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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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Big Red

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Sorry, I haven't really read much of the last couple hundred pages:laugh:. I read the virst 20 or so, and I guess I will give my input on this subject. Certainly I shouldn't be considered an expert since I am very new to the competetive smash scene, but I have read thousands of these debates and I feel that I have a decent grasp of what is going on, especially since I have identified with both sides at various points in time. I'll just point out some flaws that I have seen in arguments, some have been in this thread, and some have been in others, but I will just say it all here.

OK....
First, I here a lot of people saying that there is still time for people to develope new techniques and it has only been a few weeks/months. Not that I know very much about finding techs since I spend hours in training around, but have yet to find anything new, but that is besides the point. It will not matter. Even if we were able to find something like wavedashing or if it was still in brawl, I don't think that it would do much for the game. As has been discussed, the problem with brawl boils down to the lack of hitstun. The whole push-pull and punishment is very important, and you can go back to page 2 or 3 to find it. All that wavedashing does is help approaching, and evasion. If we could wavedash we would be able to approach safer and faster, but that would not change the outcome. There would still be an exchange of one or so hits and then we would be back to sqaure one. It would also help with evasion which would only make matches even more dull.

Second, I here a lot of people say that they don't like combos and advance techs because they create a large gap between the competetive and casual scene, but I don't believe that at all, and this comes from personal experience. I played 64 and melee for what is it like 10 years? never knowing about l-canceling, or wavedashing, and I still had a perfectly fun time. Sakurai claims that competition doesn't matter and that people should have fun, but I don't think that justifies him putting in tripping. I don't care how casual of a player you are, you will not like being tripped or even others tripping. It isn't fun to play a game, even at a completely casual level to know that you won a game just because your oponent tripped.

I may reply with more later, but first I have to eat. Sorry if my opinions are completely misguided and wrong, but it is just what I have gathered from my countless hours of lurking.
 

JackieRabbit5

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define what u mean when u say "better players" should win

that sounds kinda wrong...
like ur saying some people are just better than others and its as simple as that, kinda like prejudice
 

KirbyKaze

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^ some people are just better than others. often this is caused by one player possessing a higher understanding of the game's mechanics, experience, and ability to form and/or adapt to strategies used.
 

Skler

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Your avatar is incredible. I think this deserves mentioning because it's true.

Players weren't created equal, there are better and worse players. In Melee the better players will win almost 100% of the time (assuming the skill gap is decent/noticeable), in brawl it goes down to maybe 80% or so because of things like tripping, how easy it is to camp and the fact that throwing out your best move over and over again is hardly punishable even if you miss most of the time (see: snake, metaknight)
 

The Halloween Captain

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Your avatar is incredible. I think this deserves mentioning because it's true.

Players weren't created equal, there are better and worse players. In Melee the better players will win almost 100% of the time (assuming the skill gap is decent/noticeable), in brawl it goes down to maybe 80% or so because of things like tripping, how easy it is to camp and the fact that throwing out your best move over and over again is hardly punishable even if you miss most of the time (see: snake, metaknight)
I agree its easy to camp. However, you would think Pit would be considered better if Brawl was all about camping. I also agree about spamming moves, but wouldn't the effectiveness of spamming moves wane as players adjust to the spam and learn how to punish? Melee also had moves that could be spammed (compare Marth's F-smash to Snake's F-tilt), but as time wore on and the players got better, anti-spam tactics almost became habitual, lessening the effectiveness of being spammy.
 

KirbyKaze

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marth's f-smash is so punishable lol.

and against anyone good spammng f-smash with marth is quite literally suicide. between rest, grab combos, sheik, fox, and a whole lot of other crap if you spam f-smash with marth you will be punished so hard for it lol.

in brawl if you spam f-tilt and get punished you take 13-20%.
 

Reaver197

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I think the slower speed of which you can move/jump, less manuevering options and the general quickness at which moves can be executed and be recovered from, makes it difficult to be truly effective at punishing moves, especially if the person spamming is smart and knows what can and cannot be done against him/her while performing that particular move. Also, the lack of hitstun and other factors also often won't enable an effective enough punishment.
 

