Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[LavisFiend]

No need to call the guy a f@g, he did a very good job at already insulting himself by labeling himself as an otaku.

Anyways, back on topic.

 

[znintendotaku]

znintendotaku says (in somewhat broken Japanese)...

"Do you understand Japanese?"
"Do you (crappy sentence)"
"I understand a little bit of Japanese"

.......What was the point in saying that?

the second part said "your not very skilled"

 

[znintendotaku]

I am not talking about his pathetic attempt at using google translate to make himself seem billingual.

I am referring to that ******** word Baka, pretty much the native cry of the yellow bellied weeaboo, who seem to have migrated from the darkest corners of the earth and basements of moms to conglomerate in modern america.

...It doesen't help that the guy has the friggin word "otaku" in his **** name.

If he knew what Otaku REALLY meant, he wouldn't dare label himself as such.

WTF, do you even know what OTAKU means....pffft google translate, HA!!! im studing ninhongo ga through a launguage program similar to rosetta stone...besides this is way off topic....

thumbswayup is a f@g

 

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Good lord this topic is too **** good.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Yes, Otaku holds a very negative connotation and if you understood it fully, you would never call yourself an Otaku.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Dare I ask what the word "Otaku" means?

 

[Reaver197]

im studing ninhongo ga through a launguage program similar to rosetta stone...

People like you make me ashamed of being half japanese. Seriously, don't buy into the shallow, superficial, anime-inspired pop culture of Japan. If you're going to learn about Japan, actually learn its culture, its history, and its traditions. Don't live or fashion your life by the insipid, empty bile that predominates the anime/otaku culture.

Grrrgh, anime...what have you done to my mother's country?

 

[LavisFiend]

znintendotaku, you are just too easy.

I'll get your yellow-bellied yahpuhkneez *** later. I got **** to do, and when I come back? I will slaughter you.

If anyone wants to step in and do the honors themselves, you better leave me a piece, but for now? Duty calls.

One eye open weeaboo, one eye open.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

I found out that Otaku means obsessive. In other words, "Nintendo Otaku" means "obsessed with Nintendo," like "Anime Otaku" means "obsessed with anime."

Reaver - its a matter of opinion, but Japanese pop-culture history seems in many ways much more interesting than Japanese ancient history. After WWII the Japanese seemed to hit a cultural revolution the likes of which I've never seen duplicated in the history of the world, and in my opinion, one of history's most difficult enigmas to understand.

 

[-Wolfy-]

I'm sure he thinks it means something along the lines of guru or master of a given thing. It's a pretty literal meaning of it, but it's colloquial meaning is more than obsessive. Obsessive like the kid who forgets to eat or sleep because they are so wrapped up in something. It is not a positive thing.

 

[znintendotaku]

I'm sure he thinks it means something along the lines of guru or master of a given thing. It's a pretty literal meaning of it, but it's colloquial meaning is more than obsessive. Obsessive like the kid who forgets to eat or sleep because they are so wrapped up in something. It is not a positive thing.

i agree with THC otaku means obsessive over something or its literal translation is geek...go to the profile page of tsuminaoshi he has argued about this as well so he posted 3 sources of definition that say the same thing as me...

now shut up and get back on topic...

 

[-Wolfy-]

Okay, I sent Samurai Panda a message, and he can be the third party expert, seeing as he has more exposure to the culture as well as the language than anyone else in the discussion.

Let's let it end with his definition of Otaku, and move on.

 

[metaXzero]

ummmm....

Melee>Brawl as a competitive fighter. But Brawl is good for people who like the slowed, defensive gameplay OR are ignorant, lazy n00bs who like to have their hand-held when playing a game.

Objections?

 

[Jack Kieser]

ummmm....

Melee>Brawl as a competitive fighter. But Brawl is good for people who like the slowed, defensive gameplay OR are ignorant, lazy n00bs who like to have their hand-held when playing a game.

Objections?

*facepalm* Yes. Objection.

Why is it that people who enjoy playing Brawl are idiots, again? I never understood that. Almost universally since the Japanese release, people considered anyone who liked Brawl inferior to people who didn't like it, and I never got that. Someone please explain, without comparing Brawl to Melee in any way, what makes a person who enjoys Brawl any more of an idiot than anyone else.

