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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

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skins2153

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RE HEHEHEHEHHEHHEeeeeeeeeee
I will agree that everything smash-related is awful, it just so happens that melee is LESS awful, if only because I can no longer do the awesome **** i never could do in the first place....



FYI EVERYONE should be changing their Avatar to something with the new JOKER....otherwise you are either blind or dumb.


WHY [are you all] SO SERIUS
 

gantrain05

Smash Master
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Zelda 1 wasn't hard... compared to 2 >_>

And Super Metroid is the best game ever, no opinion there.
i dunno, i kinda liked the original metroid, that game was a ***** to finish. but super metriod does kick serious ***, oh, and screw metroid prime 2, i hate that game with a passion.
 

LavisFiend

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I beat SM 25 times.

I **** you not.

I can actually do a speedrun while sleeping in my head and complete it.

That game is a frickin part of me, just like Earthbound and Secret of Mana is.

It's sickening, but that's all I had back in the day to play were those three games, so needless to say, I played them to the point that every little tidbit is forever burned into my mind.
 

Corigames

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I play through Super Metroid once a month, ritualistically, and sometimes more if I feel like trying out a new glitch or something.

**** good game. **** best game.
 

Skler

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I did reply to your post, I just didn't quote you directly. I only did that because my post was long enough already and adding that quote in before my reply would have made it massively long into the TL;DR levels. So, that's my reply.
I totally missed that post. This thread grows in spam WAY too fast.

The space animals do play in a similar way (the characters themselves), but the players using them are what makes them so different. I've played against aggressive Foxes, Campy Foxes, shine happy Foxes and all other fun types of Foxes, but in Brawl I rarely see somebody play a character in a unique way. Playstyles just don't seem to exist because aggressive styles are almost always punished, the only truly aggressive players seem to use Wario or GaW, and nobody camps with those two characters because they can't. You're either a campy (insert character here) or an aggressive Wario/GaW.

In Melee you had a ton of different styles with each character. I love that, and Brawl just doesn't make any one person seem like an individual with their own style.
 

Lovage 805

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Interesting point, Skler. There are many, many many styles of fox, of shiek and of marth. But how often do you see a player that totally stands out from others in that character. Honestly I'm thinking and the only person I can see is Psycho ******, who, basically invented snake and has an extremely different snake from any other player I've seen.
 

Skler

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Interesting point, Skler. There are many, many many styles of fox, of shiek and of marth. But how often do you see a player that totally stands out from others in that character. Honestly I'm thinking and the only person I can see is Psycho ******, who, basically invented snake and has an extremely different snake from any other player I've seen.
I see plenty of people who play top tiers differently. Ever played Drephen? He plays a strange Sheik that works really well. Even non-pros have fun variations of each character, you rarely see two players who use the same character the same way in Melee. In brawl it's the exact opposite.

I watched two different psycho ****** matches for a while (I can't actually sit through entire Brawl matches, they bore the **** out of me) and fail to see how he's different from other snake players. I see him do something different every once in a while but he gets punished for doing those things **** near every time. Whenever he shoots the missile he gets punished, whenever he jumps out of shield to bair it doesn't get the kill when a turn around utilt would have gotten it, he does different things that don't work as well as the "usual" response. When he does interesting things it isn't effective, which is exactly my point. Brawl hinders creativity, it's limiting engine forces you to play a certain way if you want to win.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=miy3C4xjQHg is a prime example of being creative failing and the ftilt succeeding. Look at him try and use those missiles and get hit for it. Watch his ftilt succeed where innovation failed, watch creativity be crushed by a game with strict boundaries!
 

The Halloween Captain

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Has there been any exploration into unique styles for every character? Or is the game filled with copy-cats because new effective styles have yet to be discovered? Or is the inherent individuality of every character been a limiting factor for deviating tactics on a character already possessing a totally unique playstyle?
 

DDmaster13

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Skler, the point you make about creativity is valid, but there isn't enough proof that inventing new strategies in Brawl automatically screws you over. What you gave was more an example of what normally happens when people take risks-they suffer consequences. Without trial and error in your playing style, you will never become better. I believe that Psycho ****** was simply experimenting. You have to screw up a few games to become great in one way or another. Brawl should not be seen as a lost cause, where everyone is too afraid to escape their comfort zone in order to learn new techniques. The game is still new, and people like Psycho ****** are a benefit to the metagame because they are willing to dig deeper into the game to find more ways to win.
 

