Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[illboyzeus]

this post = epic fail.

once again a brawl supporter offering no evidence into why the argument is not valid. Brawl has reached the apex of what will come. Nothing will change except for hacking the very psychics to add hit stun. There is no punishment factor in brawl, no real tension, it is inferior to melee in so many ways. Now I think it is fun, in friendlies and such. And as a game alone it is good for so much there is too do. But we are talking competitiveness here. It just astounds me how everyone arguably excepts that melee is the better game for tournies, yet we play this instead. And all the supporters have this pipe dream that some holy tech will be discovered to make the game interesting. The **** is laughable, pretty much acknowledging the game as it is is bull****.

There is only one viable playstyle for most of the characters, you see one meta, you've seen them all. The best player in brawl comes down to who can use the same strategy better. In melee no two players were exact, and many playstyles could be used. If you are an aggressive player in brawl you better be pyschic or just that much better than the other player.

overall
brawl=good game, terrible competitive factor
melee= good game, incredible competitive factor

 

[-Wolfy-]

GG gantrain, maybe next time. Good post illboy.

 

[Jack Kieser]

You just play Brawl because it's easier and you're too lazy to even give Melee a try competitively.

A. If you didn't mean me in particular, then you should have said 'people' and 'they're', respectively.

B. Inferior in what context? Just saying that it is inferior isn't even correct. Take Sonic '06, for instance. It is poorly programmed and has overly-long load times, but I can't really definitively complain about the story or the general fun factor because that is personal taste. I think Sonic '06 has a terrible story, but to someone who writes Sonic furry fanfics it's a great story. I may think the level design is disjointed, but someone with ADD may find it right up their alley.

If you have technical reasons to dislike Brawl, then I will probably agree with you. But to say that either game is totally inferior to the other (outside of technical issues) is, to be frank, asinine.

 

[thumbswayup]

If you have technical reasons to dislike Brawl, then I will probably agree with you. But to say that either game is totally inferior to the other (outside of technical issues) is, to be frank, asinine.

It really isn't. Brawl has destroyed everything that we've come to love about Smash. L-canceling, skilled edgeguarding, and comboing. All three of those elements were in both SSB64 and SSBM. Brawl didn't just remove L-canceling, it made edgeguarding completely pointless and even more dangerous to the egdeguarder. Ever try to edgeguard M2k's Metaknight? You won't live.

With the hitstun reduced to virtually zero, comboing is non-existant. I like how M2k summed up Brawl the first time I played him in it, "Smash has become trading hits". THAT'S ALL IT IS NOW, hit and run. Jesus, I main DIDDY KONG and I lose a lot of my matches because I'm too **** aggressive and don't sit back and wait for them to approach me like I should. It's what Brawl promotes that sickening overall. It rewards campers/spammers. It kills the edgeguarders and gives a HUGE advantage to the ones returning to the stage.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Brawl has destroyed everything that we've come to love about Smash. L-canceling, skilled edgeguarding, and comboing.

You really don't see this? Come on, don't make me lose respect for you. Those are qualitative judgements. One could easily say that the fast-paced nature, the crazy combos, and the techinical requirements of Melee made the game less fun, and for that person, he'd be perfectly justified in saying that, just like you are justified in saying that's what you liked about Melee.

But just because that person didn't like those qualities, that doesn't make his opinion less valid. I really shouldn't have to be saying this.

 

[Clai]

On the contrary.... you just proved my point for me. You can't play the game and not come to the very conclusion you have just reached yourself. You said this because u know it is true deep down and such things you only admit to yourself and mabye your gf after you've just had a long day at work.

I'm not bashing the game because its slow ... and takes patience.... im bashing it because its simply a bad game. I love chess and checkers and look at all the tech skill and speed in those games...

