Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Solidix Snike]

Jack, I think they were/are taking "not infallible" as "not dominating".

 

[The Halloween Captain]

This whole thing illustrates a point VERY well. I think everyone is sick and tired of Brawl supporters pulling the time card. I don't think it's going to have any sort of huge impact, and this is why.

Physics exploits and glitches are two different things. Z- and L-canceling were both intentionally put in, presumably so that aerials weren't so easily punishable. Wavedashing is exploiting the physics engine by doing a very simple thing in an unconventional way. Physics exploits similar to wavedashing and l-canceling in Brawl were what everyone was looking for since February. No one's found anything, but it appears that some people are finding glitches.

The glitch I'm really referring to is the infinite second jump. It is extremely hard to do and apparently not very practical. More things like this will be found as time goes on, but it being practical and useful is highly unlikely.

Snake users (although it seems impractical) have already begun to master their "Wall-of-Manliness."

Also, is it possible that the level a character is played at has a lot to do with the organization of its fans? The Snake boards are full of dedicated players obsessed with very detailed, character-specific techniques, which seems to have granted them an edge over a lot of other characters when it comes to Smash knowledge who use more general techniques on their boards, such as those who main, say, Lucario.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack, I think they were/are taking "not infallible" as "not dominating".

Yeah, that's what I figured, too. Most of the problems I have on SWF are from misunderstandings... d*mn internets.

 

[rathy Aro]

I hate when people say this game has more mind games.

How? no ones ever addressed this, option is what makes mind games possible not tech skill.

So please enlighten me how does this game have more mind games.

At no point did I say that Brawl had more mindgames. I was just saying people could focus more on that element of the game.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Brawl does appear to have many ATs though, if you want options. Still, nothing seems to be useful at the moment, or at least, nothing appears to give anyone more practical options yet.

Its actually somewhat odd, but Brawl seems to have more ATs and glitches than melee, from what I can gather from the tactical boards. Or at least, I've heard of more Brawl ATs than melee ATs, though many are character limited in Brawl. As of now, I've heard of SJR, ISJR, Hill dashing, dash-sliding, and one that doesn't have a name yet which is done by walking (not running) back and forth quickly. I'm sure there are several others, some character specific and others general, in addition to these.

 

[Zankoku]

That's because of two reasons.

1. Like we said, many many times, there's a lot of us now. Things are going to be found faster.
2. Everyone's posting everything ever and calling it a technique. Some guy posted up his technique of spot-dodging from a dash.

 

[Corigames]

Yeah, there should be a comilation of relevant AT's, not just any crap out there.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Well put, Ankoku. I'll repeat them since I editted since your post. "As of now, I've heard of SJR, ISJR, Hill dashing, dash-sliding, and one that doesn't have a name yet which is done by walking (not running) back and forth quickly. I'm sure there are several others, some character specific and others general, in addition to these." Dash-sliding is as in the mortar slide for snake, sliding up-smash for others.. Non of these, however, seem to be a false trick like spot-dodging from a dash, but not all of them are completely useful, and many of them only work for certain characters. Perhaps you are right. However, there are a lot of melee fans who believe Brawl has more problems than melee; I'm not sure how they will respond to these.

By the way, if you are not sure what these techniques are, please look them up before commenting on Brawl ATs. Thank you!

EDIT: I would like to add something called Wave Pivot and the Dash Pivot Cancel (very similar) to this list.

 

[Zankoku]

SJR and ISJR have incredibly tight timings and as of yet have not found practical applications. May or may not happen.

Hill dashing is interesting, but situational.

Boost up-smash is also interesting, and provides good movement options for several characters.

 

[ShaolinAce]

Yeah they're pretty much god tier.

It's not hard to undrestand. Even without online and tournies. They **** in casual play aswell. In the right hands.

 

[Jack Kieser]

SJR and ISJR have incredibly tight timings and as of yet have not found practical applications. May or may not happen.

Hill dashing is interesting, but situational.

Boost up-smash is also interesting, and provides good movement options for several characters.

Platform-assisted 'Wall-of-Manliness', anyone? That's useful as hell. For Lucario (one of my mains), ISJR is a godsend, as most of his best combo moves are aerials. I'm learning it for that reason alone.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Why is it we immediately called the ISRJ maneuvers the "Wall of Manliness" anyway? Awesome name but not very descriptive, and applies as much to Lucario as Snake.

By the way, if your interested in Lucario tricks Jack, you might want to check out the "dash pivot cancel."

 

[WiiWouldLikeTwoPlay]

That's nice, but you missed the part where everyone explained that what that person said has been repeated almost verbatim at least 1000x here.