Please.

If you can't, then I think the community as a whole would appreciate it if you stopped doing that.

 

[Corigames]

No one can look at Brawl without looking at its predecessor though. That's the thing.

If we could, then Brawl would have a chance of being a good game.

 

[metaXzero]

Jack. Notice how I said OR?!! And where did I say "idiots"?

 

[The Halloween Captain]

No one can look at Brawl without looking at its predecessor though. That's the thing.

If we could, then Brawl would have a chance of being a good game.

So Brawl isn't a good game because you happen to like melee more?

 

[Corigames]

Because Melee happens to exist.

 

[metaXzero]

I hope Jack notices he made a BIG error.

 

[The Halloween Captain]

Because Melee happens to exist.

So Brawl isn't a good game because melee is its predecesor?

Objection!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Jack. Notice how I said OR?!! And where did I say "idiots"?

The question is, why does there even HAVE to be an 'or'? Why is that the assumption, that anyone who likes Brawl at all is inferior to anyone else? I happen to love strategy games and JRPG's, so I tend to like slower paced games. Yet, regardless of my reasoning, because I like Brawl in any capacity, because I just happen to think it is a good game, I'm somehow lazy? Where is the logic in that?

@coreygames: It shouldn't matter! Sonic '06 is the worst Sonic game I've ever seen, as far as I'm concerned. Let's assume that people agree with this sentiment. Let's also assume that another Sonic game comes out that is a pretty decent game, but isn't exceptional. Should we say that it is exceptional because its predecessor was so terrible? Of course not; you judge a game (or a person, or anything else) based off of its own merits. You like Melee more. Yay. Good for you. But for anyone to bash Brawl as much as it is simply because of that fact is ludicrous. Brawl is not a bad game, not by a long shot. But somehow it isn't worthy of anyone's playing or respect (based off of threads like this and the general consensus of the entirety of these boards)?

Again, I'll pose the question: why does the majority of SWF-goers think that someone who likes Brawl (at all) must have something wrong with him?

 

[znintendotaku]

I hope Jack notices he made a BIG error.

not really hes just wondering why you think there is possibility that brawl fans are how you described them....

how come there are very few people who are SMASH fans....
brawl isnt even slow its just slower than melee(which is mega fast)

BRAWL>MELEE= my opinion
MELEE=BRAWL= fact

 

[metaXzero]

Here is what I said for reference.

ummmm....

Melee>Brawl as a competitive fighter. But Brawl is good for people who like the slowed, defensive gameplay OR are ignorant, lazy n00bs who like to have their hand-held when playing a game.

Objections?

I didn't say all Brawlers are stupid, idiotic, or lacking a brain. I said either they prefer the slower, defensive pace OR are the horrible n00bs that give Brawlers a bad name.

I repeat. NOWHERE DID I SAY ALL PEOPLE WHO LIKE BRAWL ARE IDIOTS!

 

[Corigames]

So Brawl isn't a good game because melee is its predecesor?

Objection!

I don't need Pheoniz Write to get my point across. Melee was a great game for casuals and competitive players. It was full of useful tactics for all characters as well as individual tactics for each character. Brawl only improves in areas of the game that don't matter to that competitive player and also detracts from competitive play.

If Melee hadn't of been made and it went straight from SSB to SSBB, then SSBB would probably be an amazing game. However, when compared to Melee for the purposes we play it for, it feels like a step down.

So... over ruled.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I don't need Pheoniz Write to get my point across. Melee was a great game for casuals and competitive players. It was full of useful tactics for all characters as well as individual tactics for each character. Brawl only improves in areas of the game that don't matter to that competitive player and also detracts from competitive play.

If Melee hadn't of been made and it went straight from SSB to SSBB, then SSBB would probably be an amazing game. However, when compared to Melee for the purposes we play it for, it feels like a step down.

So... over ruled.