Nintendo does fail because they have no vision when it comes to competetive gaming. They simply insult our intelligence with this pre-school learning tool they entitled "Brawl." Making brawl after having a great game like melee is like making halo 3 into a golden eye with better graphics ... because halo 2 was too competetive and fast paced. Nintendo is a child's company... i hate to admit it myself.... because i wanted to believe they were innovative and original.... rofl yea right. Myself, jsut like all the other melee players who dislike brawl, wanted brawl to be better than melee in every way possible. I gave the game a chance and still hold some sort of optimism for the game.. .but its not looking good. When comparing the 2 brawl pales in comparison to melee, the latter being truely one of the most underrated fighting games of our time and truely a miracle of greatness from that long dead video game maker we all know as nintendo... gg.

the end... brawl < than melee .... there just is no debating anything otherwise...

You misunderstand me. I was trying to imply that Brawl would be viewed as "a preschool toddler game" because Melee veterans swamp the Brawl board and say about how "dumb, shallow, dull, inferior and broken" it is. Other people's opinions go a long way in the decision process when deciding which two games to play, and since Brawl is being thoroughly trashed, the outlook is not good.

Nintendo is not making games with the competitive scene in mind. Why do you think the company comes out with real preschool-type games and such that take thirty minutes to beat? At times, they are completely innovative and original [See: Super Mario Galaxy], but those times are now few and far in between as it caters to a kid and old adult audience. If it really was Sakurai's intentions to take out the most competitive features of Melee to make it friendlier to young kids, then that it is a sad fate for competitive gamers. But what choice do we have now? Most of the Melee competitive scene, it seems, is trying to revive Melee to its original glory. Others, like me (yes, I did play Melee competitively), are going to try to make Brawl as competitive as it can, even with the changes done to it.

In the gaming competitive light, yes, I agree, Melee is superior to Brawl. But Brawl has features that can allow players who just don't have the right mentality for Melee to thrive in it's competitive scene. In a sense, since there are huge amounts of people that do have either a Melee mentality or a Brawl mentality, both competitive scenes are going to do great.

And thank you for the wording for this post. It makes replying so much easier when you take a more objective look into the situations instead of cramming loaded statements into a post.

@Skler: I understand your feelings. To tell you the truth, I really feel that all the space animals in Melee play close to the same way as well. All the other Melee characters, yeah, they're really divergent, but the space animals always felt cookie-cutter when I played them. The worst part of it is: I knew that they would play the same way, and I still couldn't stop them because my brain-finger connection simply can't register fast enough to do anything about it.

Hopefully (and yes, I do have a really optimist outlook on Brawl, mainly because I want to fit into the competitive scene), people will figure out how to get past the cookie-cutter style and the ones who get beaten will develop innovate strategies to get past the hurdle. The increased amount of characters helps to achieve that, but we just aren't at the point where the cookie cutter registers as a hurdle that divides the truly competitive and the ones who just can't reach that point. At this time, the bar is way too high for that to happen, but my hopes is that people improve enough to get past it.

Clai, can I have your babies?

As awesome as this statement is... that's just creepy.

 

[Jack Kieser]

As awesome as this statement is... that's just creepy.

Haha... I'm just kidding... or am I? O_O

*begins stalking Clai*

 

[gantrain05]

Back up your reasoning.

too lazy, no sleep, i might get to it later, g'night.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Round of applause, everyone.

 

[Jack Kieser]

too lazy, no sleep, i might get to it later, g'night.

No johns.

10excuses

 

[LavisFiend]

Hey guys....I seem to have a problem with something.

You see....it is one of my GEARS....and it is GUILTY of being extremely competitive.

What do I do? =(

 

[illboyzeus]

guilty gear is the most balance competitive fighter I've ever played...

But this concept that brawl is not more than a preschool party game is funny. If it isn't then what is it. It surely wasn't made with the competitive player in mind, or to greatly reward practice and skill. My biggest complaint is that everyone is searching for some heavenly tech, admitting the game as it is is not good for competition. To everyone who don't want to jump on the melee boat late, john more plz. When I first started I was a noob, a very bad player. But over the years of playing traveling, practice, going against anyone I could, I improved my game so much I was considered one of the top three in my state(MN). So for all you who say it's too late to start playing a better game, IT IS NOT. When I played melee I could see my mistakes, my ways to improve. If I got owned it felt good, since I knew I could improve more.

