Rebanning stages

[jugfingers]

That's all well and good for those games and it works very well for them. Smash on the other hand isn't even close to those games so it is like comparing apples to oranges.

there are a lot of similarities between apples and oranges.

 

[Pink Reaper]

As someone who has spent 3 months straight with Onett as the only stage on random i can safely say that stage is broken beyond repair.

I have always wanted to see an expanded doubles stage list however.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

What!? Onett is so good! There are multiple paths over every wall so there are ways around bair camping, the walk off edges are basically unimportant as the areas outside the houses is comparable to off-stage on neutrals, and the colors are really well done.

 

[Pink Reaper]

Onett is literally my favorite stage in Smash. Doesnt change the fact that Fox is loldum on that stage. So is puff for that matter.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

... And I've seen no reason why its banned other than at one point the stage was considered a "gay" counterpick for fox

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

so many of the stage bans are stupid and ridicoulus, its just "THE STAGE IS DUMB I DONT WANT TO PLAY BAN KTHNXBAI"

 

[Plairnkk]

corneria - stupid and promotes camping. ship moves slightly often which can ruin people's recoveries. random lasers. wall infinites + absurdly low ceiling.
lost a match today on corneria because of random laser, should never happen

jungle japes. absolutely ******** level. again promotes camping and randomness. Anything that just one hit kills is absurd. you can say "watch for the clap trap!" but at any point you could get thrown down there, shined, anything.

foxs castle+onnett=lol

mute city=lol too. lets just give a character an autoban so you can practice brinstar and **** people there. then even if they ban brinstar instead of mute city the level is actually -so- broken that you still **** there


the game has changed to the point that players are technical enough to abuse stages to the point of no return. It used to be fine because nobody was as fast as they are today to take advantage of these imbalances in stages.

In a game that continues to change and evolve you need to conform your rules to meet the evolved standard of the game. If something wasn't broken, but proves itself to be because of advances in technical abilities etc, then that doesn't mean we just say "well oh well, I guess that's cool to just keep it legal since its hard to wall infinite blah blah. Every newbie fox would learn it and people would lose matches they don't deserve to lose.


Pokefloats is the most stupid stage in the world. Whoever decided it was a good idea to make that a tournament viable stage was on crack. Does anyone lose a set on pokefloats and think "wow man, great set, I had a blast"? No you're probably leaving saying either A.) GOD **** POKEFLOATS or B.) i took him to pokefloats and still lost because i'm a total scrub, i totally hate myself

 

[Devil Ray]

i don't completely like how plank phrased it, but i agree with him. Pound4 rulesets was one of the best steps towards efficient tournament stage sets in the history of the game.

 

[clowsui]

corneria - stupid and promotes camping. ship moves slightly often which can ruin people's recoveries. random lasers. wall infinites + absurdly low ceiling.
lost a match today on corneria because of random laser, should never happen

"Promotes camping"
I don't understand what's wrong with a game if it promotes camping. There are time/efficiency issues w/ the tournament to be sure but that's why when you plan you account for the longest scenario possible. I realize that's not your only reason for banning the stage but I wanted to point out this kind of thinking is not what you're looking for when you're removing stages.

Has any testing even been done on this stage? Are there any patterns to the ship movement/lasers? What about escaping wall infinites, is that possible? How low is the ceiling exactly at different points in the stage? I think Corneria is bannable also because it degenerates into spacy battles and whoever controls the right side with a percent lead gives the person approaching a slippery slope, but it'd be nice to know whether we have complete data.

jungle japes. absolutely ******** level. again promotes camping and randomness. Anything that just one hit kills is absurd. you can say "watch for the clap trap!" but at any point you could get thrown down there, shined, anything.

Need to see data sets for this stage. Does the klap trap have a set pattern? How escapable is the water? Is there a slippery slope at any point? Is Circle Camping possible on this stage? How high is the ceiling? etc.

