Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Clai]

That makes no sense. You think just because brawl is for casual people means that they suck and cant compete competitively? Your so wrong, their are tons of brawl tournaments now, probally more than melee. You melee fans keep saying people that like brawl are idiots and yet you have barely any reasons to support that.

First of all, I can't even differentiate how the words that I use in my quotes are used to support your argument. Your arguments have absolutely no base whatsoever, and it makes explaining myself REALLY DIFFICULT.

There are three groups that I'm talking about here:

• The first group is the people who buy Brawl because they have a circle of friends who just want to get together and play smash the way they like it. They use a whole crazy assortment of items/stages/characters/strategies because that's what is fun for them. They know that we have our own competitive circuit and ways that we play, but they choose not to fit in it because they know that our way isn't for them. This is the great majority of people who buy Brawl, and as long as they don't complain about the way we play, we won't complain about theirs.

• The second group is made up of people who are like the people in the first group, except that they think that the competitive circuit should be designed for their wants and their wants alone when they have absolutely no knowledge of the system itself. These are the people that barge into our forums and talk about how we should start using items in competitive play and start bashing Melee players for using Advanced Techniques when they're secretly praying for some wavedash-tech that somehow makes Brawl amazing. These people are idiots that don't know when to quit. This group is Starl33t. Man, I wish I knew where he is right now...

• The third group consists of the debaters like myself (I wish I knew how to be an official debater, 'cause I'm much better at this than actually playing the game). We know all of the inherent parts of the system. We know all of the minutae of the Melee circuit and all of the minutae of the Brawl circuit and try to make reasonable debates about which game is better/smarter/more competitive/etc. with all the knowledge presented. These are the people that wish that the people in the second group actually know what they're talking about before flashing their e-peens in our faces and trying to act smart.

I'm not going through this again:
There are people who play Brawl as it is: the casual party game where items and stages create havoc and play by any rules that they want. They are cool people, as long as they don't go crashing our parties.
There are people who play Melee competitively and are so high and mighty in their elitism that Brawl is a child's game to them and they think that anyone who likes Brawl more than Melee are either idiots or babies that need our hands held. These people are jerks and I would punch them in the face if I ever met them on the street.
There are people who think they can play Brawl competitively but in reality don't know anything about Brawl or Melee. These are the people that make absolute blanket statements and bash anyone who disagrees with their opinion, no matter how crazy, stupid or wrong it is. These people make me wish I could punch people through the Internet.
There are people who play Brawl competitively and actually know what they're talking about. These people may have played Melee competitively, maybe not, but at least they are knowledgeable enough about Melee to make valid comparisons between the two games and not look like idiots.

You are just an idiot that makes confusing statements and know nothing about the competitive system for Brawl or Melee.

 

[thumbswayup]

It's about this time that we should all put Chu245 on our ignore lists, and continue to discuss how amazing Dark Knight is.

 

[Chuee]

It's about this time that we should all put Chu245 on our ignore lists, and continue to discuss how amazing Dark Knight is.

*cough* and that would be spam my friend -_-

And no im not a n0ob that plays with items. And you talk about people that say brawl is a childs game and people that play it are idiots. Ive heard about 5 people say that in this thread already -_-

 

[Reaver197]

Melee fans play Brawl, even though they say Melee is better.
Melee fans think Brawl is luck based.
Melee fans think crackhead speed is better.
Melee fans thinks opinions are facts if they come from other Melee fans. (this one, I'm most disgusted about...)

I'm annoyed mostly by the fact that a lot of Brawl supporters, like yourself, come in and say "well, that's only your opinion" as if that completely invalidates the argument, and then don't even have any good counterarguments.

It seems to me that, in terms of evaluating which game is the better game for competitive play, it has been quite decisively proven to be Melee because Brawl supporters don't have any good counterarguments to prove otherwise.

Give evidence, give reasons, give a rational explanation. Don't just sit there floundering about saying "well, that's only your opinion".

 

[EC_Joey]

I want to keep pointing out how stupid his statements are...

...but I don't want to live long enough to see myself become the villain.

