gantrain05
Smash Master
sorry about that but i read like 4 pages of this and its all over the place, but yeah i know chaos theory but im still confused on how you guys are using it to prove melee playstyle becoming stagnant.
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Scar on the Melee vs Brawl debate: What does competitive really mean?
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-Wolfy-
Smash Champion
It's more to prove the point that as long as there are X number of people who play the game, there will be room for variation, and in turn, advances in the meta game, not to prove the point that it stagnates.
I'm pretty sure he wanted Melee and 64 to be like that too.
He must've been shocked to hear people turn off item and play on flat stages.
If we could turn off items in Mario Kart we'd do that too.
The thing Sakurai and many of us seem to misunderstand is developers don't get to choose how competitive a game is.
We do.
If you want to win in a contest of skill you compete.
Shield lag when hit is a lot lower now. Ganon can literally walk across the stage shielding arrows to Pit and tilt him with his surprisingly long range. Not to mention take an arrow up close and punish him with a grab.
Rolling works here too, especially considering length-wise all stages seem shorter. Pit does not have megaman's arm cannon. It's easily dodgable with any character who can see it coming, and to us SWF goers who often have frames at our disposal, we'll be able to move in quickly recognizing the lag time of Pit's weakest arrow (startup and end) and keep this option as minimal as possible showing it does not work against a smart player.
Ridiculous ease against ridiculously easy edge guarders perhaps.
Mind games still shut many a player down. Hanging on the edge knowing knowing a character can make it just a bit past the edge and bairing them just as they try.
The sweet spot can actually work to an advantage when jumping out for air koing and making it back.
Of course for characters that have recoveries that allow untouchable height before returning there's always the landing. They have to come down sometime, and the lack of directional air dodging makes most nairs on a landing recovery send opponents right back out and even farther.
The floatiness of Brawl helps the knockback in this aspect.
A spaced or retreating short hop does well despite the lag, if hit is successful watch for reaction and pursue. If shielded or spot dodged, hitting the ground make your characters hit box smaller than it was in attack and give you time to retreat or give another short hopped attack.
If you are coming in on a camper full jumping and you're giving him enough time to stop camping, run under you/ close enough to side aerial , and attack you in anyway, you need consider your options in attacking before they get to close since at full jump most aerials auto cancel lag, or fast fall dodging. The floatiness should give you more than enough time to react.
I apologize if it seemed that way.
I was just using that as an example of saying there really is no need for us as a community to take preference in either or.
If an individual wants to do that fine, but it shouldn't be brought up in a point like it's something we need mandatory.
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
That's right, but I think what we're forgetting is that there is only room for variation; variation, regardless of player base size, is in no way inevitable, and there is a reason for this. Chaos Theory states that in certain evolving systems, expected outcomes border more on the seemingly random with time, but (in terms of our current argument) is this system really evolving? I argue that it isn't.
Allow me to elaborate. I argue that the competitive Melee system is not evolving, but instead is just growing larger (Brawl aside). You see, Melee would be the actual system in this case, but Melee isn't evolving at all! The game, in and of itself, isn't changing; our perceptions of Melee, on the other hand, are changing, and this is why chaos theory doesn't apply the way we think it should. You see, the 'evolution' of the system (in this case, Melee's metagame) is not dependent on the changing of the system (because Melee cannot change; the game disk, from now on, will remain static), it is dependent on our understanding of the system as it is, and as such is reliant on and proportional to said understanding.
We can grow in numbers forever, but if the influx of new players is devoid of individuals capable of understanding Melee in new and unthought of ways, no changes will be made to the system (these individuals being 'the Chudats, the Captain Jacks. The Bums and the Tajs'). This is why I take the stance I do; I have observed over the years that we (people) are more inclined to imitation than to independent (or dynamic) thought, so it seems natural that eventually we will use all of our intellectual resources up and will think of Melee in less and less new ways.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
they just accidentally got melee right
Because there are plenty of people who have the inexplicable argument "Melee is dead, Brawl is better, so abandon Melee." At the same time, simply preferring Melee will not do much good if the rest of the community is set on hosting Brawl tournaments (which is the situation for a decent number of regions).
Adi
Smash Lord
All these arguments are really redundant and unnecessary. At this point we either have to hope that Brawl's metagame evolves into something "more competitive" or the tournament organizers decide to eventually switch to Melee. The arguments have been said and done and there's nothing to gain from mindlessly bantering on about it.
Proverbs
Smash Lord
Ankoku, you host tournaments in your region correct? Im pretty sure I heard your doing only Brawl right now. Have you ever thought about adding in Melee WITH Brawl just so maybe some of the newer players could have a chance to play both and see if maybe they want to play more than JUST Brawl?
Mr.Victory07
Smash Lord
Well like they say, they only thing garunteed to kill you is aging
Aesir
Smash Master
Starvation, Dehydration, taking a bath in boiling hot oil, falling into a flood of magma.
The list goes on.
Ban3
Smash Journeyman
you could survive....
