Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Corigames]

EDIT: Corey, mentioning Hitler for shock value ALWAYS detracts from what you have to say.

I didn't say Hitler, I said Germany. Also, don't mess up detract and distract.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Hitler beats Mussolini any day. But, prison rules, Mussolini wins every time.

 

[metaXzero]

Not happening. What competitive tourneygoers don't realize is while Brawl may not be the best smash game for 1v.1 itemless tourneys, it is far superior to melee in terms of item matches, stage choice, story mode, and character diversity, and the game actually has a (barely) functional online mode that casual players use. As long as the casual players think Brawl is great, they will have an interest (like myself) in going competitive.

1. Excluding ISP (which is still developing I think), their is no serious item standard. Item matches mean nothing to competitive Smash (right now).
2. Stage choice isn't that big of a deal (especially with all those broken and crappy ones.
3. Why are you bringing up story mode? What does that have to do with anything?
4. Heavily Debatable

And as I said, casuals move on to new things. They really don't matter.

 

[Corigames]

I think he means that those listed things keep casuals attracted, not that the competitive scene clings to them or anything.
The casuals will play Brawl and the real competitive players will move forward to Melee.

 

[metaXzero]

YESH! YESH!

But I wish I could find a competitive Smash scene in my town. NC Smash is concentrated in Raliegh T_T

 

[The Halloween Captain]

And as I said, casuals move on to new things. They really don't matter.

I'm not sure I agree with that. I played melee for years, started a club specifically for playing that game, and didn't enter an actual tournament until Brawl. I'm not sure if that would make me casual or something else, but there are a lot of people like me. The core of the entire club I founded was made up of devote fans who lacked the ability to enter a tournament successfully, in spite of possessing all the know-how.

Brawl is a casual game which never gets old. Maybe the tourney level isn't the greatest because of the tournament rules and precision, but the game itself is quite possibly the greatest multi-player game that has ever been developed.

EDIT: The Masses do not move forward into the past, Corey. Ever.

 

[metaXzero]

Casuals. The 1s eating up the Wiis shovelware. The 1s who could careless about hardcore gaming.

You don't fit into that group.

And Brawl, like any other game, will bore casuals and they will move on to other things.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

You're probably right.

I personally will probably stick to Brawl until SSB4 comes out. Most people will probably follow this logic concerning the tournaments. After all, every sequel has its legitimacy questioned, but that does not change what the new game is. Brawl is a sequel to Super Smash Bros. Melee on a better system than melee with a bigger fanbase than melee. It's a newer game than melee. All of this gives it an edge over melee in forming a competitive community, even before the actual merits of the game are discussed.

 

[metaXzero]

But will that competitive community hold strong through the character exclusive ATs, general defensive styles, long matches, and Melee's activists bringing up Melee's advantages over Brawl? That is the question.

 

[thumbswayup]

Panda Edit: ....Picture spam sucks.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I'd bet on Brawl holding strong. Surprisingly, most people believe Brawl is a better smash game in a historical context. And that takes effort, as in spite of all the graphical improvements and innovations to gameplay, Legend of Zelda, Orcarina of time continues to be viewed as the best Legend of Zelda of all time.

 

[skins2153]

Panda Edit: Why would someone spam like this?

 

[metaXzero]

That pic scares me....T_- I don't know what thunk.

THC. When you say most people, do you mean casuals and game reviewers who never saw Advance Melee?

 

[thumbswayup]

Panda Edit: No spam for you.

 

[mantlecore77]

Those who should win will win.

Scar, this was a very interesting and as you labeled, intelligent, thread. I took great interest in reading it and very much understood what you were getting at.

However, those who should win will win, I believe, is a very shaky statement.

I am not trying to get in your face. I'm stating an opinion in respect to everyone else's opinion. And I hope you don't toss aside what I say here.
So here goes.

As long as I've been playing Super Smash Bros., since the 64 days, I've never been a "dominant" player. I basically grasped simple concepts and took advantage of training with almost every character. I always like to think that Link is my best, and he probably is, but that's not the point.