The Halloween Captain

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I think the slower speed of which you can move/jump, less manuevering options and the general quickness at which moves can be executed and be recovered from, makes it difficult to be truly effective at punishing moves, especially if the person spamming is smart and knows what can and cannot be done against him/her while performing that particular move. Also, the lack of hitstun and other factors also often won't enable an effective enough punishment.
While that is true, I still think that there will be a lot of different anti-spam tactics that will bring the highest tier down a bit, reguardless of their knowledge about the move. One example - Did you know Lucario's F-air penetrates Metaknight's tornado? That makes the tornado a slightly less desireable move to use against an airborn Lucario. While not as punishing as melee, people will put in a lot of effort to overcome spam attacks because of the unpopularity surrounding them, especially those of MK and Snake, who are currently the best Brawl characters.

Although I doubt anyone will overcome Pit spamming. Pit isn't even viable without the spam.
 

PolMex23

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I can't wait until this happens and 80% of the Brawl population starts crying after they realize that their scrubby Snakes/Metaknights can't beat anyone anymore. Then Brawl will reach true competitiveness and I will laugh at the disbelievers.
True, it will happen. But I forgot who said it, probably when this occurs, the Brawl scene will be long gone. Just it bores me now, an I can't experience the same satisfaction Melee gives when you pull off a kill combo. Every good fighting game mostly requires the ability to somehow string along attacks. Funny thing is, you don't really need to combo in most fighting games to win. All you have to do is to be able to counter. Sak took away an element necessary for a fighting game. In a sense, he did what he wanted. Made it a family "casual" game, all knowing that Melee blew up into the competitive scene.
"Hitstun" , an the ability to punish. Brawl lacks, obviously. Really aggravating sometimes. Made C-Falc useless....
This is probably the most sense-making post I've seen.
xD xD xD xD =) =)

Except substituting High Tiers for the Top Tiers is more of a baby step than you make it sound like. (I.E. Toon Link, GaW)

But I know what you mean.
xD xD xD xD =) =)
I know, but I hate Chun-Li. ^_^

But mostly I hate Justin Wong.
same here. Hes alright in person...just the fact who uses that **** annoying screaming ***** xD xD.

GOD ****ing ****it. Stop ****ing posting that ****ing Daigo vid that everyone and their ****ing grandma has already ****ing seen. ****.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xlj3_tzXXlo - Much better.
Your a mistake sir, Pathetic.
Despite popular belief there is something called Natural talent.
There is an if anyone doesn't know that than...****, open your eyes. So many examples for that one.

Dude Competitive Guilty Gear is where it's at >_>

That **** looks mad fun.

I say we all play GG and say **** brawl.
GG is absolutely amazing xD.

Im going to try to bring back the melee scene in Florida.....after I shake off the year of rust xD. Been a while since I went to a large melee tourney....06 xD.
Its there, so many Brawl foos around though.
 

Reaver197

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While that is true, I still think that there will be a lot of different anti-spam tactics that will bring the highest tier down a bit. One example - Did you know Lucario's F-air penetrates Metaknight's tornado?
Then a smart Metaknight would know that, and would avoid that, maybe implementing some other move or strategy, or maybe an entirely different character altogether.

But I think the biggest issue with spamming is just that in Brawl, there is just not a big enough potential punishment to deter people from resorting to such techniques.
 

Dark Sonic

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Im going to try to bring back the melee scene in Florida.....after I shake off the year of rust xD. Been a while since I went to a large melee tourney....06 xD.
Its there, so many Brawl foos around though.
Actually, I think it's already comming back on it's own. The 7/26 Gigabits tourney is going to be melee instead of brawl, and guess who's comming (or at least said he is),

MEW2KING!!! M2K vs Shiz is going to be freakin' epic.
 

EC_Joey

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I'm going to pick up Brawl Falco and just spam lasers. I can't wait to laserlock someone for the first time.
 

The Halloween Captain

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I'm going to pick up Brawl Falco and just spam lasers. I can't wait to laserlock someone for the first time.
Doesn't laserlock assume the opponent does nothing but DI from a throw? It seems unlikely to be a viable tactic even against people who have never heard of it, as situations where it becomes practical in an actual match are rare. Almost never will an opponent not do any of the many things which will screw up a laser-lock after being thrown.