Have YOU ever known someone that fell into a river of lava and survived?
Ban3
Smash Journeyman
nope but many people live in poor places are hungry and they survive but i see what u mean
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
...Bender jumped into a pool of lava to save Fry's fossilized dog, and he survived. Does that count?
#HBC | Red Ryu
Red Fox Warrior
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I'd think the original question is entirely pointless.
I originally jumped into this discussion due to people implying Brawl was horrible in every aspect and their word was law.
The more and more I post, it just seems like it's pointless. Both games have differences, but not to the degree of saying one is more competitive or skillful when it just seems like it's a preference.
Do you like Fast Melee or do you like slowed down Brawl?
Jack Kieser
Smash Champion
So, wait. I just want to make sure: is the 'chaos theory' discussion over? Because at least it was actual logical debate, which frankly is better than what was recently happening in this thread; I was enjoying that thread of thought. [insert_sad_face]
I still want to go back to the mathmatically calculated competitivitiy thing from a while back >.>
-Wolfy-
Smash Champion
Chaos theory was fun, I think it's a good jumping-off-point for the progression of this debate.
Best thing you can do when you aren't sure how to proceed, is to recap what we know about each side of the debate, and make assertions based on those facts. Like what made Melee competitive? What kept people coming to Melee tournaments through its 7+ year life span? What happened between Smash 64 and Melee? What is the perceived greatest flaw with Brawl? What does it have that Melee doesn't? What would actually happen in one of those suggested scenarios where people do flip back to Melee, or everyone flips forward to Brawl?
There is so much middle ground in conflict, as well as parallel conflicts that help stir up the dust to a point where things continually regress into primal Casual V Competitive debates.
Best thing you can do when you aren't sure how to proceed, is to recap what we know about each side of the debate, and make assertions based on those facts. Like what made Melee competitive? What kept people coming to Melee tournaments through its 7+ year life span? What happened between Smash 64 and Melee? What is the perceived greatest flaw with Brawl? What does it have that Melee doesn't? What would actually happen in one of those suggested scenarios where people do flip back to Melee, or everyone flips forward to Brawl?
There is so much middle ground in conflict, as well as parallel conflicts that help stir up the dust to a point where things continually regress into primal Casual V Competitive debates.
Rex+
Smash Ace
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
Reading this I wonder have some of you played any other fighting games besides smash. Street fighter, Melty Blood, KOF, etc have plenty of advance techs that are hard to do and still return in the next game. Anyone who thinks wavedashing is a glitch and is unfair is a noob that is just to lazy to practice or just never played melee.
I taught my friend how too wavedash and hes never even played Smash. It so simple to do. Its not even groundbreaking, you just slide.
I love both games but brawl definty has less depth because you are so restrited and its hard to go beyond the games limits of "tech skill". The game is also so much more unbalance. Yes in Melee 5 characterswho won tourneys but thats because the same people went too and won the F***ing tourneys. In brawl characters like Meta, ToonL, G@W, Falco, ROB, and Olimar,D3,Snake are so much better than the rest of the cast , and because of the game speed/hit stun characters like peach, sheik, and sonic dont stand a chance and lets not even talk about gannon. So many beginners look at melee and say that advance techs are cheap and say that brawl gives them a chance. Let them go to a brawl tourney.... I promise you they will still get rocked.
The problem is so many casuals dont understand what a fighting game is, Brawl is not one, its a party game. dont believe me, read sakurai's interviews.
I taught my friend how too wavedash and hes never even played Smash. It so simple to do. Its not even groundbreaking, you just slide.I love both games but brawl definty has less depth because you are so restrited and its hard to go beyond the games limits of "tech skill". The game is also so much more unbalance. Yes in Melee 5 characterswho won tourneys but thats because the same people went too and won the F***ing tourneys. In brawl characters like Meta, ToonL, G@W, Falco, ROB, and Olimar,D3,Snake are so much better than the rest of the cast , and because of the game speed/hit stun characters like peach, sheik, and sonic dont stand a chance and lets not even talk about gannon. So many beginners look at melee and say that advance techs are cheap and say that brawl gives them a chance. Let them go to a brawl tourney.... I promise you they will still get rocked.
The problem is so many casuals dont understand what a fighting game is, Brawl is not one, its a party game. dont believe me, read sakurai's interviews.
He says the same thing about Melee.
Ghost07
Smash Journeyman
true but it didnt turn out that way.
I meant it by the way he wanted the game developed.
sorry if its confusing...lol..all my fault.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
Sakurai always wanted Smash to be a party game, just look at the cast. Most competitive fighting games don't have matches between cute green dinosaurs and pink puffballs, it just wouldn't seem like a fighter. The real question is what will Brawl become, and why.
Tekken has a yoshi knock off, a panda(alt color) a kangaroo and a fighting wooden dummy. The characters have nothing to do with it.
