2) end up above me in position for a knee or uair.

i'm probably playing at pc chris' today, i'll try to mix it up at lower percents. i feel like i'm better against falco than fox now because all i play against is marth / falco and i don't dash dance as much as i should.

 

[Deleted member]

what I don't like as much about up-throw is that it seems like its easier for the opponent to read your tech-chase intentions, but falcons speed is great at making up for it

 

[KirbyKaze]

Up throw certainly gives the opponent more time to think about what you're doing to do.

 

[Walt]

Well obviously every Falcon is going to Do the Dew, KK.

 

[crush]

foar ronecuddler
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pfBVMZvOcvM&feature=channel_video_title