Is Fox overcentralizing on here or are there certain characters that can combat him, feasibly? Can I see some examples? Essentially with this kind of comprehensive approach is what I'm looking for with regards to banning stages. It's not good for the game for you to pre-emptively ban anything without testing/data etc. because it's always easier to remove things than add them in a competitive community.

foxs castle+onnett=lol

Agreed, Peach's Castle has a pseudo-circle camp thing going on with Fox I'm pretty sure + slippery slope for anybody trying to approach someone w/ a lead who is on the opposite side. Onett overcentralizes to Fox dittos.

mute city=lol too. lets just give a character an autoban so you can practice brinstar and **** people there. then even if they ban brinstar instead of mute city the level is actually -so- broken that you still **** there

THIS is what I have a large issue with. Mute City doesn't even come close to overcentralizing - Fox, Falco, Marth, Peach, Falcon, Jiggs are all solid on here, BASED ON THE DATA WE HAVE. I think there are even more that wouldn't mind this stage (Doc? Ganon? etc.) Matchups on this stage aren't even anywhere close to being just Peach/Jiggs dittos. This stage is really good for Peach and Jiggs to be sure, to the point where it improves their even matchups to advantaged matchups and makes their disadvantaged matchups even or in their favor, but can other characters compete on here? Sure!

It may very well be that Peach and Jigglypuff are overcentralizing on Mute City, but up until now we've seen MULTIPLE characters have success on this stage. Is there any recent sort of result/testing to prove otherwise?

the game has changed to the point that players are technical enough to abuse stages to the point of no return. It used to be fine because nobody was as fast as they are today to take advantage of these imbalances in stages.

In a game that continues to change and evolve you need to conform your rules to meet the evolved standard of the game. If something wasn't broken, but proves itself to be because of advances in technical abilities etc, then that doesn't mean we just say "well oh well, I guess that's cool to just keep it legal since its hard to wall infinite blah blah. Every newbie fox would learn it and people would lose matches they don't deserve to lose.

How can you say that people are fast enough to take advantage of the imbalances in stages nowadays when they haven't even been played on recently in tournaments? You can bring up as many friendlies and money matches as you want but until they are being systematically tested within controlled-variable situations or winning tournaments, nothing's conclusive.

In fact, have there been any comprehensive research threads done about any of these stages? E.g. multiple tests done for when hazards occur, when stage shifts occur, any sort of possible escape methods for inescapable/highly advantageous tactics, how low the ceiling is, etc.? If there is such research I'd like to see it.

Pokefloats is the most stupid stage in the world. Whoever decided it was a good idea to make that a tournament viable stage was on crack. Does anyone lose a set on pokefloats and think "wow man, great set, I had a blast"? No you're probably leaving saying either A.) GOD **** POKEFLOATS or B.) i took him to pokefloats and still lost because i'm a total scrub, i totally hate myself

None of this part of the post convinces me why you should ban Poke Floats.

 

[Skler]

Pokefloats pretty much has circle camping broken up periodically by a pokemon you can't just run away on. It's stupid easy to avoid your opponent and pew pew pew. It's that simple.

No other characters, sans Peach, compete on Mute City if Jigglypuff is involved. The reason? It's a tiny stage with no ledges. Hit them off, charge up a roll out or wait them to recover on stage and rest their ***. If they bounce off the bottom just rest them and take the 10(?) damage for bouncing off the bottom. It basically has Brinstar's lava + no edges + high ceiling + tiny platform making aerial mobility even MORE important. This isn't even mentioning the cars that, while you can see them coming, randomly collide and slow down so they will **** you up even if you're trying to dodge them.

I'm pretty sure Peach's castle is broken because of Marth's tower. He can stab the entire world while standing next to the wall. You can't approach him.

I could see more stages being allowed in teams (Termina is silly but not broken, Jungle Japes becomes a lot less campy even though there's still the stupid Klap Trap, Corneria is ok in teams), but there are good reasons to ban the stages that are banned. Any stage based around camping is no longer a problem in teams. That fixes Corneria, Pokefloats (though seel is still stupid), Termina, Jungle Japes and even Hyrule Temple (LOL) to a certain extent. I think you can probably still circle camp on Hyrule in teams, it was just a silly thought.