 

[Chuee]

It seems to me that, in terms of evaluating which game is the better game for competitive play, it has been quite decisively proven to be Melee because Brawl supporters don't have any good counterarguments to prove otherwise.

Give evidence, give reasons, give a rational explanation. Don't just sit there floundering about saying "well, that's only your opinion".[/QUOTE]

1. I never said brawl was more competitive. Probally the same people that play brawl and suck are the ones that sucked at melee

.Give evidence, give reasons, give a rational explanation. Don't just sit there floundering about saying "well, that's only your opinion".

2. You say that yet I could say that exact thing to melee fans.

 

[thumbswayup]

*cough* and that would be spam my friend -_-

And no im not a n0ob that plays with items. And you talk about people that say brawl is a childs game and people that play it are idiots. Ive heard about 5 people say that in this thread already -_-

If you didn't play both Melee and Brawl competitively, then you're opinion is not valid. That goes for EVERYONE that thinks about posting. Unless you come in here with and open mind and are willing to learn from people who know far more about these games than you then don't waste our time.

Why am I so serious?

 

[Reaver197]

Well, I wasn't specifically talking to you Chu, but yeah, I guess my point extends to you as well. Anyway, there is an exhaustive amount of good reasons given for why Melee is the better game competitively within this thread. However, to tell someone to read through 425 pages of posts (most of which wouldn't be providing good reasons) would be unreasonable of me to ask.

All I can say is that there are good reasons listed in here. While it would be impossible for me to give any sort of compilation of them (plus, I'm way too lazy to search through 400+ pages myself for all of them), what you can do is give the your reasons for why you think Brawl is better than Melee competitively, and then we'll give you a reason for why we think it is not.

But, instead, you guys often give no reasons, no debatable opinions (nor often intelligent opinions).

 

[EC_Joey]

You say that yet I could say that exact thing to melee fans.

If you want evidence, go looking for it. There's so much that's been posted in this thread relating to reasons and proof of these assumptions, most of us are too lazy to go back, look it up, and post it for your sake. It would probably be a futile effort, judging from the ignorance you've already shown us.

 

[Chuee]

If you didn't play both Melee and Brawl competitively, then you're opinion is not valid. That goes for EVERYONE that thinks about posting. Unless you come in here with and open mind and are willing to learn from people who know far more about these games than you then don't waste our time.

Why am I so serious?

I already said melee is more competitive than brawl so what do you want now -_-
But brawl is more fun than melee. Its more enjoyable than melee was for me but i wasnt good at melee so :/

And im sure theres also great opinions why brawl is better too variola.

 

[LOL_Master]

or use hard evidence, such as playing against someone that's as good/knowledgeable as me, humble yourself and ask questions, after all, this is a game, but a great game for that matter

 

[Reaver197]

I already said melee is more competitive than brawl so what do you want now -_-
But brawl is more fun than melee. Its more enjoyable than melee was.

Well, you see, the point of the thread (ostensibly) is showing which game is the better game competitively. For some people, that also means which game is more "fun" for them. If you wanted to argue about which game you found more fun and why, it would get no where, because what one person might find fun another might hate. Determining which game is the better competitively at least calling for a higher level of objectivity and neutrality (but can never achieve either).

 

[thumbswayup]

I already said melee is more competitive than brawl so what do you want now -_-
But brawl is more fun than melee. Its more enjoyable than melee was.

At least you admit it's more competitive. However, saying, "Brawl is more fun than Melee", and, "It's more enjoyable than Melee was", is incredibly ignorant of you. You NEVER played Melee the way we did, thus you cannot say Brawl is more fun than it. A more accurate statement for you would be, "I never played Melee at high level play, but I do for Brawl and find it fun. I cannot say which game is better because I never really played Melee and don't understand it's fantastic potential."

 

[EC_Joey]

And im sure theres also great opinions why brawl is better too variola.

Jack Kieser made some interesting points to this effect, but I didn't see anything decisive come out of it.

 

[Skler]

I think Melee is more fun than Brawl, go opinions go.