Fine, forgive me for not knowing that. I didn't really feel like reading 300 pages to find that out. (I don't mean to be sarcastic; I never wanted to argue in the first place. All I wanted was to point out was that people have opinions; and they shouldn't be ignored or insulted if their opinions our different. But since its a lot easier to misunderstand typed messages, everyone attacked me. I only tried to talk to Pink Reaper because he was arguing with a good friend of mine.)

 

[Chexr]

I like both games.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Why is it we immediately called the ISRJ maneuvers the "Wall of Manliness" anyway? Awesome name but not very descriptive, and applies as much to Lucario as Snake.

By the way, if your interested in Lucario tricks Jack, you might want to check out the "dash pivot cancel."

I was under the impression that 'The Wall of Manliness' was the name for Snake's ISJR, because he's Snake and his bair is a 'manly Superman Dive'.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Fine, forgive me for not knowing that. I didn't really feel like reading 300 pages to find that out. (I don't mean to be sarcastic; I never wanted to argue in the first place. All I wanted was to point out was that people have opinions; and they shouldn't be ignored or insulted if their opinions our different. But since its a lot easier to misunderstand typed messages, everyone attacked me. I only tried to talk to Pink Reaper because he was arguing with a good friend of mine.)

It's alright. This thread is pretty much *the* argument thread on these boards.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I was under the impression that 'The Wall of Manliness' was the name for Snake's ISJR, because he's Snake and his bair is a 'manly Superman Dive'.

I was under that impression as well, but in this perticular thread, it was used first in refernece to Lucario.

Seriously though, a Superman Dive really isn't that manly a thing to do. But that is a trivial thing to argue about. Do you know who coined "Wall of Manliness" in the first place?

 

[LOL_Master]

i am manly

 

[Kop]

I just don't see how inescapable combos and lame throw combos (u-throw, u-air ZOMG PRO) take more skill than Brawl's system. I also don't see any trend at all in matches I've watched where the lesser player lucks into wins. In fact, with it harder to suicide I'd actually say there less random outcomes. I can see how players who play fox and liked to jump around canceling all lag and unbalancing the game to the point that only a handful of the roster could even hope to compete might feel that brawl offers less by way of glitches to exploit for unfair advantage. But performing six button presses in a second isn't what makes a game fun, or competitive for that matter.

The things people complain about seem just flat out wrong. Throws are useless just because they don't give free combos? Really? It's useless to throw someone off the edge and punish the return now? And some characters can combo out of throws , for example Dedede, and Toon Link.

Does it really take more skill to land a five hit combo on a player who has no hope of fighting back than someone who can respond, or dodge, or do all sort of things other then play the balloon in a game of keep up. Why? Seriously, answer this question. Please. For the love of god answer it. Why?

On top of that the stages are better, the roster is more varied and balanced, COMBOS DO EXIST. Watch some youtube clips back to back and see how big the difference REALLY is in comboing, and chaining together attacks. It's not that different in terms of how control shifts at all. The graphics are better, it supports wifi, and last but certainly not least, it's not half a decade old and played to ****ing death. it's fresh.

So here, I've offered you all sorts of points outside of "stop hating" so respond.

I'm sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong. Inescapable combos? DI.
The stages are better? That would be opinion.
Balanced roster? Do you really play Brawl?
Graphics do not define gameplay. Wifi for Brawl is **** and an old game doesn't mean a bad game.
Heard of Starcraft?
Counter-strike?
SFII?
And yes, Brawl must have a "balanced" roster, considering that snake and metaknight are god tier.

Brawl does have AT's, at least in my definition of them. They're just character-specific, and this, I believe, will be a great boon to the metagame. If you want me to explain my definition, sorry, but I'm no wordsmith.

And melee doesn't have character-specific AT's?

 

[EC_Joey]

I was under that impression as well, but in this perticular thread, it was used first in refernece to Lucario.

Seriously though, a Superman Dive really isn't that manly a thing to do. But that is a trivial thing to argue about. Do you know who coined "Wall of Manliness" in the first place?

First time it was used as a reference (as far as I know) was by Jack Kieser a while back in this thread. I was under the impression it was being applied to Ike, because many consider him to be the manliest character in the game. I don't think Jack Kieser mentioned any specific character when he used the term "Wall of Manliness".

By the way, if you are not sure what these techniques are, please look them up before commenting on Brawl ATs. Thank you!

Take your own advice and please refrain from talking about Melee. Thanks.

i am manly

But do you fight for your friends?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

And melee doesn't have character-specific AT's?