...

time to unban Hyrule for teams.

 

[xbombr]

My question:

If you know Seel is ********, and you know what part of him is ********, then why the hell do you need to ban the stage?

It's common knowledge that Seel is ******** and you can fall through him. Just because it's counterintuitive visually doesn't mean that you don't know that you'll die by walking accross a certain part of Seel. Treat Seel as a ledge. If you walk of the ledge, you die. If you walk accross Seel's neck, then you die.

Fox can camp there, sure. The other characters aren't broken on there and Fox really isn't either the way he's usually played, imo. Who cares if some asshats time out a match every now and then, it's irrelevant to the way that 99% of the community plays the game. Camping isn't banned, so a stage promoting camping shouldn't be banned. It's a backasswards approach to fixing a problem. If camping is a problem, then ban camping, don't ban the thing that facilitates it. That's like making crackpipes illegal, but not crack itself.

Bring Floats back at the very least.

 

[Dragoon Fighter]

I believe Brinstar depth is more fair than pokeflots and brinstar depths should be counter pick.

 

[Armada]

Mute city <3

Why are that stage not allowed?
Is Peach to good?

No she´s not.
I guees this coming from 2006 or something when Peach players won at MC beacuse people play so bad against her and then said she is/was broken.

Peach is not to good at that stage not even close SPECIALLY not in Ntsc.

The other stages (in that list) is too gay and everyone camping like hell beacuase that is the only way to win.

My rule set

Neutral
FD
Dreamland
YS
Battel Field
FoD

CP
PS
Mute
Brinstar

I know all people will say this is broken but seriously this is not broken.

If everyone can ban 1 stage they will ban MC or brinstar against Peach and then she have 1 stage left (of them).

Marth: YS, Battlefield, Fod and FD against Falco/fox/Peach
Sheik- All stages is at least ok no one is bad for her
Fox Bad at Brinstar and MC is not a favorite but the rest is really good.
Falco: Same for him
CF All neutrals + PS (maybe Mc against a couple chars?)

I wanna say Dr M and samus have more choices with my rule set to.
I am not sure (i don´t play Dr M) but i think Dr M can do some good stuff against Fox/falco at brinstar.
The lava is so bad for fox/falco so that can help him a lot against fastfallers

The second best ruleset is only neutrals (and PS).

 

[TheManaLord]

My question:

If you know Seel is ********, and you know what part of him is ********, then why the hell do you need to ban the stage?

It's common knowledge that Seel is ******** and you can fall through him. Just because it's counterintuitive visually doesn't mean that you don't know that you'll die by walking accross a certain part of Seel. Treat Seel as a ledge. If you walk of the ledge, you die. If you walk accross Seel's neck, then you die.

Fox can camp there, sure. The other characters aren't broken on there and Fox really isn't either the way he's usually played, imo. Who cares if some asshats time out a match every now and then, it's irrelevant to the way that 99% of the community plays the game. Camping isn't banned, so a stage promoting camping shouldn't be banned. It's a backasswards approach to fixing a problem. If camping is a problem, then ban camping, don't ban the thing that facilitates it. That's like making crackpipes illegal, but not crack itself.

Bring Floats back at the very least.

It's also very common knowledge you can fall through PS. No difference. The stage itself is gay as **** and completely breaks out of the gameplay we're trying to maintain consistent.

 

[Skler]

Fox can camp there, sure. The other characters aren't broken on there and Fox really isn't either the way he's usually played, imo. Who cares if some asshats time out a match every now and then, it's irrelevant to the way that 99% of the community plays the game. .

Any one player can get an autowin by picking Fox and (if the other player doesn't also pick Fox) running away on Pokefloats. If it works then everyone will start doing that for the free win. You're basically saying "learn Fox or you auto-lose one game every set unless you waste your ban or the other player is too honorable to camp with Fox."