You know what? We need to stop saying that Melee was a good game for casuals, because it really wasn't. I was always the big gamer in my group of friends, and though my friends dabbled, I was definitely the most hardcore player. Almost none of the people I introduced to Smash excelled at it, or even liked it. It was too fast paced. Everyone said that. Critics said that. Casuals said that. It sold like crazy because people are sheep, and when a group as large as ours raves for years about a game, the hype train gains a lot of speed.

Melee was decent, at best, for casuals. Most didn't play Melee any longer than they played any other game.

 

[Corigames]

I played with my non-gamer friends at Melee, items on, bad stages, etc., everyday after school. I think it was an amazing casual game.

 

[metaXzero]

Jack. The majority of casuals didn't know about competitive Smash or ATs. Yet they still bought it for years.

Smash in general is a casual game first and formost. And all 3 are high sellers.

Also did you understand my last post?

 

[Grunt]

before Brawl, Melee was the casual fighter, because we didn't have Brawl to compare it to.

 

[Jack Kieser]

I played with my non-gamer friends at Melee, items on, bad stages, etc., everyday after school. I think it was an amazing casual game.

Exactly. YOU played with them. Sure, they'd play Melee when I was there (usually only if I was on their team), but if I wasn't there, they didn't have any drive to play. That's the difference. How many casuals still play Wii Sports?

A lot.

That is a measure of a good casual game. When casual players desire to continue playing on their own. That is definitely the exception in terms of Melee, at least in my experience (and as one of the most active advocates for games in my city, I got a lot of people to play games, Melee included).

EDIT @ meta: So they didn't know about our scene specifically? You say that like it matters. Who drove sales? We did. Who advocated the game? We did. Who made everyone who owned a Gamecube feel left out if they didn't have Melee? We did. A casual isn't going to push sales for a game; only the most hardcore lovers of a game will drive sales, which is exactly what happened with Melee. Smash 64 was not a hugely selling game (at the time of release). It did well, sure, but if we hadn't pushed Melee as much as we did, Melee probably would have sold rather similarly to SSB64. It would have sold just as well, but certainly not as amazingly as it did with our immense backing.

 

[Skler]

I played Melee casually for several years. I put it away for a while and then took it out again after one of my friends asked to play it. We played it almost obsessively as casual players for a few months after that before we actually became competitive. Saying Melee is a bad casual game is silly, it's a fantastic game for casuals. Tons of items, four players, lots of game modes (BONUS LOLOLOLOL), great graphics, fast and addictive gameplay, simple controls and everyone's favorite Nintendo characters! Melee was great for casuals.

Edit: check out my sign up date, that's when I started playing competitive Melee. I played it casually since its release minus one year, that's about five years of playing Melee as a casual.

 

[Corigames]

So you are saying that the minority, the like 5% of people who play games, got Melee into the 7 million sold?

BS

 

[Jack Kieser]

So you are saying that the minority, the like 5% of people who play games, got Melee into the 7 million sold?

BS

If you knew anything about the way economics in entertainment works, then that wouldn't seem so crazy to you.

 

[metaXzero]

Jack. Casuals not knowing about us, or tournaments actually does matter. Since they have no idea of Smash tournaments, why do they continue buying Melee? Because it is a good casual game. Skyler explains it well.

EDIT. Competitive Smash helped push sales, but not by such a large margin.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Boo. I'm out of this discussion for a week. Football camp, peace. This better not close while I'm gone.

*looks around suspiciously at mods*

 

[Reaver197]

Exactly. YOU played with them. Sure, they'd play Melee when I was there (usually only if I was on their team), but if I wasn't there, they didn't have any drive to play. That's the difference. How many casuals still play Wii Sports?

A lot.

That is a measure of a good casual game. When casual players desire to continue playing on their own. That is definitely the exception in terms of Melee, at least in my experience (and as one of the most active advocates for games in my city, I got a lot of people to play games, Melee included).

EDIT @ meta: So they didn't know about our scene specifically? You say that like it matters. Who drove sales? We did. Who advocated the game? We did. Who made everyone who owned a Gamecube feel left out if they didn't have Melee? We did. A casual isn't going to push sales for a game; only the most hardcore lovers of a game will drive sales, which is exactly what happened with Melee. Smash 64 was not a hugely selling game. It did well, sure, but if we hadn't pushed Melee as much as we did, Melee probably would have sold rather similarly to SSB64.