The competitiveness isn't an opinion though. Melee is more competitive than brawl because it rewards practice and has more viable options at any given time. It has a less restricting engine, that's pretty much what it all comes down to. The player is limited by their reflexes, finger speed, ability to process information and tricksiness (like a hobbitses). I'm sure some people can say it better than me, but that's the basic argument for Melee, I just didn't feel like taking a long time and writing up a research paper on it.

 

[Chuee]

At least you admit it's more competitive. However, saying, "Brawl is more fun than Melee", and, "It's more enjoyable than Melee was", is incredibly ignorant of you. You NEVER played Melee the way we did, thus you cannot say Brawl is more fun than it. A more accurate statement for you would be, "I never played Melee at high level play, but I do for Brawl and find it fun. I cannot say which game is better because I never really played Melee and don't understand it's fantastic potential."

Id say if i played melee now then it would be incredibly boring pretty much because there would be noone around that would be good enough to face me, everyone at my school sucks at brawl so there not a challenge. So if i wanted to have fun on melee id have to go all the way to another state just for a tournament. And even for you people that may know people that are good at melee in your area, you would have to call them and invite them over or go over to their house while in brawl you can simply call them on the phone and play them in wi-fi. And you can also play people from far away in brawl. And melee was way funner 2 player than 1 player.

 

[EC_Joey]

Nobody to play johns have been around since the beginning. Wi-fi is nothing like playing in person. You can actually react fast enough to your opponent's actions rather than spam moves hoping that they hit him because he can't react fast enough.

Playing Brawl and/or Melee in 1 player mode is ridiculously boring. SSE was a huge chore for me. A maze built from all the previous levels I beat? REALLY?

 

[Reaver197]

A maze built from all the previous levels I beat? REALLY?

Nintendo's game philosophy to the dot. Rehashing, retracing, redoing. God, I stopped playing the DS Zelda just because it kept making me go back to that ****ing temple every god**** time anything happened.

So, Chu, if you have never experienced what Melee is like at its finest, then how can you, with clear conscience, pass judgment on it?

 

[LavisFiend]

Megaman is much worse in terms of the whole repeat what you just did thing.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Can we pretend to know what Brawl is at its finest (Reaver)?

Sure it might become a spam-filled campfest, but we have absolutely no idea what Brawl will be at its finest yet. Brawl hasn't even got the details of "what's tournament legal" cemented.

 

[MarKO X]

I'm annoyed mostly by the fact that a lot of Brawl supporters, like yourself, come in and say "well, that's only your opinion" as if that completely invalidates the argument, and then don't even have any good counterarguments.

It seems to me that, in terms of evaluating which game is the better game for competitive play, it has been quite decisively proven to be Melee because Brawl supporters don't have any good counterarguments to prove otherwise.

Give evidence, give reasons, give a rational explanation. Don't just sit there floundering about saying "well, that's only your opinion".

No, I respect your opinion. I respect the opinion that Melee is the better game, I just don't agree with it. I've compared the two games in a thread I started a while back that got little response, so maybe I'll do it again right here. I took 7 facts and anaylzed them:

-------------------------------------------------------
- Melee is faster paced than Brawl.
- Melee has WaveDashing and L-cancelling. Brawl does not.
- Melee has DashDancing. Brawl has a crappy version of it.
- Melee has 25 characters. Brawl has 35 characters. (not counting transformations such as Shiek, etc.)
- Melee has more gravity than the floatier Brawl.
- In Melee, your recovery has to be quite precise. In Brawl, not so much.
- Melee has combos. Brawl hardly has them and replaces them with "attack strings."

This is stuff that everybody here probably already knows, and thus has used these facts to draw the conclusion that Melee is deeper than Brawl... or is it? Let's look into these seven facts a little deeper:

Melee is faster paced than Brawl. The faster pace is something that I miss from Melee, but not by much, as Brawl's slower pace makes for a longer, strategic, and more epic battle for both contestants.

