thumbswayup
Smash Master
I think it's just being worded wrong here. We don't think people who play Brawl are inferior, we think people who play Brawl and never gave Melee a chance and bash it are inferior. In fact, those people need to be shot.
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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
- Thread starter Scar
- Start date
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Aesir
Smash Master
I like brawl. I also like melee.
Paradoxxxxxxx
Paradoxxxxxxx
thumbswayup
Smash Master
I like Brawl teams, and when it isn't gay. That's almost never though.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
But I can guarantee you that you'll continue to word it incorrectly in the future and continue to bash every Brawl player. This has been brought up before, and not by me, and it still happens on both sides.
Does anyone still vested in this 'debate' care enough to stop blanket-bashing the other side? I'd like to be optimistic, but the evidence isn't in favor of it.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
I don't word it incorrectly, you all just misinterpret. If you'd actually read what I say you'd understand where I'm coming from.
I dont get why people would say people that like brawl more never gave melee a chance. I like brawl more but played melee a lot before brawl came. I like brawl more because none of my mains arent on melee, except 2, it has wi-fi, melee has a lot of copy characters, and my melee doesnt even work.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
You never played Melee competitively so you can't just say, "I played Melee a lot". It has no validity. Saying it has wi-fi isn't a reason either, because Brawl's wi-fi sucks some serious ****. I don't think I've had the desire to burn down Nintendo's headquarters more than when I first tried Brawl wi-fi. Melee having copy characters? That's the most idiotic statement I've ever read. Ganondorf played NOTHING like Captain Falcon. And just try to tell me Fox and Falco played the same. I'll laugh you out of this thread. In fact, Brawl's character moveset has WAY more copied moves than Melee. Wolf's upsmash is the same as Sonic's u air for instance. There are DOZENS of copied moves in Brawl I'm just too lazy to name them all.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Jack. Just wanted to point out that you DID misinterpret what I said a few pages back (even putting "idiot" in there when it wasn't in there).
thumbswayup
Smash Master
He has a tendency to put words in other people's mouths.
bovineblitzkrieg
Smash Journeyman
Thumbs your avatar creeps me out
KosukeKGA
Smash Champion
^ You wouldn't be saying that if you saw The Dark Knight.
Calling a portion of the Brawl supporters ignorant and lazy isn't much better than calling them idiots.
For what it's worth, I don't think I've bashed Brawl supporters except for those that come in here and make ridiculous statements.
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Let's put a smile on that face
metaXzero
Smash Champion
The point is Jack said I said that ALL Brawlers are lazy, ignorant n00bs (or his word "idiots"). As you can see in what I originally said, I never said ALL!
And their are some Brawlers who jumped on the new game bandwagon to escape "glitches" and "be able to beat pros".
Ok why say brawls wi-fi isnt a reason. Brawl has wi-fi melee doesnt. Ganondorf played alot like capton falcon. His moves where the exact same except they looked different. Fox and falco were the exact same character pretty much exept the lazerers. Brawls move set doesnt even come close to melees copied moves, In melee half the characters were copies with most of the moves the same while in brawl only abot 10-15 moves were copied.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
^Do you seriously play Ganonndorf like C. Falcon? Or Falco like Fox? If yes, you really are a n00b.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
.........I'm speechless.
Some1 take this!
Some1 take this!
Clai
Smash Lord
^^^^
*Referring to Chu245's earlier post, darn it fast moving board*
No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NO!
Just because the moves are the same does not mean, in any way, shape, or form that the characters play exactly the same way, especially when those same moves have different effects for each character. For example: Marth and Roy. In the visual, superficial sense, they have exactly the same moveset, nothing is different in how their moves look. Look a bit closer, and you'll see that every bit of Marth's attacks are completely different from Roy's attacks, even though they look exactly the same: the main differences being that Roy's D-tilt sets up combos while Marth's d-tilt is an edgeguarding tool, that Marth's aerials are awesome, while Roy's are ... meh, and Marth can keep his distance because his sword works better at the tip, while Roy has to get in the opponent's face because his sweetspot is smack dab in the center.
I'm not even going to begin Fox and Falco, because I suck with both of them, but you are just so, so wrong. The only characters in Melee that can even be considered clones are the Links, the Marios, and the Chu's. Only they have similar battle-styles, while Marth/Roy, Fox/Falco, and Falcon/Ganondorf have extremely different styles.