Sometimes I'll invite some SSB-******** friends over and we'll play. Now in the back of my head I'm thinking the same thing: Those who should win will win.
And since I own the game and they don't, I should win. But even though I DO usually win, it's a usually disappointing loss.

Unless you completely strip every unpredictable aspect of SSB from itself, any game can go someone else's way.
What I am saying is that the stage, item stock and variance, competitor, and rule settings can mentally change the way even should-be masters play the game. This is what makes Super Smash Bros. in general a great game: it's totally unpredictable and fun altogether.
The only way this is not good is that cheap KO's can come quick, such as wandering Bob-Ombs near an edge or when that fish engulfs you on the floating glacier stage.

Anyways.

When you say that Melee is more competitive than Brawl, you are right and wrong in certain aspects, more right than wrong.

You are right because of the many points you made. They designed Brawl to be more of a "fun" game than Melee. I personally think that Melee was the most challenging, yet boring, SSB that they came out with. Nevertheless I own and love it, haha. But yes, Melee is more competitive.

But remember what I said. Different variables make each game different and unpredictable. Personally, I think that Brawl is the most unpredictable yet. With dozens and dozens of stages, assist trophies, items, and characters, it sometimes can be a mental game other than a videogame.

Don't call me ********, I know what I just said may sound kinda weird. I'm not trying to go all psychological on you, I'm just saying this. I will sum it up.

The reason that I can't say that "Those who should win will win" is because of the unpredictability of Brawl and Melee.

I'm sorry if I sounded stupid or ignorant and I became a part of the "People that Scar thinks is stupid" list, haha, I hope I didn't. This was a great thread though.

 

[Skler]

OoT was only improved upon, anyone who says OoT is better than TP is basing their decision off nostalgia. TP is the better game, it's a logical improvement over OoT. This is a moot point though, as LttP is the best legend of zelda game.

Brawl changed the smash formula, but not in a good way. It isn't an improvement except for its bells and whistles.

Address my post (the one before this, since I'm just posting this quick before people say OoT is the best), people who think Brawl is better.

 

[metaXzero]

Oot iz th3 b3st! Wh4t y0u t41king 4b0ut?

 

[thumbswayup]

You really don't see this? Come on, don't make me lose respect for you. Those are qualitative judgements. One could easily say that the fast-paced nature, the crazy combos, and the techinical requirements of Melee made the game less fun, and for that person, he'd be perfectly justified in saying that, just like you are justified in saying that's what you liked about Melee.

But just because that person didn't like those qualities, that doesn't make his opinion less valid. I really shouldn't have to be saying this.

Fine. You're right, I'm wrong. Happy now?

 

[wWw Dazwa]

This is a moot point though, as LttP is the best legend of zelda game.

Did I ever tell you that I love you?

Because I do.

With all my heart.

 

[AbsoluteZero255]

This is a great thread, Scar.

I mean, I personally think that brawl is more luck-based than melee. I mean, there's the random trip....

 

[-Wolfy-]

LttP is good, but there is a special place in my heart for Link's Awakening DX

 

[LOL_Master]

whoa man what is all this??? im confused

 

[EC_Joey]

The Halloween Captain is missing the point completely.

Brawl < Melee.

 

[thesage]

Um... what if I think Lufia 2 is the best Zelda style game?

 

[wWw Dazwa]

Um... what if I think Lufia 2 is the best Zelda style game?

Wow.

I don't even know what to say.

Skler, you just got out-loved.

 

[thesage]

Wow.

I don't even know what to say.

Skler, you just got out-loved.

The Zelda series is good and all, but every single game is just too easy for me. It's not like I hate easy games or anything (my fav. game is EarthBound and that becomes insanely easy if you know how to break it) but the series just starts to repeat too much for me. I have the same opinion about the mario series. I just got Mario 64 for the Virtual console and I got every single star except for those 100 coin stars in 2 days. I wasn't even trying >_>; The only Mario game that was hard was SMB 2 (the japanese version). I've had it for nearly 12 years now and I still can't beat it in 3 days (w/o warps). That game is HARD.

