Scar talks Lean Melee [2012YotF]

[Juggleguy]

We had discussions on whether it's possible to react + regrab, and concluded the answer is no for spacies, but what about in Falcon dittos? It seems really.. REALLY easy to regrab tech chase on reaction in dittos. Assuming the opponent always techs and doesn't do optimal away DI, I'm willing to bet it's guaranteed

 

[Divinokage]

It's not guaranteed on Falcon just a bit easier... I think spacies are pretty easy to regrab on reaction too, why do you think it isn't possible?

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

why cant you do the tope chase with falcon? I see hax/m2k do it all the time

 

[BigD!!!]

its basically as easy vs fox as it is vs falcon

falco is a little harder due to the longer side techs, but still doable

i cant regrab techs in place on reaction against anybody except probably mewtwo anyway though

 

[0Room]

you talk like you know silentspectre to a guy whos watched SS vids for years and you aren't even subscribed to HMW's channel

jeff isn't sandbagging. I already told you he's a minimalist falcon and his style is unique to him and works best for him. Its easy to perceive when he isn't trying especially vs people who are a lot worse than him, jeff kinda gets smacked around and then last stock he annihilates them. He isn't doing that here. He goes for smart plays but Shroomed is pretty much a step ahead each time. Not moving like a modern day non-SS doesn't mean he's not trying.

W/E

Yeah you're right
After I stopped being confused about how the **** you were yelling at me [for the whole BigD thing of all things] I thought about it

And it is just a difference in style
which I re-mentioned but didn't really expand on
So I apologize

I dunno I just have conventions of how I perceive certain things and I guess I really don't understand the full extent of how much styles can be different
So
Oh well
Again I'll try to refrain from using my templates for people I don't know
----

Anyway
Juggleguy who told you you can't regrab on reaction
Following tech chases with grabs is one of the best things you can do
For multiple reasons, which if you want to know can be covered later

I mean, you can't whiff knee and regrab if that's what you were talking about
So if you're talking about whiffing knee [tech in place timing] and then trying to regrab falcon's roll
I honestly don't know
But as a rule that [whiffing knee->regrab] doesn't work lol

 

[Deleted member]

We had discussions on whether it's possible to react + regrab, and concluded the answer is no for spacies, but what about in Falcon dittos? It seems really.. REALLY easy to regrab tech chase on reaction in dittos. Assuming the opponent always techs and doesn't do optimal away DI, I'm willing to bet it's guaranteed

pretty guaranteed if you up-throw and you are next to them when their body hits the floor, very easy to react. Up-throw is good cuz it gives you more time to prepare, doesnt matter if it is 'slower' overall

the flaw to grabbing over and over though, is that on smaller stages they'll eventually escape through the edge or use plats to escape up-throws so you have to use the slightly less reliable d-throw

I usually go for 1 or 2 grabs then go for the read/guess, but a lot of people are starting to be ghey and say I suck at falcon dittos cuz I lost 1 match to PP and dropped a close match to lucky. If I really want to win, I will undoubtedly turn up the gay

==

also, unless I do the be next to them where their body lands technique, I simply can't regrab tech in place in time

 

[tarheeljks]

It's not guaranteed on Falcon just a bit easier... I think spacies are pretty easy to regrab on reaction too, why do you think it isn't possible?

why cant you do the tope chase with falcon? I see hax/m2k do it all the time

anecdotally it seems like long series of regrabs occur infrequently enough (against space animals) that tech chasing solely off reaction is extremely difficult to do consistently. feels substantially easier to regrab techs in/away out of uthrow, but dthrow feels like it leads to heavier punishes (could be memory bias obv)

edit: idk, i guess in this instance i'm pretty comfortable saying that if it could be done on reaction that we'd see it more consistently. i've seen hax do it as much as anyone in videos, but all the time seems like a stretch. never seen m2k's falcon

 

[0Room]

Extremely difficult yes
Possible yes
I think one of the biggest problems is allowing yourself to have a completely open mind
and not guessing where they're going to tech. because that's kind of a natural reaction to go "I know where you're going to go!" even when you wanna sit down and watch

Also regrabbing tech in places is really hard

M2K vs Mango dittos

 

[Winston]

We had discussions on whether it's possible to react + regrab, and concluded the answer is no for spacies, but what about in Falcon dittos? It seems really.. REALLY easy to regrab tech chase on reaction in dittos. Assuming the opponent always techs and doesn't do optimal away DI, I'm willing to bet it's guaranteed

Definitely possible. The margins of error are the same as Sheik has vs. spacies, and it's accepted that Sheik can do it, though it's difficult. The main reasons that it's worse are that they can DI farther away from your throw than from Sheik's, and you don't have a reaction techchase that launches them at mid percents.

Like BigD said, the difficulty on Fox is the same as it is on Falcon. Fox's techrolls are really, really short, and the tech in place time is pretty much the same among all the characters. Falco is harder but doable.

