Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Jack Kieser]

lmao, i love how your basing the opinions of the entire world on your group of friends, sorry but melee is an incredible casual game as well as a competetive game, MAYBE your friends didn't have the drive to play because YOU were a hardcore gamer, and they didn't feel like gettin their ***** kicked all over the place, and maybe you actually pulled them away from the game rather than trying to get them into it.

Look into what you quoted. Even though critical acclaim for Melee was overall good, one of the most cited 'flaws' of the game was its speed. It was stated by critics (and echoed by a lot of players) that the speed of the game made it too chaotic for many casuals to stay in for the long haul, and even made things like shielding (as far as people not vested in learning the intricacies of the system are concerned) redundant because there wasn't enough reaction time.

Sure, we know better/differently, but for a lot of people, this was a turn off. It was a sentiment that I saw in the people around me, sure, but also from what I observed.

 

[metaXzero]

Jack. Most people spreading the word would be considered casuals. You're not proving Melee to be an uncasual game.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack. Most people spreading the word would be considered casuals. You're not proving Melee to be an uncasual game.

When did I ever say it was uncasual? I simply said that we overplay how conductive it was to casual play. It is not the best causal game ever, a sentiment that has been (I feel, incorrectly) echoed for a while now. It was a good casual game, yes. But not as good as we make it out to be. Many of the design facets were not conductive to casual play. Speed was one. Repeated inclusion of elements like L-canceling was another.

Don't get me wrong; Melee can be (and was) played casually. No one is debating that, or at least I'm not.

 

[metaXzero]

This started because you said Melee was NOT a good game for casuals. And you saying hardcore gamers are the reason Melee was ze top selling GC game.

Are you taking back your own point?

 

[Jack Kieser]

This started because you said Melee was NOT a good game for casuals. And you saying hardcore gamers are the reason Melee was ze top selling GC game.

Are you taking back your own point?

*facepalm* You'd think I'd learn after 800 posts why I don't like debating over the internet, but I'm too dense for that.

I said it was 'decent' for casual play; decent isn't bad, it just isn't great. And I also said that hardcore gamers were a large part of the reason it sold well, which is (again, as far as financial institutions are concerned) true.

(For the record, I dislike internet debates because inflection of voice isn't present, as well as real-time reaction)

 

[Corigames]

Then what is a great game for casuals if not Melee?

..and God help me if you say Brawl.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Then what is a great game for casuals if not Melee?

..and God help me if you say Brawl.

Beats me. I don't play casual games. I guess Mario Party, maybe? Definitely Wii Sports. I'm certainly not a casual market expert, so I'm not gonna act like I know what the best casual game is. All I know is what tenants of game design are not conductive to casual play.

 

[metaXzero]

*sigh* I hate quoting single lines on a Wii but

TAKE THAT!

You know what? We need to stop saying that Melee was a good game for casuals, because it really wasn't.

You go on to retcon that as "decent" but the fact stands.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Melee was decent, at best, for casuals.

I apologize for being contradictory in the same post. The fact also stands that I said this, as well. So... yay? Don't know what to say past that, other than what I already have.

 

[Corigames]

You could say that Lucario is a homosexual adult-sized chihuahua and Link couldn't be bad *** even if he co-stared in a film with Bruce Willace.

 

[znintendotaku]

^ not agreed

flaming in realization that you lost
very mature

 

[Grunt]

You could say that Lucario is a homosexual adult-sized chihuahua and Link couldn't be bad *** even if he co-stared in a film with Bruce Willace.

Mango Sentinel.
**** THE KNICKS!

 

[Corigames]

It's no good if you put spaces in the "10char" spot >_>

Way to fail 08 dude.

 

[metaXzero]

Yeah. I don't know how to continue from here

But as I said, lots of casuals bought Melee (and spread the word), it was the highest selling GC game, and competitive Smash was largely unknown. So wouldn't that say Melee is a good casual game?

 

[Winston]

Why is znintedotaku a smash debater?

Why are we talking about whether melee is a good game for casuals?

Why is brawl a better game for casual players?

 

[znintendotaku]

just cuz...
why arent you?

 

[arrowhead]

Why is znintedotaku a smash debater?

anyone can be a smash debater. all you do is click on a bubble and wait to be let in

 

[Corigames]

I blame ADD for these discussions. I also blame the Internet for keyboard confidence. I bet half the people here wouldn't even try to insult people in real life, yet they think they have balls when they do it here.

Competitive:
It means to spend all your time debating about a game and not playing it.

 

[znintendotaku]

exactly...arrowhead...

 

[Skler]

I know tons of casuals who like Melee over Brawl, just as I know tons of casuals who like Brawl over Melee and a select few who like 64 over melee and brawl (i know right!?). God ****, you're all so silly. They're all awesome casual games, it's ****ing smash.

As far as competitiveness goes Melee kicks the crap out of Brawl and 64. Discuss. /getthreadbackontopic

 

[metaXzero]

^I hope this doesn't get misconstrued like my attempt...

 

[Winston]

Haha, I always thought you had to like, write something good and send it to one of the moderators to become a smash debater, and then you could post in debate hall O.o

I also assumed that smash debaters would do actual debating about smash...

I know tons of casuals who like Melee over Brawl, just as I know tons of casuals who like Brawl over Melee and a select few who like 64 over melee and brawl (i know right!?). God ****, you're all so silly. They're all awesome casual games, it's ****ing smash.

As far as competitiveness goes Melee kicks the crap out of Brawl and 64. Discuss. /getthreadbackontopic

We should discuss melee vs 64 a bit more, because it's not as clear-cut as melee vs brawl is.