Everyone I play tells me I'm one of the most technical players they have ever seen, I know the inner workings of melee like the palm of my hand. I dislike how in brawl I can go read about a tech, go practice it for a couple minutes, and have it down pact. Where is the reward for practice? dedication? there is none... It all about who has more patience and can play gayer. Well, nothing wrong with that, if you like fighting games like that, but for me, I've played guilty gear, capcom vs. snk, sf3, vf4-5. And in all of them there is a possibility to mold your own playstyle, be it aggressive, defensive, a mix. Brawl does not really allow this. It's defensive or play metaknight.

I don't know how dumbing down the entire system makes the game more competitive, cuz hell it is. Anything with two players is competitive. But just think for a moment about what the average brawl match consists of. camping, tilts, jabs, a lot of shielding. that brawl in nutshell. And don't get the misconception I haven't been to a tourney for it, I have went to a few and fared fairly well for not really caring one way or the other. I have witnessed the strats used firsthand, and guess what they are **** effective. Someone I knew asked for advice about how to use snake, and everyone told him to shield, ftilt, utilt to kill and camp by cooking nades. guess what, that is really good advice to how to play snake.
That's how simple this game is, and I for one am appalled that we are leaving the vastly more COMPETITIVE melee behind for it.

And to all the bright eyed brawl newcomers, I'm sorry to tell you but the melee vets still dominate, sure you can a find a few new guys who are doing well. But for the most part it is still our game. We understand spacing and how to adapt to situations and such. I don't even own brawl but I can pick pit and spam arrows and correctly space my aerials and tilts, and pull off quite a few wins. And that is just because I was so good at melee. So you see, Why invest time and training in brawl, when you can play melee, and become better at both at the same time.

I know my post seems full of hate, but look at the information and not the tone, and tell me there is not truth in it...

 

[Zankoku]

Play Melty Blood.

 

[metaXzero]

Just wanted to add again that none of the Smash games were designed with a competitive mindset. But Brawl was designed with an anti-competitive mindset.

 

[MidnightBliss]

Hey guys....I seem to have a problem with something.

You see....it is one of my GEARS....and it is GUILTY of being extremely competitive.

What do I do? =(

Lol,you deserve a high-five for that one.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Can someone tell me how to quit being grasped?

A cookie to anyone who knows what character specific board thats from, or which notorious troll was involved.

 

[LOL_Master]

how to quit???

 

[Zjiin]

LOL @ this ridiculousness.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

i compete wif mai frendz 2 c hu ken tuch teh mozt nakid 4N1M41Z in n inapropriat way lulz onli kuz we liek teh nakid fele nd tey r sexi

so tht iz wut kompetein iz u no?

......this is why people hate 08 posters.......

 

[metaXzero]

^Wasn't this guy banned?

 

[Skler]

Why is it like this? It's because everyone is ramped up on sugar and won't be satisfied unless they have perfect control over every bit of space with no fewer than 17 button commands every second. You know that people today are messed up when the announcers from the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest say that everybody today is ADD. So when a game comes along with a few limitations and requires bits of patience and takes more than 90 seconds to complete, they spit on it and won't stop until every group of people within close proximity starts spitting on it too.

Basically, I'm not going to stop arguing until people accept that Melee is a technical, fast-paced, and offensive game while Brawl is a strenous, patient, and defensive game; that there is a community that likes and embraces one type of game and not necessarily the other, stop hurling useless insults at each other, and co-exist in peace.

First let me say I play Link, the hardest tech I have to do is wavedash, and I don't even need to do that much because Link's wavedash is garbage. So I play a slow, defensive character in Melee. I love playing defensive and I can't play very fast. Why do I like melee more than Brawl? Because Melee lets you play at your own pace. Brawl forces you to play slow and defensive. Melee is whatever you want it to be, the better player sets the pace because they're capable of doing so. It's great to force a Fox to play slowly by limiting his options, Brawl does that for you because the game itself limits your options.