Psh no everyone can doubleshine, DJC, confusion through the floor on battlefield.

DUH!!!

 

[RDK]

The point about ISJR'ing is moot. As it's been said many times before, we probably will find tons of character-specific AT's all throughout Brawl's development, but if they're incredibly situational and not pragmatic, just like the onese we've found so far, then there's really no point.

And no, the ISJR is not comparable to the Waveshine at all.

P.S.: Anyone notice how the Smash series has an odd depth progression? In terms of competitive depth, it goes Melee > 64 > Brawl. At least SSB64 had L-cancelling and 0-death combos.

 

[Fletch]

P.S.: Anyone notice how the Smash series has an odd depth progression? In terms of competitive depth, it goes Melee > 64 > Brawl. At least SSB64 had L-cancelling and 0-death combos.

More like Melee > 64 >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Brawl

 

[LOL_Master]

looools, nice addition of the many >'s

 

[Pikaville]

I had even before brawl came out decided it was better than melee.But I wanted it to be better so much that it blinded me to the fact that it is worse.I just got so into it that I didn't even really think about whether it was actually better than melee.

Let me tell you something.When I first played brawl I said one thing to myself."I am going to completely ignore melee for a while and get good at brawl"and I did.For about 3 months I've played brawl studied and gotten pretty good at some of the AT's................Until last week........I played melee for the 1st time since brawl came out.

It was unbelieveable!The pace of it,fastfalling,wavedashing,L-canceling the works!It felt so much smoother,sleeker and faster to play than brawl.(It felt really good!)Everything about it just ......works better.

I gave brawl VERY fair chance and it just doesn't compare to the nearly heartstopping epic match after epic match that I get from melee.With melee I could play till the cows came home but with brawl I find myself bored after 10 matches.

I havent touched brawl since then.

 

[EC_Joey]

I had even before brawl came out decided it was better than melee.But I wanted it to be better so much that it blinded me to the fact that it is worse.I just got so into it that I didn't even really think about whether it was actually better than melee.

Let me tell you something.When I first played brawl I said one thing to myself."I am going to completely ignore melee for a while and get good at brawl"and I did.For about 3 months I've played brawl studied and gotten pretty good at some of the AT's................Until last week........I played melee for the 1st time since brawl came out.

It was unbelieveable!The pace of it,fastfalling,wavedashing,L-canceling the works!It felt so much smoother,sleeker and faster to play than brawl.(It felt really good!)Everything about it just ......works better.

I gave brawl VERY fair chance and it just doesn't compare to the nearly heartstopping epic match after epic match that I get from melee.With melee I could play till the cows came home but with brawl I find myself bored after 10 matches.

I havent touched brawl since then.

Same here.

 

[MrMoney]

love the samuel l jackson thing

 

[The Halloween Captain]

It seems like anyone who has a deep knowledge of melee's metagame and enjoys thinking and comboing at melee speed prefers melee over Brawl. Also, I'd imagine the better melee ledgeguarders who didn't mind needing to face the ledge prefer melee, as well as people who are proficient in the melee tactics which made melee as fast as its metagame has become.

Heck if I wasn't a melee camper, I'd probably prefer melee over Brawl. Do people camp because they enjoy camping or something, or is it just strategic?

 

[Zankoku]

People camp because it lets them win against bad players, and everyone likes to win.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

People also camp to counter campers. I was always surprised, though, how few campers seem to have gotton to the point I had. I guess they choose to learn ATs because people they knew who knew of these beat them.

I'm a little nostalgic for the old "out pika-camp non-spacies" days in melee. The only reason I eveloved my game a little out into marth c-sticking was to counter the spacies and because he was a good edge-guarder.

I will say this for both games - my friend tired of both after a while. With melee we returned to it only to practice basics for Brawl, and he nearly stopped playing entirely because Marth got nerfed distance-wise.

I camp pit when he camps R.O.B., because it works better than attacking him directly. We've always played the game that way, so for us, Brawl was an improvement.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

snake and metaknight are god tier.

Anybody that honestly believe Snake and Metaknight are in a tier of their own needs to actually try playing the game.

 

[Proverbs]

I wish to speak on the subject of Melee vs. Brawl. I don't have any credentials, I'm not ridiculously well known here, and I don't have 2000+ posts, but maybe that's why I have the right to speak on this. I suppose I'd like to say this because I am the average player (although I'm moving closer to doing tournaments as of recently).

Let me begin by saying what I think we have already established:

Melee is more competitive than Brawl. I would even go so far as to say that it is more fun than Brawl (Although that is more subjective).