@Armada- you didn't address the cars, lack of edges and general retardedness of Mute (the size of the platform given, having a laggy upB meaning you can't really recover, etc). All you said is "Peach isn't Fox/Falco/Sheik and thus deserves two really great counterpicks." That is not a good reason to allow a stage. If you're using characters as reasons to legalize stages we should legalize all walkoff edges to make Pichu and Pikachu more viable.

I see you also took out RC for no given reason. Is its lack of hazards and randomness a problem in tournaments?

 

[S l o X]

/deleted before infraction

nah but real talk, stage list is fine.

 

[Plairnkk]

also i've noticed a trend in everyone saying that i am the one who decided on the pound 4 ruleset so i just did stuff that i personally felt was fair for everyone. i didnt actually create any of the rules in the pound 4 ruleset... it was just the agreed upon melee back room stage list, and since i agreed with it, i decided to implement it. it is now called pound 4 ruleset more or less because i used it first, NOT because i created it.


my ideal ruleset would be neutrals only

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Why is everyone trying to balance the ruleset to make it fair reflecting the current tier list? That is not what a ruleset is for guys. Judge on competitively fair, not based on how well characters do on the stage.

 

[Tero.]

I'm going to throw a big party if Onett will be legal again.
Everyone's invited, I'm paying it from my Apex winnings.

 

[S l o X]

Tero your going to Apex!?

**** now I'm really missing out - on sex.

 

[Armada]

Skler: I agree my post suck.
I guees i have saying the same thing about this stuff too many times so i just say the same thing all the time (because it dosen´t matter there).

I agree the "reason" i gave you suck.

The thing i meant is following things.

For me all "playable" chars will still be playable chars.
You can having more or less "playable" chars but that depends on the ruleset.

For me topp 11 (or around) is playable and we will have a ruleset so everyone who "should" be playable still are that.

The cars at MC is not a big problem.
I have played that stage many times (with many chars) and i have never problems with the cars people just have to learn the stage and how you will play to having the controll.

And no edges is not a reason to ban a stage.

But Corneria Onett (and more gay stages) is so ****ing good for Fox.
My point is EVEN if corneria and MC (for example) are even i a commentition perspective (they are not that and i will give you reasons) you have to ban a stage like Corneria before MC.

With Corneria,Onett, RC fox have way to many stages to play and he is a so godd char.
If we wanna have a metagame with many chars my ruleset is a good way to handle that.

Having Corneria becuase Pika and Dk like that is for me a bad reason (sorry Axe ) and i will tell you why.
In Sweden (with "pika/dk"ruleset) we have 1 dk and 0 pika in more than 5 years.
I am not sure but i don´t think no one ever have played pika like a main char ever in europe and we having 1 dk.

This chars are "too bad" (you are awesome Axe =) to adapt the ruleset after them.

So for me we will giving the focus to the chars how actually are "good enough" to winning.

Reasons why we sholdn´t having Corneria (or this kind of stages):
- You have to camp
- The airship is way to gay is unpredictible and is many times the dirrerence between the winner/loser.
Thats true i have seen many set when the winners have so much lucky with the air ship.
-Fox

Why MC will be a allowed stage:
- No one have "free winning"
-Not that lucky part like Corneria (learn to play the stage and stop johing about the cars)
- More chars will be playable

My question is why will someone baning MC?

I hope i have gave you some anwsers (and sorry for the last post i wrote that one was really bad).

 

[Tero.]

Tero your going to Apex!?

**** now I'm really missing out - on sex.

Hell no, I was obviously joking.
I suck too much at smash to spend that much money on plane tickets.

 

[S l o X]

Looks like I'll have to fly to you! One day!