In Melee the player actually stands out, you get amazed at how good certain people are and it's exciting. People who use the same character have drastically different play styles that both work. In Brawl everyone who uses the same character (and is good) has the same cookie-cutter style. I just don't see how people can like a game that forces you to play a certain way when there's a much better option available. Playing Brawl is like doing a color by numbers game, playing Melee is like drawing your own picture.

Edit: So many people will never appreciate how amazing Melee was because they got so used to being forced into their opponent's pace that they assumed it was the only way to play. It's a shame.

I'd love it if somebody would actually respond to one of my posts.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

I'd love it if somebody would actually respond to one of my posts.

I would, but I'm actually agreeing with you here >_>.

 

[metaXzero]

^..........well their's your response Skler

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You know, no one has ever responded well to my primary rational for Brawl being the superior (though not necesarily better) competitive game - which is, Brawl is more competitively viable than melee in its current state because it has a larger enthusiastic competitive scene than melee.

 

[metaXzero]

You know, no one has ever responded well to my primary rational for Brawl being the superior (though not necesarily better) competitive game - which is, Brawl is more competitively viable than melee in its current state because it has a larger enthusiastic competitive scene than melee.

Because of newness alone. Whether that will last is yet to be seen (I doubt it).

And just ignore that J4K3 freak. I'm hoping he gets banned soon.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

no, Jaky.

You know, no one has ever responded well to my primary rational for Brawl being the superior (though not necesarily better) competitive game - which is, Brawl is more competitively viable than melee in its current state because it has a larger enthusiastic competitive scene than melee.

I should be more specific. A viable competitive sceen, as I see it, is made up of many, enthusiastic participants. Since there are more people who play Brawl tournaments, and more people willing to host Brawl tournaments, the competitive scene in Brawl strikes me as superior to that of melee. Also, because Brawl's fans have these qualities over melee fans, the competitive scene for Brawl strikes me as more viable, as Brawl tournaments satisfy the competitive interests of more Smash fans than melee tournaments.

EDIT: Brawl is newer than melee. This will never change however, so Brawl will always possess this edge over melee's competitive scene. Also, Brawl is recognized currently as the easier game to pick up, as experienced Brawlers will always have less total experience than experienced meleers, due to the fact that melee is an older game with very long-time fans. So most new players will support Brawl's meta-game over that of melee.

 

[flyinfilipino]

I should be more specific. A viable competitive sceen, as I see it, is made up of many, enthusiastic participants. Since there are more people who play Brawl tournaments, and more people willing to host Brawl tournaments, the competitive scene in Brawl strikes me as superior to that of melee. Also, because Brawl's fans have these qualities over melee fans, the competitive scene for Brawl strikes me as more viable, as Brawl tournaments satisfy the competitive interests of more Smash fans than melee tournaments.

It's only been a few months....

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Read the EDIT section.

I should be more specific. A viable competitive sceen, as I see it, is made up of many, enthusiastic participants. Since there are more people who play Brawl tournaments, and more people willing to host Brawl tournaments, the competitive scene in Brawl strikes me as superior to that of melee. Also, because Brawl's fans have these qualities over melee fans, the competitive scene for Brawl strikes me as more viable, as Brawl tournaments satisfy the competitive interests of more Smash fans than melee tournaments.

EDIT: Brawl is newer than melee. This will never change however, so Brawl will always possess this edge over melee's competitive scene. Also, Brawl is recognized currently as the easier game to pick up, as experienced Brawlers will always have less total experience than experienced meleers, due to the fact that melee is an older game with very long-time fans. So most new players will support Brawl's meta-game over that of melee.

 

[metaXzero]

Because of newness and simplicity. It's the most recent Smash. But I wonder will it maintain it as time goes...

I think this thread was made thinking of the quality of competition versus how many people play.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Read the EDIT section.

We don't know if Brawl has reached its prime yet. If you're going to compare it to Melee, you'd have to compare Brawl at its prime to Melee at its prime (if that makes sense).