Also, are you aware of the jab-lock? Its the same as a laser-lock and equally impractical, but done with a jab instead.
 

Zankoku

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I've successfully laser-locked someone twice. It relies on extremely poor reflexes on the opponent's part, most of the time, but once it's set up there's nothing you can do about it until you either fall off the stage or the Falco stops firing lasers.
 

EC_Joey

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Doesn't laserlock assume the opponent does nothing but DI from a throw? It seems unlikely to be a viable tactic even against people who have never heard of it, as situations where it becomes practical in an actual match are rare. Almost never will an opponent not do any of the many things which will screw up a laser-lock after being thrown.

Also, are you aware of the jab-lock? Its the same as a laser-lock and equally impractical, but done with a jab instead.
You don't know what a laserlock is. Go look it up.
 

Corigames

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You were both attempting cheap shots with the whole "go look it up" think tacked on the end of the posts. In my head, I heard the announce from SF go GAY and then on his post go COUNTER GAY!!!

I loled and thought I should share it with everyone.
 

RDK

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I thought he was responding for Halloween Captain when Variola asked him if he knew what a laserlock is.

"You don't know what a laserlock is."

"Gay."

'Cuz it is. >_>
 

RDK

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A good 2/3 of the roster can do a jab infinite on every character.

What are the requirements? You have to have them up against the wall. Therefore it's negligible, since stages with walls are tourney-banned.

P.S: Nobody with even an idiot's level of technical skill would even get caught in a jab lock. Solution? Air-dodge into the ground, or tech when you hit the floor.
 

The Halloween Captain

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A good 2/3 of the roster can do a jab infinite on every character.

What are the requirements? You have to have them up against the wall. Therefore it's negligible, since stages with walls are tourney-banned.
It was still pretty impressive the way that guy did it 20 times in a row on FD.
 

Zankoku

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There's nothing impressive about doing a jablock or laserlock. The only thing impressive is playing an opponent bad enough to get set up into one.
 

CobraWolf

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In virtually every competitive game I've played (Starcraft, Warcraft III, Melee) I've found that speeding up one's thinking process improves one's gameplay.

However, in Brawl I think I've found that slowing down my thinking process actually helps my gameplay, which upsets me because this would prove the notion that Brawl goes against skill, which just makes me sad.

Also, back in melee, whenever I had a tough matchup, I'd really really focus on my game in order to bring myself up to the level of play of my opponent.

However, lately, when I've played against my friend, whoever has the better matchup almost always wins.

I always feel like the matchs are predetermined and no matter how hard I exert myself in a difficult matchup, the game has already dealt me my cards.
 

#HBC | Red Ryu

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Your avatar is incredible. I think this deserves mentioning because it's true.

Players weren't created equal, there are better and worse players. In Melee the better players will win almost 100% of the time (assuming the skill gap is decent/noticeable), in brawl it goes down to maybe 80% or so because of things like tripping, how easy it is to camp and the fact that throwing out your best move over and over again is hardly punishable even if you miss most of the time (see: snake, metaknight)
I wish people would stop thinking your always going to trip into an Ike Fsmash or even that Tripping will always alter the game immensely if you do it once in a match.
 

Corigames

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I wish people would stop thinking your always going to trip into an Ike Fsmash or even that Tripping will always alter the game immensely if you do it once in a match.
Well, it's hard to tell me to stop thinking that when:

*ahem*

I died in my first tournament match EVER from an Ike forward smash, off the side, and only at %55!!!!!!


You can't tell me to not think that when my thoughts are based off of my memories.
 

Big Red

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Well, it's hard to tell me to stop thinking that when:

*ahem*

I died in my first tournament match EVER from am Ike forward smash, off the side, and only at %55!!!!!!


You can't tell me to not think that when my thoughts are based off of my memories.
Perosal eckspearins meens nudding!!1!11!1!!!

No, but that is why we said better plays will win like 80% of the time. Of course everytime you trip you won't get massively punished, but it will happen, and that just sucks.
 
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