Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?

[Nigerian Star Storm]

Brilliant DKs actually have broken into the top 5 of huge Brawl tournaments >_>

Someone's happy the Celts won >_>.

 

[LOL_Master]

I'm On Top Of The Worrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrlddddd Ma!!!!!!!!

 

[LOL_Master]

i keep hearing that brawl is broken, and in my mind im comparing the broken with melee, someone please fill me in on this 'broken' word for brawl, i know ddd's cg obviously...

 

[Dark Sonic]

^^Marth's grab infinite on Ness and Lucas, Shiek's f-tilt, Snake's f-tilt, Snake's up tilt, Metaknight's up B, Metaknight's glide attack, Metaknight's neutral B, Metaknight's d-smash, Snakes DAC, just to name a few.

I mean seriously. WTF

 

[Magus420]

 

[ICANTCOUNT123456]

^^Marth's grab infinite on Ness and Lucas, Shiek's f-tilt, Snake's f-tilt, Snake's up tilt, Metaknight's up B, Metaknight's glide attack, Metaknight's neutral B, Metaknight's d-smash, Snakes DAC, just to name a few.

I mean seriously. WTF

not even einstein could explain this

 

[Pink Reaper]

Lol, wtf? And magus, do you update your Location every time you post?

 

[-Linko-]

not even einstein could explain this

Yes, he could:

Snake's limbs created a distorsion in space-time, that according to his famous formula E=mc^2, means that he would hit two metres away from his center of mass.

LOL @ Snake's Range Rover.

 

[Pink Reaper]

E=mc^2 is an energy equation stating that atom's at rest exist with an energy level equal to they're mass times the the speed of light squared. It actually has nothing to do with the speed of light, rather, it's just a way to describe the enormous amount of energy a simple atom has(the speed of light is a very large number, squaring it would be insane) So rather, his tilts split atoms releasing their energy, distorting space-time creating a fold in space allowing him to strike his opponent from a distance greater than his limbs would allow.

 

[SamDvds]

at the DK comment earlier: i dont think DK is all that low tier yet....at darkrain's last tourney there was a DK in first and third place in singles.

 

[EC_Joey]

I originally jumped into this discussion due to people implying Brawl was horrible in every aspect and their word was law.

The more and more I post, it just seems like it's pointless. Both games have differences, but not to the degree of saying one is more competitive or skillful when it just seems like it's a preference.

Do you like Fast Melee or do you like slowed down Brawl?

I don't recall anyone implying Brawl is horrible in every aspect. I think everyone agrees it's a decent game, but the changes made in the transition from Melee -> Brawl only served to simplify and dumb the game down. This was Sakurai's intent, so don't deny this.

Melee is more competitive than Brawl. Read Scar's definition of competitive in the first post.

 

[Skler]

Brilliant DKs actually have broken into the top 5 of huge Brawl tournaments >_>

Did real good players go to these? Were there 5 metaknights/snakes played by people who are known as good players or is it a tournament filled with people who think sonic is good because he's fast? I just can't see a DK placing well in a tournament against competent spammers.

 

[Zankoku]

BUM split with PC at one of the NYC Weeklies for first. I think that's pretty significant.

 

[EC_Joey]

What's with all the splitting for first that's going on these days? Does it mean they don't play the grand finals and just split even, or do they play the grand finals but decide beforehand to split even?

 

[Zankoku]

Splitting happens either between good friends before the set starts, or due to time constraints. I'm not sure which one it was in that case.

 

[EC_Joey]

M2K and Chu Dat split at the Georgia Melee tournament. Any idea about that situation?

 

[RDK]

M2K and Chu Dat split at the Georgia Melee tournament. Any idea about that situation?

That ******* wanted an assured victory, so he asked Chu to split the pot. Knowing M2K would probably have won anyway, Chu agreed.

 

[EC_Joey]

LOL. Good stuff.

 

[Aesir]

Marth doesn't have an infinite because ness and lucas can get out of it..>_>

How is that an infinite?

 

[LOL_Master]

M2K ***** Chu earlier 2-0.

 

[RDK]

Marth doesn't have an infinite because ness and lucas can get out of it..>_>

How is that an infinite?

A good 2/3 of the roster have infinites (jabs). Get someone up against a wall with Fox or Kirby.

 

[Zankoku]

The only not-banned stage with a permanent wall is Corneria. There are no not-banned stages with permanent walk-off zones.

 

[Clai]

Woah, woah, woah... you guys act like I'm talking about 'doom and gloom' Smash Armageddon here. First of all, I already said twice that the highest tier of players are exceptions. Second, stagnation isn't necessarily a bad thing. If every single person played completely differently, there would be no metagame at all because there would be no cohesiveness in player style; there is a reason that certain tactics are useful or effective, and that's partially because they are so prevalent. And again, I never said it would be crazy stagnant, either. It's not like every match will be exactly the same; they will become more similar with time in certain ways because, again, people emulate each other more than they innovate. A larger player base gives more of a chance for 'the Chudats, the Captain Jacks. The Bums and the Tajs', but it by no means guarantees them, nor does the existence of people like them now ensure that any of them will again revolutionize.

I'm just trying to stay as objective as I can and not let my love for Melee cloud my judgment by saying 'Melee is teh gretest and WAYZ bettr than Brawl will EVAR BEEE!' Melee may have few faults, but one of them is undeniably that it is getting older, and there are consequences to that.