MetaXZero, if you decided to just be a little less biased about this whole debate, maybe I'd take you a little more seriously. Really, how would you feel if I called Melee players incessent sugar-junkies that can't survive without pressing 17 button combinations at the same time? You wouldn't like that, would you? Yes, we do have Brawl supporters who are a bit... dimwitted *points above me*, but if we're going to have a serious debate, we're not going anywhere unless each side considers the other side as fair, equal, competitive players. And that's all.
*Referring to Chu245's earlier post, darn it fast moving board*
No. No. No. No. NO! NO! NO!
Just because the moves are the same does not mean, in any way, shape, or form that the characters play exactly the same way, especially when those same moves have different effects for each character. For example: Marth and Roy. In the visual, superficial sense, they have exactly the same moveset, nothing is different in how their moves look. Look a bit closer, and you'll see that every bit of Marth's attacks are completely different from Roy's attacks, even though they look exactly the same: the main differences being that Roy's D-tilt sets up combos while Marth's d-tilt is an edgeguarding tool, that Marth's aerials are awesome, while Roy's are ... meh, and Marth can keep his distance because his sword works better at the tip, while Roy has to get in the opponent's face because his sweetspot is smack dab in the center.
I'm not even going to begin Fox and Falco, because I suck with both of them, but you are just so, so wrong. The only characters in Melee that can even be considered clones are the Links, the Marios, and the Chu's. Only they have similar battle-styles, while Marth/Roy, Fox/Falco, and Falcon/Ganondorf have extremely different styles.
My group of friends are actually the same. Plus we use items! (Barring the hammer and recovery items, everything else is fair game)
MetaXZero, if you decided to just be a little less biased about this whole debate, maybe I'd take you a little more seriously. Really, how would you feel if I called Melee players incessent sugar-junkies that can't survive without pressing 17 button combinations at the same time? You wouldn't like that, would you? Yes, we do have Brawl supporters who are a bit... dimwitted *points above me*, but if we're going to have a serious debate, we're not going anywhere unless each side considers the other side as fair, equal, competitive players. And that's all.
HEEHEEHEEHOOHOO! HAHAHAHEHEHOHO!!!
I forget exactly what the Joker's laugh sounds like when he's getting the **** beat out of him by Batman in the interrogation room.
Very funny -_-
When they changed this on brawl it made the game better, a lot. Why do you think they took out mewtwo, roy, and Dr. Mario in brawl? The reason is because they were too much of a copy of the other character (except mewtwo but lucario i better then him)
Also you say anyone that plays brawl is ignorant. Thats the stupidest thing if heard all day.
@Variola: WTF?
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Clai. Thank you for explaining 2 Chu245.
But like I said AGAIN, my original post said either Brawlers like the slower, defensive pace (didn't say it was a bad thing) OR are lazy, ignorant n00bs. OR! NOT AND! OR!
And neither side is perfect. Melee's side has its own share idiots and fanboys who post without explaining or post false statements. But Brawl's side of idiots are more noticeable versus Melee (Most likely because their are more new Brawlers then new Meleeers(?).
But like I said AGAIN, my original post said either Brawlers like the slower, defensive pace (didn't say it was a bad thing) OR are lazy, ignorant n00bs. OR! NOT AND! OR!
And neither side is perfect. Melee's side has its own share idiots and fanboys who post without explaining or post false statements. But Brawl's side of idiots are more noticeable versus Melee (Most likely because their are more new Brawlers then new Meleeers(?).
thumbswayup
Smash Master
Clai
Smash Lord
Hahaha, I missed the irony on the first one. I meant to say that Pikachu and Pichu play similar too. I wasn't using a play on words there.
I have no idea why you included that bit about my group of friends that play SSB64 in your quote.
And yes, you are a dimwit for thinking that Marth and Roy, Fox and Falco, and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf play the same way for having the same moves.
I also guess that you missed the whole discussion where a group of people hacked into the character selection screen and found data that included, among other characters, Dr. Mario, Roy, and Mewtwo? Perhaps the development team just didn't have enough time to include them, on the grounds that... well, the game was already delayed three times.
To go off-topic, Heath Ledger definately deserves an Oscar. No question.