AlphaZealot

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First let me say I play Link, the hardest tech I have to do is wavedash, and I don't even need to do that much because Link's wavedash is garbage. So I play a slow, defensive character in Melee. I love playing defensive and I can't play very fast. Why do I like melee more than Brawl? Because Melee lets you play at your own pace. Brawl forces you to play slow and defensive.
So, if a faster game existed than Melee, Melee would in turn force you to play at a slower more defensive pace? Is that your logic, that a slower game forces you to play at the games pace and not your own? I know I play at my own pace when I'm winning, conversely I'm playing to my opponent when I'm losing.

Melee is whatever you want it to be, the better player sets the pace because they're capable of doing so. It's great to force a Fox to play slowly by limiting his options, Brawl does that for you because the game itself limits your options.
I don't understand. Everything is RELATIVE, if you are Ike playing Sonic, the game isn't slowing the pace for you, its your job to do that, its your job to stop Sonic, just like it was Link's task to stick it to Fox in Melee. You also don't specify what "options" are gone, espcially since you don't mention wave dashing, pretty much the only option of relevance that was removed. Hit stun =/= options, so I'll nip that in the bud already. Hit stun = combos, combos = no options for one player and near free hits for the other.

Brawl is whatever you want it to be.

In Melee the player actually stands out, you get amazed at how good certain people are and it's exciting. People who use the same character have drastically different play styles that both work.
The player also stands out in Brawl. The only difference is some people in Melee could lose tournaments but get noticed for their technical skill.

"ZOMG YOU MOVE YOUR FINGERS SO FAST! How did you place?"

"Last, I lost to two Peachs"

"Oh...ZOMG YOU MOVE YOUR FINGERS FAST though"

In Brawl everyone who uses the same character (and is good) has the same cookie-cutter style. I just don't see how people can like a game that forces you to play a certain way when there's a much better option available. Playing Brawl is like doing a color by numbers game, playing Melee is like drawing your own picture.
This ones a funny argument, espcially considering the number of players who copied and pasted Bombsoldiers Falco, then repasted wth PC Chris's Falco, or the number of people who copied M2K's Marth/Fox, or Ken's Marth. Great stuff gets shown off by great players then done all over the place by everyone, including almost great players (Husband from Melee). You still don't specify how Brawl makes you play any specific way as well, at least no more than Melee makes you play a specific way.

If you want to see different play styles in Brawl, just choose two Diddy Kong videos and watch. Or pick any Japanese video and compare it to any US video.

So many people will never appreciate how amazing Melee was because they got so used to being forced into their opponent's pace that they assumed it was the only way to play. It's a shame.
Apparently, your getting forced into a pace by the game...thats a shame.
 

Skler

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If a faster game existed than Melee people would have to evolve to move their hands faster. If we don't have perfect control in Melee a faster game is **** near pointless. You are limited by yourself in Melee. Brawl limits you by being really slow (you can't play fast enough to overwhelm an opponent with speed, in Melee this was possible with tech skill) and removing options (list ganon's viable options from a shorthop in Melee then compare them to his viable options from a shorthop in Brawl)

I didn't feel the need to explain all the options Melee gives compared to the options in Brawl. Everyone pretty much accepts Melee has more options, because of WDing, dash dancing and the ability to use any aerial without too much lag (there were some exceptions like Link's dair). Melee has far more options than Brawl, you should know that because it's fact, not opinion.

Brawl isn't what you want it to be. I want it to be less of a campfest, but trying to break out of that with the character I want doesn't work. In Melee I can not camp and still stand a decent chance, but in Brawl not camping tends to result in loss (unless I'm playing against trashy players).

Sonic doesn't have a fast pace just because he can run fast. That's like saying Captain Falcon has a faster pace than Fox because of his run speed. Pace =/= run speed. Diddy has a fast pace in Brawl (you know, compared to other brawl things) but it's still so slow that you won't be destroying anyone with blistering speed. Brawl really does slow you down.