The Halloween Captain
Smash Master
True, but Smash capitalizes on the obsession little kids have with their favorite video game characters, and has you battle on oddly-shaped stages that have random elements. Also - bob-ombs. Reguardless of what Smash becomes, it was intended first and foremost as a party game - the zaniest fighter on earth.
The cast has nothing to do with it. The premise was simply a lot of popular Nintendo characters fighting each other. The approach toward gameplay is what determines its competitive qualities.
flyinfilipino
Smash Master
Yes, we know that Smash Bros. is a crazy game.
Pink Reaper: I don't host tournaments during the summer.
Anakin Skywalker. =O
But Jack, I see what you're saying when you stated that a larger community doesn't necessarily mean there will be more statistical outliers like Chudat, Wobbles, etc. I was merely saying that the larger the community, the greater the chance of it happening.
You're right when you say emulation is the norm when it comes to these situations, but the very nature of dynamic systems allows for, if not guarantees, variation.
True, 100% stagnation is unlikely, but indefinite moderate stagnation into highly similar playstyles is equally unlikely.
P.S: Reaper, you're thinking of Rofa / Vayseth.
Psshh, nitpicker.
-Wolfy-
Smash Champion
Well look how well he turned out after only falling next to it?
Worst case scenario, he comes out of the lava-river in a wheel chair.
I'd put even money on that.[/spam]
Worst case scenario, he comes out of the lava-river in a wheel chair.
I'd put even money on that.[/spam]
Nigerian Star Storm
Smash Ace
****ing win for the futurama reference.
LOL_Master
Smash Lord
so we should listen to what sakurai wants us to do, which is sucka$$ at a game
Skler
Smash Master
I don't even know what you guys are talking about anymore, so I'll guess it's still about play styles.
Melee play styles are not stagnating, because cookie-cutter play doesn't work. It is easy to counter a fox who drill shines everywhere or a sheik that relies on CGs, there are no blatantly broken strategies. The lack of a broken tactic means that players are encouraged to try new things because they haven't found something that works all the time. There are plenty of low tier players in melee that attend tournaments and manage to do fine because of a unique style. Even Fox and Falco players have noticeably different styles. Look at Eggm's falco and then look at PC's falco. One is really campy and one is really aggressive, they use the same character in different ways and both get great results. Melee still has tons of different styles and there is no obvious "best" style.
If anything Brawl play styles are stagnating because of how shallow it is. Almost everybody camps and they all do it in a very similar fashion. The only thing that really stands out is how well they camp, and that's mostly prediction/experience. You won't see any brilliant DK player breaking into the top 5 of a huge Brawl tournament because DK gets ***** by campers, causing nobody to play DK. People (that go to tournaments) don't bother with the low tiers because of how badly they get *****, and those who do try the low tiers don't make it into the top 10% or anywhere near there.
As far as styles with the same character goes, just look at videos of the best Brawl players who use the same character. For example, take a look at two really good snake players, cort and pc chris. Both of them are really good, and in order to be that good they have the same exact play style. Almost every snake plays the way they do because it is (currently) the best style. Who wants to play a game where you have to play just like everyone else who uses your character in order to do well?
My point is Melee play is far from stagnating while Brawl is already becoming a game where although it's pretty obvious what my opponent is going to do, there just isn't a good way to counter it. Each character has one obvious best style (most of which are camp) and it's just really boring.
Melee play styles are not stagnating, because cookie-cutter play doesn't work. It is easy to counter a fox who drill shines everywhere or a sheik that relies on CGs, there are no blatantly broken strategies. The lack of a broken tactic means that players are encouraged to try new things because they haven't found something that works all the time. There are plenty of low tier players in melee that attend tournaments and manage to do fine because of a unique style. Even Fox and Falco players have noticeably different styles. Look at Eggm's falco and then look at PC's falco. One is really campy and one is really aggressive, they use the same character in different ways and both get great results. Melee still has tons of different styles and there is no obvious "best" style.
If anything Brawl play styles are stagnating because of how shallow it is. Almost everybody camps and they all do it in a very similar fashion. The only thing that really stands out is how well they camp, and that's mostly prediction/experience. You won't see any brilliant DK player breaking into the top 5 of a huge Brawl tournament because DK gets ***** by campers, causing nobody to play DK. People (that go to tournaments) don't bother with the low tiers because of how badly they get *****, and those who do try the low tiers don't make it into the top 10% or anywhere near there.
As far as styles with the same character goes, just look at videos of the best Brawl players who use the same character. For example, take a look at two really good snake players, cort and pc chris. Both of them are really good, and in order to be that good they have the same exact play style. Almost every snake plays the way they do because it is (currently) the best style. Who wants to play a game where you have to play just like everyone else who uses your character in order to do well?
My point is Melee play is far from stagnating while Brawl is already becoming a game where although it's pretty obvious what my opponent is going to do, there just isn't a good way to counter it. Each character has one obvious best style (most of which are camp) and it's just really boring.
Endless Nightmares
Smash Master
Brilliant DKs actually have broken into the top 5 of huge Brawl tournaments >_>
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