EDIT: For Metaxzero- even with the use of the word OR, you're still implying that Sakurai made Brawl the way it is because people can't understand the intracacies of Melee and need their hands held to get good at a Smash game. This is for the general mainstream of people who play with their own style and may think that the competitive stream of Melee just isn't for them. Maybe Sakurai wanted to emphasize Smash's reputation as a casual party game by making those changes for Brawl WHILE fixing it just enough to still make it a competitive game on its own. We don't know his intentions.
I have no idea why you included that bit about my group of friends that play SSB64 in your quote.
And yes, you are a dimwit for thinking that Marth and Roy, Fox and Falco, and Captain Falcon and Ganondorf play the same way for having the same moves.
I also guess that you missed the whole discussion where a group of people hacked into the character selection screen and found data that included, among other characters, Dr. Mario, Roy, and Mewtwo? Perhaps the development team just didn't have enough time to include them, on the grounds that... well, the game was already delayed three times.
To go off-topic, Heath Ledger definately deserves an Oscar. No question.
EDIT: For Metaxzero- even with the use of the word OR, you're still implying that Sakurai made Brawl the way it is because people can't understand the intracacies of Melee and need their hands held to get good at a Smash game. This is for the general mainstream of people who play with their own style and may think that the competitive stream of Melee just isn't for them. Maybe Sakurai wanted to emphasize Smash's reputation as a casual party game by making those changes for Brawl WHILE fixing it just enough to still make it a competitive game on its own. We don't know his intentions.
Mewtwo, Roy, and Dr. Mario were intended to be in Brawl, but they either ran out of time or gave up on them. The evidence for this is in the code, or as we like to call it "The Forbidden Seven". If you assume the clones Capt. Falcon/Ganondorf, Mario/Dr. Mario, Link/Young Link, Marth/Roy were all the same because their "moves look the same", then you don't deserve to have an opinion on Melee with regards to Brawl. Please get out.
Excuse me, I'd like to drive now.
Nah id rather stay.
I guarentee you if they put roy, mewtwo, dr. mario, & pichu in brawl their movesets would be totally different. Thats the whole reason nintendo changed the movesets of so many characters.
Like several of us have already stated, none of the movesets are the same. Some may look similar, but are often completely different. This does not make Brawl better, because there are many more moves in Brawl that are the exact same between characters than there are in Melee. Your inexperience and ignorance shows that you really don't deserve to post here.
metaXzero
Smash Champion
Clai? Did you miss that interview a few months back? Sakurai said that he didn't want Brawl to emphasize winning. That he didn't want the people who lose to feel bad while winners are happy. he didn't want matches to have a consistent winner (hence tripping or "a special game mechanic that will turn the match in around in my favor" was implemented). He also didn't want to let people have an advantage via WDing (which is why airdodging was changed).
Clai, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not flaming Brawl here. I'm stating facts.
Clai, don't take this the wrong way. I'm not flaming Brawl here. I'm stating facts.
Scar
#HarveyDent
You're just lucky I wasn't lazy. I decided not to triple post.
Scar
#HarveyDent
This was a good response to the thread and it was directed at me so I felt like I should respond to it.
Competitive Smash players do strip as many unpredictable aspects of SSB as we can in each game. Part of my complaint is that SSBB doesn't allow us to remove some of the random features like tripping, but that's not the point either. I guess I just wanted to explain to you that most players in the Melee community almost always play on the 6 neutral stages with no items on in a 4 stock match.
Define viable. If you mean that you can hold more successful tournaments with more money and more people involved then unfortunately the answer is SSBB.
If you're claiming to take both games and see which engine makes for a better tournament game, the answer is very clearly and boldly SSBM, which is the debate here.
SSBB has more competition available, SSBM is and always will be a more competitive game. Big difference.
Clai, this is fine, but like it just shows to all the Melee players that top Brawl players (or at least competitive Brawl players) have only looked as far into the game as we all had before we even heard of L-canceling. That isn't right.
It's very often (and when I used to actually monitor this thread it was daily) that someone who had no idea what competitive Melee was would come into this thread and tell us what the game was all about. It's very frustrating to have to explain the terms of the debate to people, and an opinion is far more likely to be worthless if the person offering it has no idea what he's talking about.
Casual players are entitled to their opinion, and if I were a casual player I might even like Brawl more (not true), but for the thousandth time, Wi-Fi doesn't make Brawl a more competitive game.