Tons of players did try to copy successful play styles, but you miss the point completely. The fact is there is more than one style that works with each character in Melee. Obviously people will imitate the good styles, but there are still other ones out there that work. In Brawl everyone plays very similar to each other because you don't really have a choice if you want to win.

I thought psycho ****** was a good example of Brawl forcing you to play a certain way. Did you notice (in the video I linked to) that whenever he tried something new/different he got punished for it, but when he stuck with the tilts, jabs and nade spam he did well? That's because Snakes play by camping it up with tilts, jabs and nade spam.

The Japanese play Brawl much more aggressively, but we can't tell if it's better or not because we haven't seen their best players against our best players. If they can beat our best players using an aggressive style then that's great, brawl can be played aggressively. If they lose, looks like everyone has to play the same way to stand a chance.

As far as Diddy goes show me two diddy players with different styles that don't suck. It's just going to be a lot of banana spam and dash attacks with a few glide tosses unless one of them is terrible. Maybe somebody will face **** snake's recovery, but it'll all be the **** same.

It is a shame that Brawl is so limiting, why bother playing it? I'd love to get tons of options and different ways to win, but instead I'm forced to play defensive and camp for all I'm worth. This is why I play Melee.

I didn't feel like quoting because that would make this post even more enormous. It's already pretty **** big.
 

EC_Joey

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If a faster game existed than Melee people would have to evolve to move their hands faster. If we don't have perfect control in Melee a faster game is **** near pointless. You are limited by yourself in Melee. Brawl limits you by being really slow (you can't play fast enough to overwhelm and opponent with speed, in Melee this was possible with tech skill) and removing options (list ganon's viable options from a shorthop in Melee then compare them to his viable options from a shorthop in Brawl)

I didn't feel the need to explain all the options Melee gives compared to the options in Brawl. Everyone pretty much accepts Melee has more options, because of WDing, dash dancing and the ability to use any aerial without too much lag (there were some exceptions like Link's dair). Melee has far more options than Brawl, you should know that because it's fact, not opinion.

Brawl isn't what you want it to be. I want it to be less of a campfest, but trying to break out of that with the character I want doesn't work. In Melee I can not camp and still stand a decent chance, but in Brawl not camping tends to result in loss (unless I'm playing against trashy players).

Sonic doesn't have a fast pace just because he can run fast. That's like saying Captain Falcon has a faster pace than Fox because of his run speed. Pace =/= run speed. Diddy has a fast pace in Brawl (you know, compared to other brawl things) but it's still so slow that you won't be destroying anyone with blistering speed. Brawl really does slow you down.

Tons of players did try to copy successful play styles, but you miss the point completely. The fact is there is more than one style that works with each character in Melee. Obviously people will imitate the good styles, but there are still other ones out there that work. In Brawl everyone plays very similar to each other because you don't really have a choice if you want to win.

I thought psycho ****** was a good example of Brawl forcing you to play a certain way. Did you notice (in the video I linked to) that whenever he tried something new/different he got punished for it, but when he stuck with the tilts, jabs and nade spam he did well? That's because Snakes play by camping it up with tilts, jabs and nade spam.

The Japanese play Brawl much more aggressively, but we can't tell if it's better or not because we haven't seen their best players against our best players. If they can beat our best players using an aggressive style then that's great, brawl can be played aggressively. If they lose, looks like everyone has to play the same way to stand a chance.

As far as Diddy goes show me two diddy players with different styles that don't suck. It's just going to be a lot of banana spam and dash attacks with a few glide tosses unless one of them is terrible. Maybe somebody will face **** snake's recovery, but it'll all be the **** same.

It is a shame that Brawl is so limiting, why bother playing it? I'd love to get tons of options and different wants to win, but instead I'm forced to play defensive and camp for all I'm worth. This is why I play Melee.