Melee has WaveDashing and L-cancelling. Brawl does not. WDing and L-Cancelling are probably two of Melee's greatest techs, and Brawl doesn't have them. That's not to say that Brawl doesn have its own techs, nor does it close the door on techs that can be discovered in the future.

Melee has DashDancing. Brawl has a crappy version of it. I simply mentioned this because playing Melee had reminded me just how much I miss DashDancing with Marth to scare the **** outta people. Once again, I miss it, but I've gotten over it.

Melee has 25 characters. Brawl has 35 characters. With Brawl having more characters than Melee, you'll have more abilities, quirks, strengths, weaknesses, specific character techs, and character matchups to worry about. If you surf the Brawl Character Discussions, you'll find plenty of info for characters with all of the above mentioned data as well as new stuff being discovered (or almost being discovered) every day. I know that a huge roster of characters alone doesn't make a deep fighting game, but with the wide variety of characters that Brawl has, it surely helps.

Melee has more gravity than the floatier Brawl. Many people find Brawl's floatiness to be one of its biggest flaws. I find it to be a decent asset; not only does it help this game establish a separate identitiy from Melee, but it also presents a slightly untapped arena of aerial combat. My prediction is that as people play this game, ther aerial mind game will develop, which will include the precise timing of attacking and airdodging. (on a side note, if you don't already do so, try this: every so often as someone falls from the air and it's oh so obvious that they're gonna airdodge to avoid your attack, wait a split second before attacking once you're in range...)

In Melee, your recovery has to be precise. In Brawl, not so much. Recovery in Brawl is much, much easier than it is in Melee, but on the same token, it's always easier if you just allow your opponent to recover. What I don't think a lot of people realize, however, is that because Brawl is floatier, it's actually easier to edgeguard as well (of course, more so with some characters than others). So here's a philosophical question: If it's easier to edgeguard, is it easier to recover? Only time will answer that question.

Melee has combos. Brawl hardly has them and replaces them with "attack strings". After going back to Melee, using Marth and fairing opponents to their dair doom as well as catching many CF nair to fair aerials, I can tell you non-believers that you have NOT been doing combos for the most part. Melee has combos where even if you DI in one direction to escape, you're not escaping because you airdodged or you attacked back yourself. Because of a lack of hitstun and the redcued gravity, Brawl hardly has combos, and it's easy to escape a next attack. However, with low knockback attacks, you opponent only has but so many ways to avoid a next attack, and avoiding it one way can lead to an opening of a different kind if you misread the situation. This is what one may call "tech chasing" and is another aspect where I believe Brawl has untapped depth; as opposed to one attack leading directly to another, forming a combo, one attack can lead into one of many possiblities based on what the character can do as a result. The better your tech chase for the situation, the better your attack string. Of course, this probably sounds like trash until you're ablr to score six or seven unanswered hits in one "attack string," thus annoying the **** outta your opponent.

My conclusion: Brawl is every foot as deep as is Melee. However, these two games dig two different holes, since if you haven't already noticed, Brawl and Melee are two different games. the key to understanding Brawl's depth is to stop thinking of this game in terms of Melee. If you look at Brawl as though the previous game never existed, you'll notice a lot of little nuances, maybe even more than what I just tried to bring to your attention, that could raise the way you play Brawl to a new level.

Of course, there are still psuedo-ultimate techs such as camping to deal with it... as the game gets older, tearing a camp up will be learned soon... I think...
-----------------------------------------------------------

So it's not like I haven't taken in the facts to formulate my opinions. If you have any other facts about the comparasions betweem Melee and Brawl that you'd like to share with me, I'll gladly add those to my analysis of Melee, and from there, come up with an opinion.

 

[znintendotaku]

↑respect↑

 

[Endless Nightmares]

I second that ↑respect↑

 

[Reaver197]

Ok MarKO X, the first thing I'm going to have to say is that you're giving a lot of opinions, but not giving any evidence to back it up.

Just as an example, you say that due to Brawl's slower pace, the game is (or can be) more "strategic" than Melee. Why does being slower make it more strategic? How does it? You just say it as if it's some intrinsic, deducible fact from Brawl being slower.