The thing is about Melee is that from 64 to Melee, in only two years, they added a ridiculous amount to the game. They added airdodging, downthrows, upthrows, spotdodging (I think downsmashes too), forward special, and lightshielding. That's just off the top of my head, and only the things that are immediately recognized from playing the game (Basically I'm excluding wavedashing and the like here).

What did they add from Melee to Brawl (which, by the way, was a span of seven years)? About nothing. They changed airdodges and they added stooljumping. That's all I can think of--and tripping, let's not forget that. Otherwise they just let you grab the ledge from both sides and there isn't much else.

But they took out lightshielding, l-cancelling, non-fastfalled d-airs with the c-stick, and I think the ability to let go of the edge with no DI by hitting the c-stick away from the stage. This I don't even understand. They actually removed some things from Brawl that were in Melee. Even on the simplest level, there are less options in Brawl. That's not me talking about wavedashing or whatever. I'm talking about with just the very basics, the game has less options.

And to go deeper? No combos (almost), no wavedashing (I usually am really annoyed when people mention this one, but I have to admit it. After playing Melee again I do realize that wavedashing allows for just even more options), no DECENT chainthrows (realize that basically all of them are absolutely ridiculous. Need I mention the release grab?), and no directional airdodging. While regular airdodging seems like it would make the game more realistic or whatever, it just detracts from the game. Directional airdodging made your approaches less predictable and added much easier wavelanding than the wavelanding in Brawl (which is basically just doing non-swordplant aerials on slopes. Big whoop). And approach strategies in general are lacking in Brawl (in quantity, quality, and depth).

Melee demands more of the mind. That's not my evaluation at the end of this--I actually feel that my brain is more involved and that I have to THINK more when playing Melee. I like to think, how about you? I don't want to play some mindless game. If it's not challenging mentally, why play? Let me even rephrase that. If it's not stimulating mentally, why play? They're about the same thing, really.

So we've heard the technical side. What about the 'casual players' ? I myself mostly only play among my friends, and let me say: I have a lot more fun with Melee. Because it gets me more involved I flip out more when I lose in ridiculous ways (which is part of the fun) and feel more satisfied when I win (Or when I, even, pull of combos ;p ). The game is just...better. I can still have fun with Brawl every now and then, and might even do a Brawl tournament or two for fun. But, I do have to say, Brawl leaves me dissatisfied and bored.

So, now I wonder, what are we still debating? I don't think there is anyone who can say and prove that Brawl is or ever will be more deep or more competitive than Melee. It's pretty easy to see the game is more fun than Brawl. As I said earlier, I still play the game, but I enjoy it far less than Melee (and this is coming from a guy who not only played solely Brawl for the first few months after it came out, but also didn't even want to go back to Melee even if it were more competitive).

I have more to say, but I think it doesn't even need to be added. Melee is an amazing game, and Brawl is a good game in its own right.

However, Brawl does not have the competitive level, the longevity, or the allure that Melee has retained for the full seven years it has been out.


And with that, I'm out.

 

[Fletch]

I wish to speak on the subject of Melee vs. Brawl. I don't have any credentials, I'm not ridiculously well known here, and I don't have 2000+ posts, but maybe that's why I have the right to speak on this. I suppose I'd like to say this because I am the average player (although I'm moving closer to doing tournaments as of recently).

Let me begin by saying what I think we have already established:

Melee is more competitive than Brawl. I would even go so far as to say that it is more fun than Brawl (Although that is more subjective).

The thing is about Melee is that from 64 to Melee, in only two years, they added a ridiculous amount to the game. They added airdodging, downthrows, upthrows, spotdodging (I think downsmashes too), forward special, and lightshielding. That's just off the top of my head, and only the things that are immediately recognized from playing the game (Basically I'm excluding wavedashing and the like here).

What did they add from Melee to Brawl (which, by the way, was a span of seven years)? About nothing. They changed airdodges and they added stooljumping. That's all I can think of--and tripping, let's not forget that. Otherwise they just let you grab the ledge from both sides and there isn't much else.

But they took out lightshielding, l-cancelling, non-fastfalled d-airs with the c-stick, and I think the ability to let go of the edge with no DI by hitting the c-stick away from the stage. This I don't even understand. They actually removed some things from Brawl that were in Melee. Even on the simplest level, there are less options in Brawl. That's not me talking about wavedashing or whatever. I'm talking about with just the very basics, the game has less options.

