Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[The Halloween Captain]

More should be expected of the biggest competitive fighting game community on Earth.

I'm sure you can find "more" if you go to the right character board.

 

[Corigames]

NO, I agree with Nippon Celestial Rain, Gamefaq is pretty darn bad.

 

[LOL_Master]

this entire thread has been set on lols, massive lols

 

[Reaver197]

While I feel that melee was more Offensive brawl is totally defense based. In 2 years pro matches will last upwards 30mins (4 stock FD). Otherwise I think Brawl is superior to melee

I hold your observation to be incompatible with your beliefs. As a rational and critical thinker, I think you ought to explain yourself.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Where's Variola.

I have this violent urge to tell him how much I enjoyed The Dark Knight.

H.L. really stole the show as The Joker.

 

[Lord Viper]

Didn't this thread die like.... a month ago? The debate should be over by now. -_-;

 

[EC_Joey]

Where's Variola.

I have this violent urge to tell him how much I enjoyed The Dark Knight.

H.L. really stole the show as The Joker.

F*CK YES. I loved his entrance with the disappearing pencil. I'm just pissed he won't be in the next movie.

My avatar/location are going to stay like that for a while.

 

[thumbswayup]

NOOOOOOOOOO SPOILERS!!!!!!! I still haven't seen it That'll change at 7 pm tonight.

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

The thread is still alive!!!! Yes!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Miss me?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

ah crap double post, sry

 

[thumbswayup]

Blitz! Where have ya been?

 

[bovineblitzkrieg]

Playing starcraft incessantly (yay for competition!), working, finding a new apartment... I's been busy!

Glad to see you're standing strong holdin' it down with the truth!

 

[EC_Joey]

NOOOOOOOOOO SPOILERS!!!!!!! I still haven't seen it That'll change at 7 pm tonight.

Sorry! I didn't give anything away. Everyone knows Heath Ledger's dead.

 

[thumbswayup]

Haha, that's ok. I started reading part of your post and thought I saw a spoiler so I didn't read the rest. But omfg I am psyched for this movie. I think it's going to be the greatest film I'll see in theaters in my young life.

 

[EC_Joey]

I don't think Heath Ledger's performance is guaranteed an Oscar, but it really is unforgettable.

 

[-Wolfy-]

Truly was.

 

[Corigames]

I loved how well he played the joker... because it made me have that "LOL HE'S FUNNY" moments while also going, "**** THAT ****ER IS CREEPY!"

 

[LavisFiend]

How would they go about giving an oscar to a dead man without being seen as gifting it to him for sympathy?

 

[Corigames]

Because the man was ****ing in believable in that role? It's not like giving one out to everyone who plays a ****** convincingly... I mean, my 11 year old sister can do that.

 

[thumbswayup]

How would they go about giving an oscar to a dead man without being seen as gifting it to him for sympathy?

They've done it before.

 

[LavisFiend]

My point is that it cuts in to acknowledging him for his role as the Joker because many people will see it as a sympathy thing.

It kind of cuts his efforts short because many people will not recognize him for doing a good job on the role, but rather will see that him earning the award is a sympathy thing.

 

[LOL_Master]

still good to see the joker nonetheless

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

You only think it's dull and broken because you don't bother to play it the same way you would look at Melee or Smash 64. You go in playing Brawl knowing that it doesn't have the techs and available options that Melee has, and thus you find it empty and unfulfilling. Anybody who's entering a game/function/event expecting it to be crap will look at the downfalls and say it's crap. Fine, think of it as you want, but other people, like myself, find this game very competitive. The accessability to high-level gaming through its easier controls, not to mention its online capabilites, could drive more people into Brawl than having a game fileld with advanced techs coming out the wazoo.

Melee may have a higher degree of competitiveness, but most people play to win. I certainly don't think that Brawl is too shallow that winning only makes a hollow feeling, and most people don't. If you think you're too good to play Brawl, then play Melee.

Why make such long posts.... just accept the fact that brawl is terrible and nintendo fails again....and move on. Your position is as undefendable as the ****in maginot line. Brawl sucks.... gg thats the end of it.

 

[Clai]

I've actually heard that more than quite a few times. And I would agree with the advice to switch to Brawl if Melee is too difficult for someone.

People complaining about Melee "Quite a few times" in a 400 page thread vs. an average of once per (legitimate, non-spam) page complaining about Brawl. The whining is so unbalanced it's not even funny.