Instead, I hold that Brawl is not any more strategic than Melee and is in fact less strategic by virtue of the fact that you have fewer options at your fingers at any given point in time in Brawl than Melee. Wavedashing, dashdancing, and l-canceling are just some representations of that. So, in Melee, at any given moment, you have many more things you have to consider before acting or even as you're acting. You have to be much more strategic because the larger potential actions your opponent and you have, and the possible punishment either one can receive for being mistaken or out-strategized.

Man, this is a long list, so I'm just gonna post this first bit now and add/edit in more.

But anyway, it strikes me that you are also guilty of drawing and deducing "facts" without any rationalizations or evidence.

Same for the "untapped arena of aerial combat". You're implying that, somehow, currently (and specifically) aerial combat in Brawl is underdeveloped, or is lacking, and that it can be better than Melee's aerial game. Again, why and how? You say we have to predict airdodging in Brawl, but I fail to see how that's somehow less than trying to predict DI or even airdodging in Melee, which is so much more unpredictable as to where you'll go? In Brawl, you cannot change one iota of the direction you're going when you airdodge, so it's easy as pie to be able to predict for it and be in position to punish it. In Melee, then can go in any direction. On the flip side for airdodger, in Melee, you really have to be intelligent with your use of it because you're left defenseless after it.

Then you go and mention "untapped depth" once again in your last point. What is this untapped depth? How is there to be seen so plainly by you, but remain so underutilized? You say there is this prospect of a sort of "tech chasing" aspect to these theoretical strings of attacks, but you forget to realize that another issue with Brawl is that you can often hit people too far away for you to be able to follow up on because of how slow characters/attacks are.

In the end, you write so much to say and suggest very little.

And, oh yeah, sorry that I didn't see your post earlier Halloween Captain, but I think it even further lends argument to my point, though I do understand what you're getting to. It seems to me, that by the evidence of how much attention and effort has gone into trying to explore the depths of Brawl and how little the metagame has seem to have developed or change, that Brawl as it is now is pretty much how it will be for the years to come (more or less).

However, I do concede the point that I cannot say that with 100% certainty, but it seems the most likely outcome.

 

[Teczer0]

SSE was a huge chore for me. A maze built from all the previous levels I beat? REALLY?

I remember when I first got the game and I told myself SSE was going to be amazing and Im gonna beat it in a day.

Took me more like a week maybe more .

 

[Skler]

Melee is faster paced than Brawl. The faster pace is something that I miss from Melee, but not by much, as Brawl's slower pace makes for a longer, strategic, and more epic battle for both contestants.

I'm pretty sure about 100% of people will agree Melee matches are more epic. Melee has combos, a fast pace and everything you need to make something epic. Brawl has a slower pace and gratuitous camping. That isn't epic, unless you think checkers is epic. Saying it's more strategic is a straight up lie, and that was proven in the post above mine.

Melee has WaveDashing and L-cancelling. Brawl does not. WDing and L-Cancelling are probably two of Melee's greatest techs, and Brawl doesn't have them. That's not to say that Brawl doesn have its own techs, nor does it close the door on techs that can be discovered in the future.

Brawl techs aren't as useful and don't open up as many options as the Melee techs. maybe something new will be found, but probably not. Don't argue with "well we might find something". We can still find new things in Melee too.

Melee has DashDancing. Brawl has a crappy version of it. I simply mentioned this because playing Melee had reminded me just how much I miss DashDancing with Marth to scare the **** outta people. Once again, I miss it, but I've gotten over it.

Great, you got over the fact Brawl pretty much removed an awesome option. Brawl still doesn't have a dash dance that's nearly as useful as Melee.

Melee has 25 characters. Brawl has 35 characters. With Brawl having more characters than Melee, you'll have more abilities, quirks, strengths, weaknesses, specific character techs, and character matchups to worry about. If you surf the Brawl Character Discussions, you'll find plenty of info for characters with all of the above mentioned data as well as new stuff being discovered (or almost being discovered) every day. I know that a huge roster of characters alone doesn't make a deep fighting game, but with the wide variety of characters that Brawl has, it surely helps.