Nowadays there is no such thing as a hard videogame unfortunately. I really want a platformer/adventure game/ rpg that doesn't have a girly guy as the main character that is difficult because of ai or something. It shouldn't be hard because the controls are limited or you have to grind levels or something. I like outsmarting things. Not just gaying everything.

 

[Corigames]

Thesage... Zelda 2 for the NES?

You ever play it? You ever beat it?

I did.

 

[KosukeKGA]

GAME OVER

RETURN OF GANON - WOH WAH WOH WUH WOH WOH

 

[Corigames]

What a fat mother ****er, right?

His face +chins take up like, half the screen at the game over >_>

 

[turbinator]

The Halloween Captain is missing the point completely.

Brawl < Melee.

Thats your opinion not fact...

 

[Corigames]

Thats your opinion not fact...

No, what you said is your opinion, what he said is fact >_>


:D

 

[LOL_Master]

the zelda series...mmm

 

[-Wolfy-]

The Zelda series is good and all, but every single game is just too easy for me. It's not like I hate easy games or anything (my fav. game is EarthBound and that becomes insanely easy if you know how to break it) but the series just starts to repeat too much for me. I have the same opinion about the mario series. I just got Mario 64 for the Virtual console and I got every single star except for those 100 coin stars in 2 days. I wasn't even trying >_>; The only Mario game that was hard was SMB 2 (the japanese version). I've had it for nearly 12 years now and I still can't beat it in 3 days (w/o warps). That game is HARD.

Nowadays there is no such thing as a hard videogame unfortunately. I really want a platformer/adventure game/ rpg that doesn't have a girly guy as the main character that is difficult because of ai or something. It shouldn't be hard because the controls are limited or you have to grind levels or something. I like outsmarting things. Not just gaying everything.

Play the older ones. The 3D games were all woefully easy.

It'd be kind of cool if there were difficulty changes like Resident Evil, which would only affect the scarcity of some items and damage from attacks, etc.

 

[Aleol]

It's really impossible to have one game be better than another. It will always be a matter of opinion, and the best of anything is a matter of perspective. Such as; Windwaker is my favorite the best zelda game and zelda 1 or 2 are way too hard. Melee is technically better than brawl, but brawl has more people playing it..... MY OPINION

 

[Corigames]

Zelda 1 wasn't hard... compared to 2 >_>

And Super Metroid is the best game ever, no opinion there.

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Zelda 1 wasn't hard... compared to 2 >_>

And Super Metroid is the best game ever, no opinion there.

>______>


I have SM behind Metroid Prime, but yet again I never did completely finish that game considering how young I was.

 

[Aleol]

yeah... compared to zelda 2, 1 was a cakewalk, but compared to every other zelda game (and most other modern games) it was a *****

 

[Corigames]

Even the CDi games? Yet, those were difficult to play through not just because of gameplay.

 

[ADHD]

I think people are finally starting to realize was brawl is.

 

[Clai]

I'd love it if somebody would actually respond to one of my posts.

@Skler: I understand your feelings. To tell you the truth, I really feel that all the space animals in Melee play close to the same way as well. All the other Melee characters, yeah, they're really divergent, but the space animals always felt cookie-cutter when I played them. The worst part of it is: I knew that they would play the same way, and I still couldn't stop them because my brain-finger connection simply can't register fast enough to do anything about it.

Hopefully (and yes, I do have a really optimist outlook on Brawl, mainly because I want to fit into the competitive scene), people will figure out how to get past the cookie-cutter style and the ones who get beaten will develop innovate strategies to get past the hurdle. The increased amount of characters helps to achieve that, but we just aren't at the point where the cookie cutter registers as a hurdle that divides the truly competitive and the ones who just can't reach that point. At this time, the bar is way too high for that to happen, but my hopes is that people improve enough to get past it.

I did reply to your post, I just didn't quote you directly. I only did that because my post was long enough already and adding that quote in before my reply would have made it massively long into the TL;DR levels. So, that's my reply.