Reasons why we sholdn´t having Corneria (or this kind of stages):
- You have to camp
- The airship is way to gay is unpredictible and is many times the dirrerence between the winner/loser.
Thats true i have seen many set when the winners have so much lucky with the air ship.
-Fox

Why MC will be a allowed stage:
- No one have "free winning"
-Not that lucky part like Corneria (learn to play the stage and stop johing about the cars)
- More chars will be playable

/inexperienced opinions
You don't NEED to camp on Corneria. Starwing / lasers are just as bad as cars. They are avoidable but are a nuisance. I really doubt that getting hit by one laser / car could entirely effect the outcome of a match. More characters being playable on a stage doesn't matter. (26 characters, all playable homie) It's a counterpick for a reason. Stages aren't banned or not banned because how much they help or don't help characters, they are banned because of the solidarity or evenness in general. You also didn't address the fact that you left off RC from your list. What's wrong with RC? No cars to hit you. No randomness etc . . . ? MC = Brinstar. We don't need TWO Brinstars to help floaties just because all the peach mains will say that it's not a good stage. (lol)

but I would be fine with Neutrals only.
/inexperiencedopinions

 

[Armada]

- You need to camp
-You can´t compare lasers and cars they are 2 totally dirrent stuff.
- That´s matter. If only 1 char is playable that´s something wrong

My reason why RC not will be a tournament stage is because of Fox.
All this Fox stages is to much.
Ban stages becuase of chars is too good is ok is you ask me



But we need 3 stages with good platforms for Marth? (example).

 

[_Rocky_]

I really doubt that getting hit by one laser / car could entirely effect the outcome of a match.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IlzZ9VOygXw#t=4m47s

 

[WarriorKnight]

Why is everyone trying to balance the ruleset to make it fair reflecting the current tier list? That is not what a ruleset is for guys. Judge on competitively fair, not based on how well characters do on the stage.

I agree with this Man 100%

BTW!! I want Japes, mute city, and floats.

 

[Peki]

Any peach player saying that corneria should be banned and mute city not is 110% bull****.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

there's to many stages that are banned in smash simple because people dont like them.

 

[Plairnkk]

there's to many stages that are banned in smash simple because people dont like them.

that's a pretty easy way to cop out of a debate. Yes they are banned because "people don't like them".



BUT YEA HEY WE DON'T LIKE THEM JUST CUZ WE DON'T LIKE THEM. NO REAL REASON, THESE STAGES ARE TOTALLY FAIR, WE JUST DON'T LIKE THEM.

 

[Ben-Teezee]

corneria - stupid and promotes camping. ship moves slightly often which can ruin people's recoveries. random lasers. wall infinites + absurdly low ceiling.
lost a match today on corneria because of random laser, should never happen

jungle japes. absolutely ******** level. again promotes camping and randomness. Anything that just one hit kills is absurd. you can say "watch for the clap trap!" but at any point you could get thrown down there, shined, anything.

foxs castle+onnett=lol

mute city=lol too. lets just give a character an autoban so you can practice brinstar and **** people there. then even if they ban brinstar instead of mute city the level is actually -so- broken that you still **** there


the game has changed to the point that players are technical enough to abuse stages to the point of no return. It used to be fine because nobody was as fast as they are today to take advantage of these imbalances in stages.

In a game that continues to change and evolve you need to conform your rules to meet the evolved standard of the game. If something wasn't broken, but proves itself to be because of advances in technical abilities etc, then that doesn't mean we just say "well oh well, I guess that's cool to just keep it legal since its hard to wall infinite blah blah. Every newbie fox would learn it and people would lose matches they don't deserve to lose.


Pokefloats is the most stupid stage in the world. Whoever decided it was a good idea to make that a tournament viable stage was on crack. Does anyone lose a set on pokefloats and think "wow man, great set, I had a blast"? No you're probably leaving saying either A.) GOD **** POKEFLOATS or B.) i took him to pokefloats and still lost because i'm a total scrub, i totally hate myself

first off every single explanation started wit the following: stupid, ********, lol, most stupid....