The only characters that matter are the tournament viable ones. I have one thousand pounds of garbage and one pound of gold. You have fifty pounds of garbage and one pound of gold. Who gives a **** about who has more garbage? Nobody. All that matters is the gold because it's useful. Melee probably has more tournament viable characters anyways. Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon and Samus all have at least one even/good matchup against the top 3 (fox, falco and marth). I'm not even including the ICs here who are still plenty good. That means they're viable. Show me brawl characters with an even/good matchup against Snake and MK.

Melee has more gravity than the floatier Brawl. Many people find Brawl's floatiness to be one of its biggest flaws. I find it to be a decent asset; not only does it help this game establish a separate identitiy from Melee, but it also presents a slightly untapped arena of aerial combat. My prediction is that as people play this game, ther aerial mind game will develop, which will include the precise timing of attacking and airdodging. (on a side note, if you don't already do so, try this: every so often as someone falls from the air and it's oh so obvious that they're gonna airdodge to avoid your attack, wait a split second before attacking once you're in range...)

Might as well say Melee has more of a ground game than Brawl because of the increased gravity (Melee does, but mostly because of L-canceling). Aerial game =/= better game, and most characters try to stay on the ground to abuse Brawl's shield anyways. You don't see good players both jumping and flying at each other with aerials because that's usually stupid.

In Melee, your recovery has to be precise. In Brawl, not so much. Recovery in Brawl is much, much easier than it is in Melee, but on the same token, it's always easier if you just allow your opponent to recover. What I don't think a lot of people realize, however, is that because Brawl is floatier, it's actually easier to edgeguard as well (of course, more so with some characters than others). So here's a philosophical question: If it's easier to edgeguard, is it easier to recover? Only time will answer that question.

So the dumbing down of edgeguarding and recovering is a good thing? It's easier to do both, mistakes are less fatal (if you get hit by an edgeguard you just DI it up and recover again, oh no). Melee edgeguarding was harder and recovering in Melee was harder. the reason is because making a mistake with either one meant you could lose a stock. Btw, the answer is it's easier to recover, the airdodge system and autosweetspot make sure of that. Edgeguarding usually leads to slightly more damage, not a loss of stock.

Melee has combos. Brawl hardly has them and replaces them with "attack strings". After going back to Melee, using Marth and fairing opponents to their dair doom as well as catching many CF nair to fair aerials, I can tell you non-believers that you have NOT been doing combos for the most part. Melee has combos where even if you DI in one direction to escape, you're not escaping because you airdodged or you attacked back yourself. Because of a lack of hitstun and the redcued gravity, Brawl hardly has combos, and it's easy to escape a next attack. However, with low knockback attacks, you opponent only has but so many ways to avoid a next attack, and avoiding it one way can lead to an opening of a different kind if you misread the situation. This is what one may call "tech chasing" and is another aspect where I believe Brawl has untapped depth; as opposed to one attack leading directly to another, forming a combo, one attack can lead into one of many possiblities based on what the character can do as a result. The better your tech chase for the situation, the better your attack string. Of course, this probably sounds like trash until you're ablr to score six or seven unanswered hits in one "attack string," thus annoying the **** outta your opponent.

Melee doesn't have that many "real" combos. However, it's much more difficult to escape a Melee combo than it is a Brawl combo (that isn't a CG), you have to DI very well and use a good attack or time an airdodge. In Brawl you can usually get away with mashing L while being hit. That isn't really what I'd call skill. Melee has everything you're saying Brawl has here. Melee has both strings and real combos, Brawl only has easy to break strings.

My conclusion: Brawl is every foot as deep as is Melee. However, these two games dig two different holes, since if you haven't already noticed, Brawl and Melee are two different games. the key to understanding Brawl's depth is to stop thinking of this game in terms of Melee. If you look at Brawl as though the previous game never existed, you'll notice a lot of little nuances, maybe even more than what I just tried to bring to your attention, that could raise the way you play Brawl to a new level.