I think the reason people think Falcon is easy to reaction techchase is because not every Falcon player buffers rolls when they tech in place, letting you get away with being a bit slow, while most Fox/Falco players will shine immediately. But seriously, it's the same margin of error.

pretty guaranteed if you up-throw and you are next to them when their body hits the floor, very easy to react. Up-throw is good cuz it gives you more time to prepare, doesnt matter if it is 'slower' overall

the flaw to grabbing over and over though, is that on smaller stages they'll eventually escape through the edge or use plats to escape up-throws so you have to use the slightly less reliable d-throw

Yea, it starts being less good at mid percents if they always DI away cause then they can get to the edge pretty easily. But at low percents they can't go as far from your throw, so if they start going to the edge you can get them in the spot where you throw, they DI away but don't reach the edge, and if you guess the techroll towards with knee/stomp you still get to cover missed tech/techroll away cause the edge cuts off their roll away. Run through them -> side B towards the center of the stage also gets a lot better in this position.

But yea getting reads is definitely still necessary because of what you said.

also, unless I do the be next to them where their body lands technique, I simply can't regrab tech in place in time

You can pretty much always do the "be next to them when they land" though if you just react to their DI. If they DI slight away, walk or wavedash. If full away do 1 dash, if behind turn around in place.

 

[tarheeljks]

isn't sheik's running grab faster, though i guess that's offset by running speed


edit: still, the sheiks seem better than the falcons at tech chasing space animals in practice. guess it is fuzzy as to whether that is due to player or character abilities, but when i played falco i was more worried about getting out of a tech chase by a typical sheik than a falcon. not that getting tech chased by falcon isn't intimidating, but i was worried about different things

edit2:

with sheik it was like "let's, hope i don't get regrabbed a bajillion times." falcon was more like "hope he isn't right more than twice"

 

[Divinokage]

anecdotally it seems like long series of regrabs occur infrequently enough (against space animals) that tech chasing solely off reaction is extremely difficult to do consistently. feels substantially easier to regrab techs in/away out of uthrow, but dthrow feels like it leads to heavier punishes (could be memory bias obv)

edit: idk, i guess in this instance i'm pretty comfortable saying that if it could be done on reaction that we'd see it more consistently. i've seen hax do it as much as anyone in videos, but all the time seems like a stretch. never seen m2k's falcon

Well with Falcon, I'd probably do a few grabs to increase the % just a little bit and then start trying to chase with knees or dairs instead since it's a lot more dmg. It's not really about what it leads to, at 0% uthrow or dthrow doesn't really matter on Fastfallers... just do what you are more comfortable with.

 

[Zoler]

Personally it feels easier to techchase spacies with falcon than sheik. With falcon it feels really guaranteed, and with sheik it's probably guaranteed but you need pretty good reaction speed to make the tech away.

 

[0Room]

At 0%-~25% you can knee->regrab because they don't fall over

edit;
misread and that's not really what you were talking about
But even so that's some good info to know

 

[Winston]

isn't sheik's running grab faster, though i guess that's offset by running speed


edit: still, the sheiks seem better than the falcons at tech chasing space animals in practice. guess it is fuzzy as to whether that is due to player or character abilities, but when i played falco i was more worried about getting out of a tech chase by a typical sheik than a falcon. not that getting tech chased by falcon isn't intimidating, but i was worried about different things

1).

The main reasons that it's worse are that they can DI farther away from your throw than from Sheik's, and you don't have a reaction techchase that launches them at mid percents.

2).

A lot of Falcon players think it's gay, so they aren't constantly practicing it. This is probably the biggest reason.

3). If you watch for it, you'll see sheik players mess up grabbing the tech in place all the time as well. A lot of times they cover it by guessing with usmash, or baiting the spotdodge, just like falcon players.

 

[0Room]

A lot of Falcon players think it's gay, so they aren't constantly practicing it. This is probably the biggest reason.

Think what's gay?
Tech chasing with grabs?

 

[tarheeljks]

@winston

1) so it is harder to react? even if they have the same # of available frames to process everything, if falcon has read di more efficiently then he's going to mess up more.

2) this is prob true lol. although on some level the difficulty of setting up a ko directly from the grab (on spacies) makes regrabbing repeatedly less appealing/practical

3) yeah i didn't mean to say never mess up

 

[Divinokage]

I mean I wish I could do that with Ganon.. when I techchase with grabs a lot, it feels pretty good to know you are caging your opponent. lol.

 

[Wenbobular]

Sheik has the bonus of being able to walk to where they land ... Falcon has to dash if they full DI away, which makes it kinda awkward sometimes to position yourself to be where they land to react to tech in place

Plus Sheik has an actual jab reset so ... <_<

 

[Winston]

@winston

1) so it is harder to react? even if they have the same # of available frames to process everything, if falcon has read di more efficiently then he's going to mess up more.