That interview was not a few months ago, it was a few years ago. and he was not talking about Brawl, he was talking about Melee.
And that interview about Melee was used by Gimpyfish to critisice Brawl in one of his threads.
Clai
Smash Lord
I'm going to quote myself in reply to this: "This is the general mainstream of people who play with their own style and may think that the competitive style of Melee just isn't for them." Jack Keiser said this as well, that the speed of Melee was too quick for people to enjoy it in the casual sense. Adding my own thoughts, if anyone in a casual group were to have even a slight technical advantage over the rest, that person would be poised to win a lot more than other people and that may drive the rest of the group to shun the game alltogether. That may be why Sakurai made these changes- to assure that casual groups of players would be able to enjoy this game and continue playing it without the frustration of losing all the time even if one person was just slightly worse than the other person.
The whole air-dodge revamp I think was done to give it a more general purpose than a means for wave-dashing. Air dodging was made so people could dodge in the air, and giving a person a dramatic shift in momentum and allowing a person to use it only once, like Melee had it, defeated the purpose of dodging in the air. I personally love what Sakurai did to the whole air-dodge system, as it gives aerial combat just as much emphasis as ground combat.
So to put what you said in perspective: Brawl is for players who like a slower, more defensive pace and for casual players who know and accept that they won't get into the competitive system. People who know that they can't play competitively and won't accept that are known as scrubs, and they should be ignored and castrated.
I agree with you. The people that you describe definately should have their opinions nullified and invalidated. The problem is that the mass of newcomers that think they should be debated when they have elementary-school knowledge is detracting from the number of Brawl supporters who actually have a knowledgable opinion and are making their case for Brawl as a competitive game. As much as you say that it's frustrating to explain your side of the debate, we have to explain our terms of the debate while at the same time trying to keep our credibility while morons shred the Brawl community's respectability away.
What I'm trying to say is: the only way a debate like this can make any progress is when valid, knowledgeable people who know and can explain Melee meet and discuss their points with valid, knowledgeable people who know and can explain Brawl. I'm sorry that your side has to do much more filtering to find our valid points in the seas of ignorant Brawl idiots than our side. That's just the nature of today's ADD-filled, crappy song like "I Kissed a Girl" - loving society.
This one about Brawl outlines Sakurai's mindset when making the game: Iwata Asks
That makes no sense. You think just because brawl is for casual people means that they suck and cant compete competitively? Your so wrong, their are tons of brawl tournaments now, probally more than melee. You melee fans keep saying people that like brawl are idiots and yet you have barely any reasons to support that.
HoChiMinhTrail
Smash Master
.... do you read posts...
The answer to the above statement is: NO YOU DONT.
Im sick of these brawl noobs jesus...
Dark Knight Pwns btw...... just amazing...
First off, Clai is a Brawl supporter. He also did not accuse all Brawl players of being casuals who can't play on a competitive level. He simply said that there are people who play competitively and like the playstyle Brawl encourages, there are people who play it for fun because they can't play on a competitive level and accept that fact, and there are people who think they can play on a competitive level but don't accept the fact that they are just awful at the game.
There are many more Brawl tournaments than Melee. You know why? Brawl brought in so many casuals and scrubs that the winnings at big tournaments are becoming huge. The more people that lose at the tournaments, the more money the placers win.
I never said that people who like Brawl are idiots, but you aren't helping other Melee supporters from letting go of that stereotype with your posting. Please stop, you're only making it worse.
MarKO X
Smash Champion
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Melee fans play Brawl, even though they say Melee is better.
Melee fans think Brawl is luck based.
Melee fans think crackhead speed is better.
Melee fans thinks opinions are facts if they come from other Melee fans. (this one, I'm most disgusted about...)
See, there you melee fans go again *facepalm*
And marko is exactly right.
Variola ive met tons of brawlers that dont suck. Variola your the one making it worse. You say melee is better and yet you only have 1 reason to support that, and that is that brawl is for casual people that suck? Brawl players are probally in fact better than melee players because when brawl came out most people that played melee gave up playing melee and switched to brawl.
If you don't want to be stereotyped by Melee fans, maybe you shouldn't do the same to them.
Im not. I never say "melee players suck" I simply say that melee fans say that too much.
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