No. Melee did exist and it's deeper, you're just blind to it.

Of course, there are still psuedo-ultimate techs such as camping to deal with it... as the game gets older, tearing a camp up will be learned soon... I think...

I doubt it, Brawl's defensive options are broken.

So it's not like I haven't taken in the facts to formulate my opinions. If you have any other facts about the comparasions betweem Melee and Brawl that you'd like to share with me, I'll gladly add those to my analysis of Melee, and from there, come up with an opinion.

Shazam.

 

[MarKO X]

I'm a make my responses inside the quote cause now I'm getting lazy of this...

I'm pretty sure about 100% of people will agree Melee matches are more epic. Melee has combos, a fast pace and everything you need to make something epic. Brawl has a slower pace and gratuitous camping. That isn't epic, unless you think checkers is epic. Saying it's more strategic is a straight up lie, and that was proven in the post above mine.

Brawl's slower pace does make for an epic match because both players will see what's coming. It's more strategic because of the priority that defense has... it's like basketball, "Offense sells tickets, defense wins championships." -quote from some coach in the movie "Love & Basketball." If you wanna do something, you're gonna have to do something that breaks the defense. Call it corny all you want, but I love when a fight of any kind prioritizes defense, because it's like, "I'm not going to blindly rush in to hit you... no, I need to have my defense up, and maybe I'll hit you from there." Now, it can't be argued that your offensive options are limited while defense rules, but when you are able to use those options to its greatest potential, then you'll get an epic attack, and maybe even an epic finish.

Brawl techs aren't as useful and don't open up as many options as the Melee techs. maybe something new will be found, but probably not. Don't argue with "well we might find something". We can still find new things in Melee too.

1) Brawl's "advanced techs" aren't very useful at all, I find that using the simple stuff such as footstooling, safe falling (ie teching), wall teching, and spot dodging are much more useful than half of the stuff that shows up here in the BTD on SWF. Most of it is situational, but it's still good to know when those "situations" come up.
2) Find new things in Melee... but you aren't playing Melee, are you? You're playing Brawl.

Great, you got over the fact Brawl pretty much removed an awesome option. Brawl still doesn't have a dash dance that's nearly as useful as Melee.

Absolutely.

The only characters that matter are the tournament viable ones. I have one thousand pounds of garbage and one pound of gold. You have fifty pounds of garbage and one pound of gold. Who gives a **** about who has more garbage? Nobody. All that matters is the gold because it's useful. Melee probably has more tournament viable characters anyways. Fox, Falco, Marth, Sheik, Peach, Jigglypuff, Captain Falcon and Samus all have at least one even/good matchup against the top 3 (fox, falco and marth). I'm not even including the ICs here who are still plenty good. That means they're viable. Show me brawl characters with an even/good matchup against Snake and MK.

If you check the character rankings thread(CRT), you do see that Snake and MK do dominate, but it doesn't the results of every tournament (not that every tournament matters, lol). Snake is really the only feared character in my eyes, as he has power and speed, mines, projectiles, and a beastly close range game. MK is nice, as his recovery is crazy, his priority is crazy, and he has combos, but because Brawl is "campy" as it's put, anyone with a projectile could take on MK pretty well, as should anyone with pretty good priority and range (i.e. Marth). However, the CRT does show other characters picking up wins in tourneys as well. What I'd love to see is a CR for Melee so that I could compare it.

Might as well say Melee has more of a ground game than Brawl because of the increased gravity (Melee does, but mostly because of L-canceling). Aerial game =/= better game, and most characters try to stay on the ground to abuse Brawl's shield anyways. You don't see good players both jumping and flying at each other with aerials because that's usually stupid.

Its not about flying into the air to do pointless aerials. It's about using attacks that get your opponent into the air to initiate aerial combat. That's where the game begins.

So the dumbing down of edgeguarding and recovering is a good thing? It's easier to do both, mistakes are less fatal (if you get hit by an edgeguard you just DI it up and recover again, oh no). Melee edgeguarding was harder and recovering in Melee was harder. the reason is because making a mistake with either one meant you could lose a stock. Btw, the answer is it's easier to recover, the airdodge system and autosweetspot make sure of that. Edgeguarding usually leads to slightly more damage, not a loss of stock.