 

[The Halloween Captain]

We don't know if Brawl has reached its prime yet. If you're going to compare it to Melee, you'd have to compare Brawl at its prime to Melee at its prime (if that makes sense).

It's not important whether or not Brawl has reached its prime (although with only a couple weeks in Europe, I doubt it). The past is unimportant as it will never happen again. All that truely matter is the present (and somewhat the future).

Presently, Brawl's competitive community is large than melee's, and more people are willing to host a Brawl tournament than a melee one. That means at the current time, Brawl's competitive community is easier to maintain than melee's, making the game more competitively viable than melee.

 

[flyinfilipino]

It's not important whether or not Brawl has reached its prime (although with only a couple weeks in Europe, I doubt it). The past is unimportant as it will never happen again. All that truely matter is the present (and somewhat the future).

Presently, Brawl's competitive community is large than melee's, and more people are willing to host a Brawl tournament than a melee one. That means at the current time, Brawl's competitive community is easier to maintain than melee's, making the game more competitively viable than melee.

You're really all about the here and now, aren't you?

 

[Corigames]

You know, no one has ever responded well to my primary rational for Brawl being the superior (though not necesarily better) competitive game - which is, Brawl is more competitively viable than melee in its current state because it has a larger enthusiastic competitive scene than melee.

1944 Germany > Paradise with a lower population?

 

[metaXzero]

Brawl is more competitive solely on its newness and simplicity. The quality of the competitiveness (which I think Scar was thinking of when he made this thread) is horribly lacking.

 

[Corigames]

I'm getting a migraine from reading your posts dude. Seriously... it hurts.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You're really all about the here and now, aren't you?

There is little else.

1944 Germany > Paradise with a lower population?

First off, the people of Germany loved Hitler, in spite of his hourendous actions and warcrimes, because Hitler rebuilt Germany into a world power after decades of depression. While I happen to disagree with their opinions at that era, your responce was intended to shock people rather than as a direct legitimate responce to my comments.

Brawl is more competitive solely on its newness and simplicity. The quality of the competitiveness (which I think Scar was thinking of when he made this thread) is horribly lacking.

This doesn't make melee an easier game to hold a major tournament in than Brawl. What should be is not what is. People are more interested in the newer game than the older one, and Brawl will, in spite of the opinions of the melee activists, remain more popular than melee right up until SSB4 is released.

 

[flyinfilipino]

Brawl will, in spite of the opinions of the melee activists, remain more popular than melee right up until SSB4 is released.

Duh...

10char

 

[metaXzero]

.....Or the metagame will stagnate, n00bs move onto new things, and Brawl attendence strinks to where Melee is. One or the other.

 

[Corigames]

First off, the people of Germany loved Hitler, in spite of his hourendous actions and warcrimes, because Hitler rebuilt Germany into a world power after decades of depression. While I happen to disagree with their opinions at that era, your responce was intended to shock people rather than as a direct legitimate responce to my comments.

Because my posts has nothing to do with hive mind always being bad. When has doing everything the majority is doing been good? You should always have variety and Brawl is muscling out Melee's competitive scene even though almost anyone can agree it is the better game for competitive play. Why? Because the lower class citizens (the new people) are persuaded by Hitler (Sakurai) to get rid of the Jews (Melee), because they ruined everything (AT's, glitces, exploits). And, just because you are being told and a lot of people are doing it doesn't mean you should.

I took Holocaust class in high school, I know a thing or two about Hitler and WWII. Yeah, the statement is suppose to shock you, but does that detract from what was said at all?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

.....Or the metagame will stagnate, n00bs move onto new things, and Brawl attendence strinks to where Melee is. One or the other.

Not happening. What competitive tourneygoers don't realize is while Brawl may not be the best smash game for 1v.1 itemless tourneys, it is far superior to melee in terms of item matches, stage choice, story mode, and character diversity, and the game actually has a (barely) functional online mode that casual players use. As long as the casual players think Brawl is great, they will have an interest (like myself) in going competitive.

EDIT: Corey, mentioning Hitler for shock value ALWAYS detracts from what you have to say.