64 hypertrophies most of the elements that melee advocates (that includes myself) cite as its virtues, such as combos, punishment, and skill gap.

I wouldn't say melee >>> 64 in terms of competitiveness. Melee has more options for movement and for DI, which is what I'd say puts it over the top. 64 is a **** good game for competitive play, though. The bit you wrote earlier about different playstyles being viable for each character is also applicable for 64. I can't even short hop properly in 64 because I use the control stick to jump (in all 3 games) or I play online using the keyboard, and yet I've developed a style that lets me play decently well. There are still tons of options in that game, and spacing and execution are incredibly important due to 0-death combos/gimps. It's almost like the entire game is space animals vs marth...

 

[Grunt]

I almost like 64 better than Melee. I get tired of Melee's defensive options a lot. I can't imagine what would happen if i were to go play Brawl right now.

 

[metaXzero]

Not to mention 64 has the most balanced cast (Thanks to its broken combos).

 

[Grunt]

Not to mention 64 has the most balanced cast (Thanks to its broken combos).

This was the argument i used on my friend.
"64 is the most balanced game."
-"WTF no it's not, it's a broken piece of ****."
"everyone has at least one 0-death combo, that makes it balanced."
-"Uh...i guess."

 

[Winston]

Wavedashing is too fun, though. That's what wins me over.

Also, probably the fact that you can theoretically be technical in melee using stickhopping >.>

And samus doesn't have 0-deaths D:... neither does link, though link is still far better than samus.

 

[Skler]

I almost get bored with all the 0-deaths in 64. I mean, 0-deaths are something special in Melee because they aren't actually supposed to happen (unless it's a wall infinite or wobbles), so they look really cool (no this doesn't make brawl combos cool, because the other player has to pretty much suck to be 0-deathed). In 64 as soon as kirby lands a utilt you pretty much know how it's going to end. The game is far too based on punishment, five mistakes and you lose the match. Melee is a bit more lenient and gave you a lot more to do (with dodges and a useful shield).

Anyways, back to Melee vs Brawl...

 

[thumbswayup]

Melee is the greatest game ever made.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BcTqsqybis0

For those of you who haven't seen our series, watch ep 4 after you see this. It's the best of all of them. Ep 1 sucks ***.

 

[Winston]

I almost get bored with all the 0-deaths in 64. I mean, 0-deaths are something special in Melee because they aren't actually supposed to happen (unless it's a wall infinite or wobbles), so they look really cool (no this doesn't make brawl combos cool, because the other player has to pretty much suck to be 0-deathed). In 64 as soon as kirby lands a utilt you pretty much know how it's going to end. The game is far too based on punishment, five mistakes and you lose the match. Melee is a bit more lenient and gave you a lot more to do (with dodges and a useful shield).

Anyways, back to Melee vs Brawl...

kirby is quite boring =\

Falcon, however, is just as epic as he is in melee.

Anyways, because the easy 0-deaths are so easy, you try and do creative/difficult/cool looking 0-deaths. However, it's true that if there really was a competitive scene, matches would not be as interesting as they are in our current state of "casual" high-level ssb. Playing to win does sometimes dictate doing the repetitive kirby/falcon combos or throw/edgeguarding. Melee is better overall; I just objected to you lumping 64 and brawl together in the same category of "gets kicked the crap out of by melee".

What else is there to talk about as far as Melee vs Brawl, anyway?

(at least until one of the brawl proponents that actually makes intelligent posts shows up again...)

 

[LOL_Master]

the dark knight is officially melee

 

[Proud_Smash_N00b]

the dark knight is officially melee

hahahahahahahahaha
best thing that came out since forever, makes sense

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I just came back from that Movie, honestly

Spoiler

the Joker's overall intellect and creativity and strategic prowess makes Army commanders seem like Brain Dead gorillas, and Twoface made a surprising apearance, I did not think I'd see him >_>.

 

[Corigames]

Batman: The Dark Knight

SPOILERS

Spoiler

The boat sinks, Jesus dies, Aeries kills Snape, and Peach gets kidnapped.

SPOILERS

 

[Reaver197]

The pencil.

It disappeared.

Joker for top tier.

 

[Mic_128]

Stay on topic.

 

[EC_Joey]

I don't see the point of debating which game is better for casual play. In the end, most of us are here because we are not casual players. Also, it's not right to make assumptions about a person if they like Brawl more. I know people who like Brawl more, but are not ignorant of Melee or how good of a game it is.



How about a magic trick? I'm going to make this pencil disappear.

TA-DA!!!

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

I just like that in Melee, there's a lot more variables, it's a lot faster, and you can combo (but it requires SKILL).

Back in the day, I remember when nobody I knew thought you could combo in Melee. But wow we were wrong.

Hmmmm... let's see... have our predictions about Brawl stayed on course?

Oh yeah! They have! It;s lame!

 

[thumbswayup]

This community deserves a better class of gaming, and Melee's gonna give it to em. You'll see, we'll show ya...

 

[LOL_Master]

Some people just enjoy brawl better because they don't have to work at anything to compete and can play stupidly without using his/her head

 

[Jack Kieser]

Some people just enjoy brawl better because they don't have to work at anything to compete and can play stupidly without using his/her head

I'll quote myself, because it's obvious it wasn't read enough.

*facepalm* Yes. Objection.

Why is it that people who enjoy playing Brawl are idiots, again? I never understood that. Almost universally since the Japanese release, people considered anyone who liked Brawl inferior to people who didn't like it, and I never got that. Someone please explain, without comparing Brawl to Melee in any way, what makes a person who enjoys Brawl any more of an idiot than anyone else.

Please.

If you can't, then I think the community as a whole would appreciate it if you stopped doing that.