The dumbing down of edgeguarding and recovery does spoil the risk/reward system as it's been known for in Smash, as there's little rish to edgeguarding, while the reward is more damage, which can lead to an easier kill the next time around. Why not go for it?

Melee doesn't have that many "real" combos. However, it's much more difficult to escape a Melee combo than it is a Brawl combo (that isn't a CG), you have to DI very well and use a good attack or time an airdodge. In Brawl you can usually get away with mashing L while being hit. That isn't really what I'd call skill. Melee has everything you're saying Brawl has here. Melee has both strings and real combos, Brawl only has easy to break strings.

You can usually get away with mashing the L button, and yet in video of professional Brawling, people still end up getting juggled with attack strings, even though they have the option to tap that L button for safety.

 

[Reaver197]

So...I don't see how any of those responses add up to an argument that Brawl is somehow equally or more competitive than Melee.

Edit: Also, lol at otakuface's sig. The ultimate example of running away and hiding under another facade of an argument.

 

[metaXzero]

Marco X. Could you show an ACTUAL professional match where their is juggling and attack strings? Because I've yet to see attack strings really work in anything besides those "combo" videos and n00b matches.

 

[DrewB008]

from what i can tell, marko x isnt good at melee or brawl

sup skler its bigd hows it going

 

[metaXzero]

He did make a thread saying he and (In His Opinion) all Brawlers like Brawl because they sucked at Melee >_>

 

[Chuee]

from what i can tell, marko x isnt good at melee or brawl

heh and you say that why? Who knows he could be incredible at brawl, you dont know.

 

[DrewB008]

i say it cause he says things like edgeguarding is easier, when all the players i know, the ones who win tournaments, pretty much agree that trying too hard to go out there and edgeguard is a good way to get yourself killed more often than to get a ko. some other stuff too, but i dont feel like scrolling up.

 

[Eternal phoenix Fire]

This topic has become very inconsistent in my absence. lol

 

[Chuee]

i say it cause he says things like edgeguarding is easier, when all the players i know, the ones who win tournaments, pretty much agree that trying too hard to go out there and edgeguard is a good way to get yourself killed more often than to get a ko. some other stuff too, but i dont feel like scrolling up.

You dont have to win at tournaments to be a good smasher <_<

 

[Reaver197]

You dont have to win at tournaments to be a good smasher <_<

How do you tell otherwise? Especially with such a non-tech based game like Brawl? You have to prove your credentials.

 

[LavisFiend]

This topic has become very inconsistent in my absence. lol

This is what happens when people beat a dead horse into a pile of maggots.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You dont have to win at tournaments to be a good smasher <_<

Then define "skill," casual player number sixty billion.

This thread is geared towards high-end competitive play, not people that sit around and play with their friends or play over Wi-Fi. Not to be harsh, but it's the truth.

>____>

Smooth Criminal

 

[LavisFiend]

Then define "skill," casual player number sixty billion.

This thread is geared towards high-end competitive play, not people that sit around and play with their friends or play over Wi-Fi. Not to be harsh, but it's the truth.

>____>

Smooth Criminal

Quit associating casual players with morons.

You're stereotyping.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Quit associating casual players with morons.

You're stereotyping.

Didn't call him a moron, Lavis. I just made the assumption that he was a casual player; that's all. I don't see why there should be a negative connotation here.

Casual players really don't have a place in threads like these---no doubt even YOU can attest to that. It's not to say casual players can't post their opinion or anything like that, but they should at least have the decency to back it up with a little more than "hear-say" which is what I feel Chu is doing.

Then again, I AM assuming that he's casual. Perhaps he is looking to be more competitive. Who knows? Only he knows, and I hope that he rectifies what I'm saying by telling me otherwise.

>___> So please. Don't jump my **** for thinking I insult people. You should know me better than that.

Smooth Criminal