2) this is prob true lol. although on some level the difficulty of setting up a ko directly from the grab (on spacies) makes regrabbing repeatedly less appealing/practical

3) yeah i didn't mean to say never mess up

1). No, I don't think it's harder once the Falcon player learns how to position himself. But since they go farther, it means they can reach platforms/the edge of the stage faster while taking less damage.

2). Yea, that's why it's not the end all be all. But it's still useful. Also vs. Falco, using raptor boost to cover 3/4 tech options to finish the regrab techchasing is really efficient, since he can't punish you even if you miss, and it usually leads to a finisher.

 

[Zoler]

Sheik has the bonus of being able to walk to where they land ... Falcon has to dash if they full DI away, which makes it kinda awkward sometimes to position yourself to be where they land to react to tech in place

Plus Sheik has an actual jab reset so ... <_<

In PAL you have to do this with sheik as well, but it doesn't really matter, it's not hard to do a dash / wavedash after throwing.

 

[Strong Badam]

Falcon vs. Peach is so hard. I feel like I'm moving really fast and precisely and spacing really well, and then I get hit and die.

 

[Winston]

Last time I played it it felt perfectly fine to me. Sometimes I'd get punished for a lot of damage, but Falcon's really heavy so damage wasn't always = stock, and then I'd get more chances to run around and be janky/unpredictable. I dunno how Peach is supposed to deal with Falcon constantly moving around vertically while also handling the threat of an approach.

I didn't combo into death much, but a lot of hits afforded the opportunity for grab, which allowed for some amount of uairs into edgeguarding. Grinding out peach's recovery for damage with uair/bair is fairly effective.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Sheik has the bonus of being able to walk to where they land ... Falcon has to dash if they full DI away, which makes it kinda awkward sometimes to position yourself to be where they land to react to tech in place

Plus Sheik has an actual jab reset so ... <_<

Foxtrot forward. React. Punish.

 

[Divinokage]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gQWIPF4-y24&feature=related You have to watch this one, way too funny..

 

[0Room]

Actually Winston
That's exactly what PP said

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=13436033&postcount=11819

Kevin has some interesting ideas on Falcon
And I haven't really gotten around to applying them but you guys should
and see what happens

 

[Aussierob123]

I agree strongbad lol I've failed twice to peach in tourney recently cuz I feel like I'm in control and then 1 hit and the power has flipped. Especially when recovering.

 

[Winston]

Peach sucks at edgeguarding Falcon compared to every other character people play (and many that people don't).

I mean yea Falcon's recovery still blows so you'll die a lot of the time, but seriously Peach's ko moves have a high launch angle, aren't particularly strong, and she can't jump so she can't go up and out to intercept your high up Bs. She also isn't awesome at hitting Falcon when he's coming up from below, her best non-techable option being dair -> stuff (which you can SDI and hope they up).

 

[Deleted member]

I still think falcons recovery is pretty good loL, only stage where its truly bad is final destination

 

[Walt]

-Techchasing Falcon with grabs is easy
-Tech in place feels the hardest because people still try to JC grab it but should just standing grab to save frames to compensate for the rolling frames not being there
-Fox and Falcon have the same frame data for teching but Fox has a smaller hurtbox so he is slightly harder to do it on by some number of pixels
-I can't TC grab Falco on reaction. He rolls to far for me personally. I have to try to read the tech, or react and wait/bait out a shine/utilt/roll/shotdodge
-Techchase grabbing with Sheik is easier for me because her grab range is longer and boostgrabbing is soooooo ****.
-I wish Falcon's boostgrab was useful at all
-in Genesis 2 pools DoH was edgeguarding me for like 30 straight seconds and just yelled "JUST DIE ALREADY." I thought it was really funny.
-I forgot something else I wanted to say

 

[Wenbobular]

"Pretty good" seems like a bit of an exaggeration haha
"Not the stone worst" seems like a slightly better description

 

[tarheeljks]

falcon can do some good fakeouts on platform stages though

 

[ryankam10]

Sorry to butt in but I'd like to draw attention to the following Falcon done by Mew2king: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW8grq3sYDE&feature=related

I know you probably all saw this but I just go O_O whenever i rewatch it. it's just so good. The combo Mew2king does on his last stock is just so beastly

 

[Wenbobular]

Umm...so what exactly was super amazing about that video <_<

 

[Palpi]

There was a surplus of standard -> sub par in that video

 

[ryankam10]

M2ks 0 to death was amazing lol. its just real good to watch cus sometimes you forget that falcon can chain throw falcon, DI dependant

 

[0Room]

Lmao
We literally were JUST talking about that a few pages back

Actually this same page if you have 40 ppp

 

[Roneblaster]

You **** need to quit arguing about dumb **** and talk about how gay falco and fox are.

 

[Walt]

fox and falco are so gay

 

[DuckPimp]

yay blenerade is back

 

[Juggleguy]

Blenerade is overrated.