No one has really whined like you say we have. I've done fine in tournaments and fine against MK's and Snakes. We don't say we'll never get past the camping. You seem to be arguing for the sake of arguing, Clai.

I'm arguing because I believe Brawl is a legitimate game, and I have to put up with BS like this all the time:

Here's the difference between 64/Melee and Brawl that people fail to realize. 64 and Melee were just made without competitiveness in mind. Brawl was designed specifically NOT to become a competitive game. Yes, it is inherently competitive, but Sakurai specifically intended for Brawl to be uncompetitive (hence why the quality of Brawl's metagame is so.......dull and broken).

Hell yes. I went to a smashfest tonight that was all Melee, and I'm glad to be back playing... Once you go back, you realize how inferior and boring Brawl really is.

This was just the last two pages from my last post. Then there's people with posts like "LOL, Brawl sux, go play Melee;" and Eggm, who trolls into every Brawl thread asking a legitimate question and says, basically, "You should go play Melee." It's incessant, it's intolerable, and it's never going to stop. I have to argue in this thread just so Brawl doesn't get placed in the neighborhood eye as a preschool toddler game like Elmo's learn to count.

I assure you that at least one person in the next ten posts is going to say "Elmo's learn to count is much more competitive than Brawl." I guarantee it.

Why is it like this? It's because everyone is ramped up on sugar and won't be satisfied unless they have perfect control over every bit of space with no fewer than 17 button commands every second. You know that people today are messed up when the announcers from the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest say that everybody today is ADD. So when a game comes along with a few limitations and requires bits of patience and takes more than 90 seconds to complete, they spit on it and won't stop until every group of people within close proximity starts spitting on it too.

Basically, I'm not going to stop arguing until people accept that Melee is a technical, fast-paced, and offensive game while Brawl is a strenous, patient, and defensive game; that there is a community that likes and embraces one type of game and not necessarily the other, stop hurling useless insults at each other, and co-exist in peace.

Thank you HoChiMinTrail for proving my point for me. GG, and stop excreting mindless buzzwords like "nintendo fails."

 

[thumbswayup]

Elmo's learn to count is much more competitive than Brawl.

 

[gantrain05]

Elmo's learn to count is much more competitive than Brawl.

dude that game is ****in hard.

 

[metaXzero]

Clai. You do know that what you quoted from me is the truth right?

 

[gantrain05]

double post, srry, but honestly, clai does have a point, and u guys are bashing brawl pretty hard, he's basically right, melee was a big offensive game with lots of technical skill, while brawl just flipped it into defensive mode, and thats his opinion, and i see pages upon pages of u people flaming him because he's in here defending his position and all u can come up with is "ZOMG BRAWL SUXORZ, ITS LAME, MELEE RULZ" crap.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Clai, can I have your babies? Finally, someone has a little sense in this (rather stupid) debate. In the long run, does it really matter which game is 'better'? No, it doesn't. It's all preference, and there is a legitimate community built around each of the Smash games (even 64), so I don't see why anyone feels threatened by Brawl's popularity; let's be clear: that's what started this whole mess. It is obvious that a significant amount of Melee vets felt threatened because of Melee's rapid decline, and took to this 'Brawl sux' cause to try to bring down Brawl as fast as possible in a last-ditch effort to return Melee to supremacy.

Enough is enough. We all know why people prefer Brawl over Melee and why people prefer Melee over Brawl. Can this thread please be closed? Because nothing good has come from it in a long time (minus the Dark Knight comments; oh, I can't wait to see it).

 

[thumbswayup]

We've come up with A HELL OF A LOT more things to say than that when it comes to bashing Brawl and praising Melee. How many times have we listed what's wrong with Brawl and why Melee is so much better in every possible way? We give LEGIT reasons and go in depth, but you Brawl noobs don't listen. You just play Brawl because it's easier and you're too lazy to even give Melee a try competitively.

In all honesty, only those who have played both Melee and Brawl competitively have validity in their opinions. Those who have played neither, or one but not the other, have no place in this discussion, or any that pertain to the Melee vs. Brawl debate.

 

[Skler]

Why is it like this? It's because everyone is ramped up on sugar and won't be satisfied unless they have perfect control over every bit of space with no fewer than 17 button commands every second. You know that people today are messed up when the announcers from the Nathan's Hot Dog Eating Contest say that everybody today is ADD. So when a game comes along with a few limitations and requires bits of patience and takes more than 90 seconds to complete, they spit on it and won't stop until every group of people within close proximity starts spitting on it too.