I didn't feel like quoting because that would make this post even more enormous. It's already pretty **** big.
Sky you rock my world.
 

znintendotaku

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why cant you people just be SMASH fans instead of melee or brawl fans.....

this thread should be closed

brawl/melee is like pokemon ruby,saphire/diamond,pearl....in ruby everything was fast paced (EVERYTHING) and it looked and played decent... so when diamond came out they slowed it down and it ended up looking and playing better...i prefer diamond but my friend still plays ruby....sure brawl isnt as fast and so what if melee had looked poor...SO WHAT....get over the fact that people prefer diferent games and have different opinions
why dont all of you just agree on the fact the SMASH is a good game and stick to your personal preferance.....

mine so happens to be Brawl, whats yours?
"I may not agree with what you say but ill defend to the death your right to say it"
 

KosukeKGA

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why cant you people just be SMASH fans instead of melee or brawl fans.....

this thread should be closed

brawl/melee is like pokemon ruby,saphire/diamond,pearl....in ruby everything was fast paced (EVERYTHING) and it looked and played decent... so when diamond came out they slowed it down and it ended up looking and playing better...i prefer diamond but my friend still plays ruby....sure brawl isnt as fast and so what if melee had looked poor...SO WHAT....get over the fact that people prefer diferent games and have different opinions
why dont all of you just agree on the fact the SMASH is a good game and stick to your personal preferance.....

mine so happens to be Brawl, whats yours?
"I may not agree with what you say but ill defend to the death your right to say it"
Tell your friend to get out of that **** well he lives in because if he'd rather play R/S/E over D/P then LOL

I bet he doesn't even play Pokemon competitively. And I bet you haven't played Melee competitively either.

 

-Wolfy-

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why cant you people just be SMASH fans instead of melee or brawl fans.....

this thread should be closed

brawl/melee is like pokemon ruby,saphire/diamond,pearl....in ruby everything was fast paced (EVERYTHING) and it looked and played decent... so when diamond came out they slowed it down and it ended up looking and playing better...i prefer diamond but my friend still plays ruby....sure brawl isnt as fast and so what if melee had looked poor...SO WHAT....get over the fact that people prefer diferent games and have different opinions
why dont all of you just agree on the fact the SMASH is a good game and stick to your personal preferance.....

mine so happens to be Brawl, whats yours?
"I may not agree with what you say but ill defend to the death your right to say it"
Holy crap. This thread doesn't need to be closed, but someones ability to post needs to be ended.

Your emotional plea has nothing to do with the topic of the thread. Please make a thread about how we should all just learn to get along and like whatever we want to, because the very specific topic is the debate on which is more competitive/the definition of competitive.
 

znintendotaku

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Tell your friend to get out of that **** well he lives in because if he'd rather play R/S/E over D/P then LOL

I bet he doesn't even play Pokemon competitively. And I bet you haven't played Melee competitively either.

no i havent, you know you dont have to play every game competitivly melee just bored and frustrated the crap out of me :(
not because i sucked (i wasnt that bad with Y.link) but because
1: the AI blows
2: there was little to do when you beat it 100%
3: i got the game 3 years after its release and all my friends were way better

i wish i still had it so i can see for my self the fighting differences...(i think i gave it to my older brother, maybe)
its still a great game, i just prefer brawl...

(flame not intended)
(flame not required)
 

arrowhead

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no i havent, you know you dont have to play every game competitivly melee just bored and frustrated the crap out of me :(
not because i sucked (i wasnt that bad with Y.link) but because
1: the AI blows
2: there was little to do when you beat it 100%
3: i got the game 3 years after its release and all my friends were way better

i wish i still had it so i can see for my self the fighting differences...(i think i gave it to my older brother, maybe)
its still a great game, i just prefer brawl...

(flame not intended)
(flame not required)
no, you pretty much suck. hard.
 

Zankoku

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no i havent, you know you dont have to play every game competitivly melee just bored and frustrated the crap out of me :(
not because i sucked (i wasnt that bad with Y.link) but because
1: the AI blows
2: there was little to do when you beat it 100%
3: i got the game 3 years after its release and all my friends were way better
In other words, it was no fun because you had nobody to play with. Which goes for any multiplayer-based game, really.
 

znintendotaku

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In other words, it was no fun because you had nobody to play with. Which goes for any multiplayer-based game, really.
what? no what i meant by that was that they were way better than me thats all....baka...

onata wa nihongo ga wakaremasu ka?
onata wa jouzu jaremasu sem...
boku wa nihongo ga sukoshi wakaremasu...
 

metaXzero

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znintendotaku says (in somewhat broken Japanese)...

