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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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Zankoku

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I'd just like to mention that Fox and Falco were in a tier by themselves in Melee, but they were far from unbeatable. Snake and Meta Knight being in a tier by themselves would just mean they're the best, not necessarily broken. But what do I know, I haven't been to a tournament in.... a month now. :V
 
Fletch

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SamuraiPanda said:
I've said this time and time before, and even in the post above. Snake and MK are amazing, and will probably be in the top 5 characters for the rest of the game's lifespan. But they are NOT in a tier by themselves. They will get worse over time (i.e. learn MK's up-B timing to avoid edgeguards; learn that shielding Snake's Ftilt leaves him open, etc.) but probably won't get substantially worse. Also, they already have clear and demonstrated hard counters to them. To name a couple, ROB owns Snake, and MK is fodder for Snake's up-tilt.

Also, do you wonder why the official tier list hasn't been made yet? Because the SBR understands that the game needs time to evolve. There is no question about that.
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I don't see how you can guarantee they will get worse over time; to me, they just as easily could become more dominant (i.e. some ridiculous new tech is discovered that allows Snake to spam his projectiles more often or with less lag). Simply saying they will get worse has no merit when the other scenario is about equally as likely.
 
SamuraiPanda

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fletch71011 said:
I don't see how you can guarantee they will get worse over time; to me, they just as easily could become more dominant (i.e. some ridiculous new tech is discovered that allows Snake to spam his projectiles more often or with less lag). Simply saying they will get worse has no merit when the other scenario is about equally as likely.
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No merit? Here's an example for you: Most people complain that Snake's F-tilt always hits them. But if you pretend like Snake had a sword (thus the range), would you still approach him as close as you do? Honestly, once people get used to the range of the F-tilt, they'll stop stupidly running in front of it.

I'm explaining inevitabilities and things that are going to happen in the future. Things I've seen happen time and time again in so many different games. You're saying its just as likely that a new tech, or more likely a new glitch, could be discovered that favors people like Snake (as opposed to favoring lower tiers or something) further unbalancing the game. Hm... which has a better chance of happening... learning how to play against certain characters or discovering an incredibly useful glitch that widens the gap between tiers further... I think I'll go with learning being more likely.
 
U

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No offense SP but isn't saying people will learn to avoid Snakes Tilt range the same as saying Marth is easily beatable in Melee by simply avoiding his Tipper? I mean, yeah, its common sense to NOT run into it but its not like its any easier to avoid. You have to remember, its likely that people will learn to not run into it, but Snake players will also learn better ways of abusing it.
 
Aesir

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Generally speaking dominating characters early on while are good become more easy to deal with.

Examples in melee.

Fox, Sheik Marth

While good over the years as their popularity grew people became more aware of their weaknesses.

Ask anyone how to beat either of these characters and they'll probably give you a very detailed idea on what to do.

Ask that same person how to beat link and they'll probably be like. "grab and do stuff"
 
L

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loool, yeah, with other chars like link it's different, just dodge the spam and combo it to death, they're mainly easy to edgeguard though...
 
thumbswayup

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Snake and Metaknight are in a league of their own. They just **** everything in their paths. Maybe it's because you don't live in the MD/VA area, where every other person uses MK. I've played the best Snakes and MKs in my area, and while they aren't truly unbeatable, they have an overwhelming advantage against everyone else. I can't tell you the number of times I've been wiped out by MK's up b at low percents, or how many times I've been tilted by Snake when I was POSITIVE he couldn't hit me. The game just isn't fun when people abuse these two, especially MK. I mean, I've beaten great Snakes before. It just takes the life out of me to do it. I have to dodge and avoid like nothing else and it's not fun. **** Mk though, I can't beat him.
 
EC_Joey

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Eventually people may come up with counters to Snake's tilts and MK's up B, but I'm not holding my breath.
 