2nd: al ur stages have "promotes camping" in the explanation. How ppl play the game should ONLY be determined by the player, because you dont like camping does not give you the RIGHT to take those stages away from them.

now ill adress ur points individually.

corneria: random lasers i agree with. Wall infinites. how can YOU, a shiek main, have a prob with infinites when u can chaingrab half the cast. Ice Climbers can infinite half the cast, peach can chaingrab spacies up to 100%, but because fox can do it without grabs on ONLY one stage its a bannable offense? dont agree.
Low ceiling how can u have a prob with this? How can u dislike a low ceiling then dislike camping as well. so basically u want huge stages that allow you to live well over 160%? the big stages on the current list: Dreamland, FoD, Kongo. Small Stages: Yoshis (some would argue pokemon goes here as well but i say it more in the middle like battlefield than it is to the extreme that is yoshis and corneria). Why should floaty characters get a jail outta free card when it comes to their one weakness early vertical deaths?
There Needs to be more low ceiling stages to counter characters with weak vertical weight but great horizontal defense such as jiggs, peach and samus.

Mute City: first off all the argument that it gets auto banned and then brin is auto win is dumb. brinstar is not an auto win vs anyone except maybe 1 or 2 chars. 2nd the argument that mute is auto win is dumb. the stage's pattern and cars are all on a set pattern, and no edges/no platforms is not a reason to ban the stage.

Jungle Japes. Claptrap can be smash DI'd AND techd. I should make warriorknight make a video of him just smash DI klaptrap and landing ON the stage. no Tech or nothing. the rapids are completely controllable. and how do u camp on a stage as a spacie when theres an edge everywhere? if u can punish camping on dreamland/pokemon/final D, u should be more than able to punish it on Jungle Japes.

Same can be said for pokefloats
with no edge all u have do is knock him outta his lasers and its bye bye spacie. the stage is on a set rotation the same as RC, and nothing is RANDOM at all.
most of the time when ppl have the reactions you list, is because they didnt take the time to LEARN the ****ing stage. you can have a compelling set on RC, brinstar or kongo just like pokefloats, or you can have the same reaction wow i got taken to a counterpick because u didnt bother to learn the stage.


TL;DR: DO NOT BAN STAGES BECAUSE YOU DONT WANT TO LEARN IT, DONT LIKE CAMPING, DONT LIKE FOX. BAN STAGES BECAUSE THEY ARE NOT VIABLE COMPETITIVELY.

Again my solution from the first post:

bring back almost all if not all the stages and allow TWO bans.

2nd solution: allow all these stages for teams since ya such babies ill never see them again in singles.

 

[Teczer0]

Personally I'm on the fence with MC being legal or not. I don't personally think that its insanely broken. You're forced to fight on the portion where the stage is lifted and forced to retreat on the parts where its lowered. The stage gives more than enough time than necessary to avoid the cars.

The 2 issues I have with Corneria is that there is a giant wall to overcome, making it extremely difficult to catch a camping opponent. A Fox can very easily react to their opponent's movements and run away.

The other is that the starship shootings are random it also comes from the background and you can't tell who its going to shoot at unless you're at 2 opposite ends (Or far away pretty much) from each other.

MC has no random elements, its 100% predictable and there are no giant barriers to overcome. Just periodic moments of camping.

I think at a competitive standpoint MC should be legal before Corneria. Don't mind them being both banned though.

 

[Armada]

Any peach player saying that corneria should be banned and mute city not is 110% bull****.

?

Ahh you are (maybe was) a fox player

You can´t compare this stages.
But its fun when people still trying to do that =).

 

[X1-12]

corneria: random lasers i agree with. Wall infinites. how can YOU, a shiek main, have a prob with infinites when u can chaingrab half the cast. Ice Climbers can infinite half the cast, peach can chaingrab spacies up to 100%, but because fox can do it without grabs on ONLY one stage its a bannable offense? dont agree.

lol, comparing chain grabbing with infinites.

 

[Pengie]

To my knowledge you can't even waveshine people against the wall on Corneria because it's slanted so wallshining is not an issue.

edit: yep just tested it Wavshining against the wall on Corneria does not raise the consecutive hits counter meaning that they can do something before getting shined again.

 

[EPsilon933]

the game has changed to the point that players are technical enough to abuse stages to the point of no return. It used to be fine because nobody was as fast as they are today to take advantage of these imbalances in stages.

Every newbie fox would learn it and people would lose matches they don't deserve to lose.