"Do you understand Japanese?"
"Do you (crappy sentence)"
"I understand a little bit of Japanese"

.......What was the point in saying that?
 

Corigames

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no i havent, you know you dont have to play every game competitivly melee just bored and frustrated the crap out of me :(
not because i sucked (i wasnt that bad with Y.link) but because
1: the AI blows
2: there was little to do when you beat it 100%
3: i got the game 3 years after its release and all my friends were way better

i wish i still had it so i can see for my self the fighting differences...(i think i gave it to my older brother, maybe)
its still a great game, i just prefer brawl...
So, you don't like the game because everyone else was better than you at it? You had no desire to get better and didn't push yourself at all to even reach their un-scrubly level? You haven't played in over several years? Then you are going to say that you prefer Brawl? Ok.

It makes sense. You have no competitive drive so you are going to play the game that takes less requirements to be good. I'll give you a hint, play Snake or Mk and you'll beat all of your friends. Go ahead. Learn them through the boards and show them just how unstoppable you are! You'll be the best a Super Smash Character Select.

I don't have to speak Japanese to tell you straight up... idiot.
 

-Wolfy-

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Someone call Samurai Panda for great justice. We have a weeaboo on our hands.

In broken Japanese at that.

But to address his points, you just aren't a competitive player and help bolster the points of all the competitive players who maintain the reason Brawl is so popular is that it nurtures and shelters the players who weren't able to "catch up" with the meta game in Melee.
 

The Halloween Captain

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Someone call Samurai Panda for great justice. We have a weeaboo on our hands.

In broken Japanese at that.

But to address his points, you just aren't a competitive player and help bolster the points of all the competitive players who maintain the reason Brawl is so popular is that it nurtures and shelters the players who weren't able to "catch up" with the meta game in Melee.
So now that all those "sheltered players" have the ability to catch up...
 

MPH Deku

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Came into the topic for the halibut, and saw this red statement:

"Leave Brawl Alone: Brawl Supporters Never Make Any Good Points Ever"

Blatent and insulting use of absolutes is blatent and insulting.

Besides, Melee players can make blanket statements as well. You need to make your intro post a little more unbiased.
 

Clai

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Came into the topic for the halibut, and saw this red statement:

"Leave Brawl Alone: Brawl Supporters Never Make Any Good Points Ever"

Blatent and insulting use of absolutes is blatent and insulting.

Besides, Melee players can make blanket statements as well. You need to make your intro post a little more unbiased.
I don't want to say that you just made Scar's point for him... but I don't have a choice. You just made Scar's point for him. Most of the time Brawl supporters do counter legitimate points made by Melee supporters with insufficient, absolute, or just plain wrong statements. Melee supporters make blanket statements and the like as well, but the ratio of actual debaters:pointless idiots for Melee is much higher than what we have in the Brawl population. If you want to prove Scar's point wrong, do what the rest of the Brawl debaters did and make your own points supporting Brawl. Just make sure they're detailed and accurate.

In another note, I've given up on online mode. I actually do well against campy players and characters; but put me up with someone aggressive online and I'm done. I'm just so roasted with online lag when I have a Sheik/Peach/Falco up my backside and I'm getting barraged by 14 instant tilts/aerials/grabs and I can't do anything 'cause Cannot-dorf's TOO F***ING SLOW!
 

LavisFiend

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znintendotaku says (in somewhat broken Japanese)...

"Do you understand Japanese?"
"Do you (crappy sentence)"
"I understand a little bit of Japanese"

.......What was the point in saying that?
I am not talking about his pathetic attempt at using google translate to make himself seem billingual.

I am referring to that ******** word Baka, pretty much the native cry of the yellow bellied weeaboo, who seem to have migrated from the darkest corners of the earth and basements of moms to conglomerate in modern america.

...It doesen't help that the guy has the friggin word "otaku" in his **** name.

If he knew what Otaku REALLY meant, he wouldn't dare label himself as such.
 
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