Basically, I'm not going to stop arguing until people accept that Melee is a technical, fast-paced, and offensive game while Brawl is a strenous, patient, and defensive game; that there is a community that likes and embraces one type of game and not necessarily the other, stop hurling useless insults at each other, and co-exist in peace.

Thank you HoChiMinTrail for proving my point for me. GG, and stop excreting mindless buzzwords like "nintendo fails."

First let me say I play Link, the hardest tech I have to do is wavedash, and I don't even need to do that much because Link's wavedash is garbage. So I play a slow, defensive character in Melee. I love playing defensive and I can't play very fast. Why do I like melee more than Brawl? Because Melee lets you play at your own pace. Brawl forces you to play slow and defensive. Melee is whatever you want it to be, the better player sets the pace because they're capable of doing so. It's great to force a Fox to play slowly by limiting his options, Brawl does that for you because the game itself limits your options.

In Melee the player actually stands out, you get amazed at how good certain people are and it's exciting. People who use the same character have drastically different play styles that both work. In Brawl everyone who uses the same character (and is good) has the same cookie-cutter style. I just don't see how people can like a game that forces you to play a certain way when there's a much better option available. Playing Brawl is like doing a color by numbers game, playing Melee is like drawing your own picture.

Edit: So many people will never appreciate how amazing Melee was because they got so used to being forced into their opponent's pace that they assumed it was the only way to play. It's a shame.

 

[EC_Joey]

Elmo's learn to count is much more competitive than Brawl.

$5 money match now!

 

[thumbswayup]

$5 money match now!

You're on!

 

[HoChiMinhTrail]

I have to argue in this thread just so Brawl doesn't get placed in the neighborhood eye as a preschool toddler game like Elmo's learn to count.

On the contrary.... you just proved my point for me. You can't play the game and not come to the very conclusion you have just reached yourself. You said this because u know it is true deep down and such things you only admit to yourself and mabye your gf after you've just had a long day at work.

I'm not bashing the game because its slow ... and takes patience.... im bashing it because its simply a bad game. I love chess and checkers and look at all the tech skill and speed in those games...

Nintendo does fail because they have no vision when it comes to competetive gaming. They simply insult our intelligence with this pre-school learning tool they entitled "Brawl." Making brawl after having a great game like melee is like making halo 3 into a golden eye with better graphics ... because halo 2 was too competetive and fast paced. Nintendo is a child's company... i hate to admit it myself.... because i wanted to believe they were innovative and original.... rofl yea right. Myself, jsut like all the other melee players who dislike brawl, wanted brawl to be better than melee in every way possible. I gave the game a chance and still hold some sort of optimism for the game.. .but its not looking good. When comparing the 2 brawl pales in comparison to melee, the latter being truely one of the most underrated fighting games of our time and truely a miracle of greatness from that long dead video game maker we all know as nintendo... gg.

the end... brawl < than melee .... there just is no debating anything otherwise...

 

[gantrain05]

On the contrary.... you just proved my point for me. You can't play the game and not come to the very conclusion you have just reached yourself. You said this because u know it is true deep down and such things you only admit to yourself and mabye your gf after you've just had a long day at work.

I'm not bashing the game because its slow ... and takes patience.... im bashing it because its simply a bad game. I love chess and checkers and look at all the tech skill and speed in those games...

Nintendo does fail because they have no vision when it comes to competetive gaming. They simply insult our intelligence with this pre-school learning tool they entitled "Brawl." Making brawl after having a great game like melee is like making halo 3 into a golden eye with better graphics ... because halo 2 was too competetive and fast paced. Nintendo is a child's company... i hate to admit it myself.... because i wanted to believe they were innovative and original.... rofl yea right. Myself, jsut like all the other melee players who dislike brawl, wanted brawl to be better than melee in every way possible. I gave the game a chance and still hold some sort of optimism for the game.. .but its not looking good. When comparing the 2 brawl pales in comparison to melee, the latter being truely one of the most underrated fighting games of our time and truely a miracle of greatness from that long dead video game maker we all know as nintendo... gg.

the end... brawl < than melee .... there just is no debating anything otherwise...

this post = epic fail.

 

[Linkguy]

As of right now the majority's conclusion is that melee > brawl, and that it will always be this way thanks to brawls horrible infrastructure, no matter what is found. We can argue in circles, but the conclusion will not change. I dont know why this argument is still going, why not just play both.