Proverbs

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As SamuraiPanda said, you'll just learn to see it coming. It's just like Zelda's hyphen smashing. She used to do it all the time and now any decent player knows that it has multiple hits and doesn't release their shield early and also knows how to DI out of the multi hits. Just keep yourself out of harm's way and time things correctly.

Spacing is key, use it.
 
The Halloween Captain

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Proverbs is right. The main problem with Snake tilts is his hit boxes are unusually bigger than the attack appears it ought to be, where as with MK, its all about spacing and predicting when he'll use a b attack. Although, MK is almost are irritating as Pit to fight, whereas Snake usually at least keeps the battle interesting.

Spacing is key against metaknight's short disjointed hit boxes and Snake's long limbs.
 
EC_Joey

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The Halloween Captain said:
Proverbs is right. The main problem with Snake tilts is his hit boxes are unusually bigger than the attack appears it ought to be, where as with MK, its all about spacing and predicting when he'll use a b attack. Although, MK is almost are irritating as Pit to fight, whereas Snake usually at least keeps the battle interesting.

Spacing is key against metaknight's short disjointed hit boxes and Snake's long limbs.
Click to expand...
No references to Melee. Good, you may proceed.
 
-Linko-

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The Halloween Captain said:
Proverbs is right. The main problem with Snake tilts is his hit boxes are unusually bigger than the attack appears it ought to be, where as with MK, its all about spacing and predicting when he'll use a b attack. Although, MK is almost are irritating as Pit to fight, whereas Snake usually at least keeps the battle interesting.

Spacing is key against metaknight's short disjointed hit boxes and Snake's long limbs.
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Yup. That is exactly the same about Melee's marth, his hitboxes were just crazy.

http://es.youtube.com/watch?v=F3VQyta-cfc&NR=1
And, like this youtube shows, Marth was untouchable by that poor link, who lost only because he had choosen the worst character.

Wait... Maybe Brawl's Snake is beatable...?
 
Aesir

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Linko_Ridley said:
Sarcasm, anyone?
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Sarcasm is incorrect in this situation as I'm 100% correct. M2k is the only marth main who consistently places in the top 5 of tournaments. You might see Cactuar or Cort even though I wouldn't consider cort a person who uses a main just uses the character he feels like at the time I guess.
 
-Linko-

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Aesir said:
Sarcasm is incorrect in this situation as I'm 100% correct. M2k is the only marth main who consistently places in the top 5 of tournaments. You might see Cactuar or Cort even though I wouldn't consider cort a person who uses a main just uses the character he feels like at the time I guess.
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That is the point of my sarcasm: Marth is not unbeatable as of today; but go back to 2003-2005 (Ken's dominance time) and tell everybody that Marth is beatable.
 
Aesir

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Linko_Ridley said:
That is the point of my sarcasm: Marth is not unbeatable as of today; but go back to 2003-2005 (Ken's dominance time) and tell everybody that Marth is beatable.
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Ken was the only one doing it, there wasn't a large influx of marth mains who were winning tourneys. Which brings it back to my point, that marth is a very beatable character. Who ever says otherwise is just johning lol.
 
-Linko-

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Aesir said:
Ken was the only one doing it, there wasn't a large influx of marth mains who were winning tourneys. Which brings it back to my point, that marth is a very beatable character. Who ever says otherwise is just johning lol.
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OK, but there was a large influx of Sheik and Fox mains who were winning tourneys. Which brings back to my point, at first some characters seem unbeatable.

Whoever says otherwise is just johning lol.
 
Clai

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M2K invades my nightmares. I can't even dream of having a Marth as good as his. Every time I play Melee, I try and pick up Marth and then realize how horribly horrific I am with him. So I pick up Captain Falcon, who at least I can get pretty decent with and has the option of telling other people to show him their moves.

I've beaten bad Marths at tournaments.
I get ***** by good Marths at tournaments.
I've beaten Snakes at friendlies.
I have yet to play an awesome Snake.

Something tells me that an awesome Snake will be more beatable than playing against Marth in Melee. If only there was ever a possibility to beat a Snake in Brawl with Ganondorf...
 
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