Melee's advancing age and Brawl's thrust into the competitive scene (deservedly or otherwise) aside, I fail to see why this can't apply to Brawl. Certainly the highest tier of players are going to exist with a completely different style from Melee's highest tier, but it's going to take years before the echleons of Brawl players are formed. Yeah, people see now that Snake and Metaknight players own everyone (with a couple of execptions), but once people get a hold of fighting against Snake's atom space-time diffusion hitboxes and Metaknight's spastic attacks, the amount of competitive characters and players is going to explode. Yes, Melee is innately the better game, but with people taking advantage of the larger cast and the combination of Melee players' transitions into Brawl with the new Wii crowd, Brawl's competitive scene may be larger than Melee's. Is it fair? It's not in my power to say, but once people start breaking past the newbs who can't play the game well so they play the character selection screen, Brawl tournaments may end up being massively enjoyable occasions.

I mean, after Snake and Metaknight, we have ROB, Falco, Pit, Game and Watch, Sheik/Zelda, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Olimar, Wario, Marth, and GANONDORF; all of which could steal the spotlight in a major scene (Okay, not really Ganondorf, but can this thread please stop dumping on Ganon like the sickly, red-headed child of a family of athletes? Other characters have it much worse going for them than Ganondorf. Captain Falcon, anyone?).

We may be in a stage where whoever works the god-tier the best wins, but once the ChuDat's, the Captain Jack's, the Bum's and the Taj's of Brawl start coming, we are going to see a new era of Brawl gameplay like nobody could predict.

 

[RDK]

The only not-banned stage with a permanent wall is Corneria. There are no not-banned stages with permanent walk-off zones.

I realize this; I was just making a statement about infinintes.

 

[EC_Joey]

I mean, after Snake and Metaknight, we have ROB, Falco, Pit, Game and Watch, Sheik/Zelda, Pikachu, Donkey Kong, Olimar, Wario, Marth, and GANONDORF; all of which could steal the spotlight in a major scene (Okay, not really Ganondorf, but can this thread please stop dumping on Ganon like the sickly, red-headed child of a family of athletes? Other characters have it much worse going for them than Ganondorf. Captain Falcon, anyone?).

Ganondorf has it the worst. He's OLD MAN WINTER!

 

[Jack Kieser]

Ganondorf has it the worst. He's OLD MAN WINTER!

Old Man-ondorf.

 

[gantrain05]

Did real good players go to these? Were there 5 metaknights/snakes played by people who are known as good players or is it a tournament filled with people who think sonic is good because he's fast? I just can't see a DK placing well in a tournament against competent spammers.

DK actually can handles spammers pretty well, although im not sure how good the players in the tourney were, im certainly not going to discount DK being able to place top 5, i used to think he sucked in brawl but after playing a against a few good ones i think he really deserves High Tier at least.

 

[Zankoku]

Can't Runnindorf.

 

[EC_Joey]

Old Man-ondorf.

Poor Granondorf. Nobody cuts him any slack.

 

[-Wolfy-]

DK actually can handles spammers pretty well, although im not sure how good the players in the tourney were, im certainly not going to discount DK being able to place top 5, i used to think he sucked in brawl but after playing a against a few good ones i think he really deserves High Tier at least.

For that to have any merit you should have said "...i think he really deserves Mid Tier at least."

High tier for someone who's in dispute?

 

[25%Cotton]

Can't Runnindorf.

(word of advice: never, i say NEVER, put double n's when referring to ganon/ganondorf. it's not safe )

 

[Jack Kieser]

Poor Granondorf. Nobody cuts him any slack.

It's entertaining when one of my friends plays Ganon; if they choose the white color scheme, I yell out 'OH NOES, ITZ OLD MANONDORF!!1' and proceed to projectile spam him to death.

...that's what he gets for being old. And slow. And old.

 

[EC_Joey]

*Checks mailbox* Where's my Social Security check?!?

*Other characters drive by and pelt him with projectiles*

**** hoodlums! Throwing s*** at me just because I'm old! Back in the day, I'd go pig form and show those whippersnappers what's wha-

...


Zzzzzzzzzzz...

A day in the life...

 

[LOL_Master]

loool, security check???

 

[gantrain05]

For that to have any merit you should have said "...i think he really deserves Mid Tier at least."

High tier for someone who's in dispute?

well thats my opinion on DK anyways, i just think he's got so many good/neutral matchups and he matches up very well to many of the top/high tier characters that i think he'll only be moving up from here.

 

[Roller]

well thats my opinion on DK anyways, i just think he's got so many good/neutral matchups and he matches up very well to many of the top/high tier characters that i think he'll only be moving up from here.

umm...no. DK being mid is ok...not high.

 

[-Wolfy-]

well thats my opinion on DK anyways, i just think he's got so many good/neutral matchups and he matches up very well to many of the top/high tier characters that i think he'll only be moving up from here.

I'm playing devil's advocate here. I like DK, it's just that his matchups don't exactly compare with the higher tier characters. He is no doubt Middle Tier. High Tier remains to be seen.

 

[Clai]

It's entertaining when one of my friends plays Ganon; if they choose the white color scheme, I yell out 'OH NOES, ITZ OLD MANONDORF!!1' and proceed to projectile spam him to death.

...that's what he gets for being old. And slow. And old.

And once he gets through them projectiles, those hoodlums will have their face filled with dark flames, and before they know it, they get Sparta Kicked off the stage, where they get a big giant thunder boot to the face.

If only I could tournament with you guys.

 

[Aesir]

Oh if only.

 

[Jack Kieser]

Oh my god ANDROID THOR! We are so screwed.