 

[Jack Kieser]

We've come up with A HELL OF A LOT more things to say than that when it comes to bashing Brawl and praising Melee. How many times have we listed what's wrong with Brawl and why Melee is so much better in every possible way? We give LEGIT reasons and go in depth, but you Brawl noobs don't listen. You just play Brawl because it's easier and you're too lazy to even give Melee a try competitively.

In all honesty, only those who have played both Melee and Brawl competitively have validity in their opinions. Those who have played neither, or one but not the other, have no place in this discussion, or any that pertain to the Melee vs. Brawl debate.

Um... thanks for making (some pretty bold) assumptions there, buddy. I have played both Melee and Brawl competitively, and I freely admit (as I have here and in other threads in the past) that I'm trash at both games. But, I've spent all of SSB64's, Melee's, and Brawl's lifetimes playing in the competitive spirit, spent the last 2 years of Melee's lifetime getting rocked by competitive players in a competitive setting, and spent all of Brawl's lifetime studying and applying balance on a theoretical and tactical level.

I've seen all the stupid sh*t that you have, and I don't go around to every thread I can bashing Brawl like a red-headed stepchild, even though I like Melee better. OMG, how is that possible?! Easy: because I'm not a craven douche.

I don't feel threatened by a video game. Yeah, it sucks that there are no more Melee tourneys for me to go to in an attempt to get better at the game... but I don't have any right to complain about it because all I'm doing is hosting Brawl tournaments, anyway.

Does the game have flaws? Yes, and no one of integrity has ever denied this fact. But is it a terrible game? If we assume that entertainment can be quantified in such a way as to assign a 1/0, good/bad to it, then no, it isn't. You don't like it, but that doesn't invalidate the thousands, if not millions of people who do like it, and every time you say 'Brawl is trash, it doesn't deserve to be played competitively', you are basically telling every one of those millions of people that they are inferior to you (or at least have inferior tastes)... all because of a difference in video game preferences.

So you've 'listed what's wrong with Brawl and why Melee is so much better in every possible way'... Big deal. You want a cookie or something? It doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, people still will like Brawl, and the fact that you (seem to) want that to change shows how shallow you are.

 

[EC_Joey]

this post = epic fail.

Back up your reasoning.

 

[metaXzero]

It isn't epic fail. He's just posting his opinion.

Though Nintendo truly doesn't care much about their hardcore or traditional fans (as evidenced by the abundance of shovelware on the Wii and their E3 conference).

 

[thumbswayup]

Um... thanks for making (some pretty bold) assumptions there, buddy. I have played both Melee and Brawl competitively, and I freely admit (as I have here and in other threads in the past) that I'm trash at both games. But, I've spent all of SSB64's, Melee's, and Brawl's lifetimes playing in the competitive spirit, spent the last 2 years of Melee's lifetime getting rocked by competitive players in a competitive setting, and spent all of Brawl's lifetime studying and applying balance on a theoretical and tactical level.

I've seen all the stupid sh*t that you have, and I don't go around to every thread I can bashing Brawl like a red-headed stepchild, even though I like Melee better. OMG, how is that possible?! Easy: because I'm not a craven douche.

I don't feel threatened by a video game. Yeah, it sucks that there are no more Melee tourneys for me to go to in an attempt to get better at the game... but I don't have any right to complain about it because all I'm doing is hosting Brawl tournaments, anyway.

Does the game have flaws? Yes, and no one of integrity has ever denied this fact. But is it a terrible game? If we assume that entertainment can be quantified in such a way as to assign a 1/0, good/bad to it, then no, it isn't. You don't like it, but that doesn't invalidate the thousands, if not millions of people who do like it, and every time you say 'Brawl is trash, it doesn't deserve to be played competitively', you are basically telling every one of those millions of people that they are inferior to you (or at least have inferior tastes)... all because of a difference in video game preferences.

So you've 'listed what's wrong with Brawl and why Melee is so much better in every possible way'... Big deal. You want a cookie or something? It doesn't matter, because at the end of the day, people still will like Brawl, and the fact that you (seem to) want that to change shows how shallow you are.

Did I name you among the ones who shouldn't post their opinions? NO, where on earth did you get that from. Also, where in my post did I say Brawl is a bad game? I stated only that it's inferior to Melee, which it is. That is indisputable fact. Had Melee never existed, Brawl might have been a great game. As it is, howevever, with Melee being its predecessor, it fails to match up in the competitive scene.

edit- EPICLY fails