And to go deeper? No combos (almost), no wavedashing (I usually am really annoyed when people mention this one, but I have to admit it. After playing Melee again I do realize that wavedashing allows for just even more options), no DECENT chainthrows (realize that basically all of them are absolutely ridiculous. Need I mention the release grab?), and no directional airdodging. While regular airdodging seems like it would make the game more realistic or whatever, it just detracts from the game. Directional airdodging made your approaches less predictable and added much easier wavelanding than the wavelanding in Brawl (which is basically just doing non-swordplant aerials on slopes. Big whoop). And approach strategies in general are lacking in Brawl (in quantity, quality, and depth).

Melee demands more of the mind. That's not my evaluation at the end of this--I actually feel that my brain is more involved and that I have to THINK more when playing Melee. I like to think, how about you? I don't want to play some mindless game. If it's not challenging mentally, why play? Let me even rephrase that. If it's not stimulating mentally, why play? They're about the same thing, really.

So we've heard the technical side. What about the 'casual players' ? I myself mostly only play among my friends, and let me say: I have a lot more fun with Melee. Because it gets me more involved I flip out more when I lose in ridiculous ways (which is part of the fun) and feel more satisfied when I win (Or when I, even, pull of combos ;p ). The game is just...better. I can still have fun with Brawl every now and then, and might even do a Brawl tournament or two for fun. But, I do have to say, Brawl leaves me dissatisfied and bored.

So, now I wonder, what are we still debating? I don't think there is anyone who can say and prove that Brawl is or ever will be more deep or more competitive than Melee. It's pretty easy to see the game is more fun than Brawl. As I said earlier, I still play the game, but I enjoy it far less than Melee (and this is coming from a guy who not only played solely Brawl for the first few months after it came out, but also didn't even want to go back to Melee even if it were more competitive).

I have more to say, but I think it doesn't even need to be added. Melee is an amazing game, and Brawl is a good game in its own right.

However, Brawl does not have the competitive level, the longevity, or the allure that Melee has retained for the full seven years it has been out.


And with that, I'm out.

This post is amazing. I love seeing new posters that actually add something to these debates, great work.

 

[LOL_Master]

Proverbs is new, but he isn't stupid. This is rare.

 

[Fletch]

Anybody that honestly believe Snake and Metaknight are in a tier of their own needs to actually try playing the game.

I'm confused by this... tournament results show that MK and especially Snake place disproportionately better than the rest of the cast, which would clearly indicate they are in a tier of their own. How would you prove otherwise?

 

[SamuraiPanda]

I'm confused by this... tournament results show that MK and especially Snake place disproportionately better than the rest of the cast, which would clearly indicate they are in a tier of their own. How would you prove otherwise?

Oh please, you think the first 4 months of a game's tournament scene is enough to definitively say that 2 characters are deserving of their own tier? Its definitely enough to say that they are awesome characters, but not nearly enough to place them above the rest. If that were true then Sheik (IIRC) would have been god tier in Melee.

Hell, the vast majority of people still can't do the IC infinite well enough to pull it off every grab. This game will definitely evolve more over time. Just like every other game, fighter or even RTS, that has "tiers".

 

[Zankoku]

Sheik is god tier in Melee. Just ask UmbreonMow, one of the top Zelda mains in the US. lol

 

[Fletch]

Oh please, you think the first 4 months of a game's tournament scene is enough to definitively say that 2 characters are deserving of their own tier? Its definitely enough to say that they are awesome characters, but not nearly enough to place them above the rest. If that were true then Sheik (IIRC) would have been god tier in Melee.

Regardless, if we are talking about current tiers, I'm pretty sure there is a pretty solid argument for them being placed above anyone else. If they get worse over time or are countered somehow (which is not a guarantee or even likely), they will still be top tier characters. And Sheik is still top tier/one of the best characters in the game, so I don't know where you are going with that.

 

[SamuraiPanda]

Regardless, if we are talking about current tiers, I'm pretty sure there is a pretty solid argument for them being placed above anyone else. If they get worse over time or are countered somehow (which is not a guarantee or even likely), they will still be top tier characters. And Sheik is still top tier/one of the best characters in the game, so I don't know where you are going with that.

I've said this time and time before, and even in the post above. Snake and MK are amazing, and will probably be in the top 5 characters for the rest of the game's lifespan. But they are NOT in a tier by themselves. They will get worse over time (i.e. learn MK's up-B timing to avoid edgeguards; learn that shielding Snake's Ftilt leaves him open, etc.) but probably won't get substantially worse. Also, they already have clear and demonstrated hard counters to them. To name a couple, ROB owns Snake, and MK is fodder for Snake's up-tilt.

Also, do you wonder why the official tier list hasn't been made yet? Because the SBR understands that the game needs time to evolve. There is no question about that.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Panda for President.