Mighty big assumptions there on your part. Who's this "we" you're referring to? The SWF community? 123,000 people somehow getting a game to sell over 7 million copies? And that 7 million owners wouldn't play unless one of us SWF people were there to "drive" them to play? I would have to call hubris for such assumptions.

 

[Corigames]

If you knew anything about the way economics in entertainment works, then that wouldn't seem so crazy to you.

And if you knew anything about gaming, you would know exactly how crazy you sound.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Mighty big assumptions there on your part. Who's this "we" you're referring to? The SWF community? 123,000 people somehow getting a game to sell over 7 million copies? And that 7 million owners wouldn't play unless one of us SWF people were there to "drive" them to play? I would have to call hubris for such assumptions.

The 'we' are the hardcore Smash lovers (hell, we could probably broaden it to hardcore gamers in general). It's ridiculous for us to assume that every Smash player in the world frequents (or even knows about) this site. 'We', the people who go crazy over Smash (be it a heavy tournament goer or just someone who thinks its a crazy good game), drive long terms sales by creating a spike in short term sales. I believe the term used by NPD is 'early adopters'.

We get a game right when it comes out, and we tell all of our friends, whether they play games or not, how awesome it is. Any time you went up to any person at all and said that Smash was an awesome game, you drove sales. Any time you told a causal player that he 'just had to play this game', you effected the causal market. We don't need to tell people about tournaments or ATs to drive sales; all we need to do is give our 'Hardcore Gamer Seal of Approval'.

 

[Corigames]

At the same time, people look at us in disgust. They say that we waste all our time on games. I had people who just didn't talk to me because I knew where **** was in Mario or they heard me talking about Burnout. Yet, they still had Xbox's and played Halo. Did I effect them in that way? No. They made choices leading to buying it.

Only a handful of people that have Melee turned into the tourny going people. IF that's true, why was it the top selling game for every year it's been out since? It's ridiculous. I highly doubt it's because word of mouth from the hardcore persuaded so many people to buy it. 7 million.

7 MILLION

 

[Jack Kieser]

At the same time, people look at us in disgust. They say that we waste all our time on games. I had people who just didn't talk to me because I knew where **** was in Mario or they heard me talking about Burnout. Yet, they still had Xbox's and played Halo. Did I effect them in that way? No. They made choices leading to buying it.

Only a handful of people that have Melee turned into the tourny going people. IF that's true, why was it the top selling game for every year it's been out since? It's ridiculous. I highly doubt it's because word of mouth from the hardcore persuaded so many people to buy it. 7 million.

7 MILLION

Ok, let's try this one more time. You HAVE effected at least one person and influenced him/her to buy/play Melee. It is an inevitability. However, ANY PERSON effected or influenced by the person YOU effected or influenced, as far as companies like NPD are concerned, is still your doing. The logic is that if you didn't effect or influence the first person, he/she wouldn't have influenced anyone else.

It's a pyramid effect. THAT'S how numbers reach 7 million. That's a significant part of how Halo reached it's sales numbers, too. Early adopters hype the game to others, vastly expanding the amount of people marketed to; we are even accounted for in marketing strategies! We are, for all intents and purposes, just as useful to companies as TV ads.

 

[gantrain05]

You know what? We need to stop saying that Melee was a good game for casuals, because it really wasn't. I was always the big gamer in my group of friends, and though my friends dabbled, I was definitely the most hardcore player. Almost none of the people I introduced to Smash excelled at it, or even liked it. It was too fast paced. Everyone said that. Critics said that. Casuals said that. It sold like crazy because people are sheep, and when a group as large as ours raves for years about a game, the hype train gains a lot of speed.

Melee was decent, at best, for casuals. Most didn't play Melee any longer than they played any other game.

lmao, i love how your basing the opinions of the entire world on your group of friends, sorry but melee is an incredible casual game as well as a competetive game, MAYBE your friends didn't have the drive to play because YOU were a hardcore gamer, and they didn't feel like gettin their ***** kicked all over the place, and maybe you actually pulled them away from the game rather than trying to get them into it.