I wish I had tech skill, but I don't need tech skill to **** like this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kTChxLNteW8
Now compared my win there to a neutral stage like
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K8Jo3kDkmXU
Now that's abusing a stage to he point of no return.

So if I play Fox vs you on Corneria, I can win? But really, you're exaggerating how good Corneria is for Fox.

 

[INSANE CARZY GUY]

that's a pretty easy way to cop out of a debate. Yes they are banned because "people don't like them".



BUT YEA HEY WE DON'T LIKE THEM JUST CUZ WE DON'T LIKE THEM. NO REAL REASON, THESE STAGES ARE TOTALLY FAIR, WE JUST DON'T LIKE THEM.

brinstar depths f*** all of you guys. I used to hate KJ64 sooooo much now I'm thinking of using it for a counter pick a lot because pichu in the middle can avoid so many attacks and camp a few people to death so it's impossible for them to win. stop b****. Also I hate MC because I hate peach and I can't ban the small stages I need to win if I ban MC and I will lose hard no matter what I do there.

but MC is more legal than PF by far.

 

[Plairnkk]

i want to destroy your everything right now ben-teezee because you are actually the least intelligent person I have ever seen post anything in the history of smashboards. You play a game for a year and think you know anything, you know nothing about tournaments so shut your mouth you stupid scrub. If you are relying and your scrubtastic counterpicks to win sets against other scrubs and place a bit less scrubby then you are indeed the biggest scrub. I hate you and hope you are hit by a bus.

Love,

Plank.





I would have actually picked your entire argument apart piece by piece but so many things were so ******** that it would've taken forever. Furthermore everyone reading your argument realizes that you are, indeed, a ******. Just because my arguments are degrading does not make them less valid. You stupid ****** dumby.



minus the bus hit.

 

[xbombr]

Any one player can get an autowin by picking Fox and (if the other player doesn't also pick Fox) running away on Pokefloats. If it works then everyone will start doing that for the free win. You're basically saying "learn Fox or you auto-lose one game every set unless you waste your ban or the other player is too honorable to camp with Fox."

The problem is that this is a competitive gaming atmosphere. That stage is an even playing field with no randomness sans Seel, which is common knowledge, and easily avoided. You're not playing to win if you don't choose a character who can win on that stage. If you choose a character knowing all well that you have no chance of winning, then it's your fault. If you really think you have a better chance of winning with a non-fox character on that stage, then you choose that character. No one is forcing you to play any certain character on the stage. It's not like if one character is Fox, then the other(s) can't be.

I still don't believe that Fox breaks that stage enough for it to be banned for the entire cast of characters. Fox has genuinely good match ups against all of the cast, does this mean we should ban Fox because he breaks stages and is superior to other characters? Should Sheik be banned for her autowins over easily chaingrabbed low tiers? This community should address the problems with the game rather than x character does y on z stage so it should be banned. If camping is an issue, ban camping. If Fox is an issue, ban Fox. PF is not the issue since there is nothing inherently unfair about it. The fact that it stresses mobility as an advantage rather than raw kill power and long combos is what people don't like about it. The fact that Fox is the king of both of those metagames is just a coincidence. You could probably create a pokefloats tier list if you wanted to.

Being competitive means you're not putting yourself at a disadvantage on purpose. Choosing outclassed characters on a stage that you know you'll be playing on ahead of time is a bad decision, just like making a bad tech read or approaching at an inopportune time. If you really hate Floats so bad, then ban it. Fox still has an advantage over most characters on 95% of the other stages. Choose a character with some mobility. The stage does have points where it comes together, you just have to be patient enough to get there without eating 400 lasers.

Every newbie fox would learn it and people would lose matches they don't deserve to lose.

So there's no reason that someone who's been playing this game competitively for years and has an intricate understanding and mastery of an inferior character couldn't pick up Fox for a few hours a week, learn Floats, and put a stop to people CP'ing them with Floats and actually act like they care about winning?

Seriously, most of the people who actually care about winning know how to play Fox. If they're good, they know him to at least the extent that they can wreck someone who doesn't deserve to beat them, especially on a stage that Fox supposedly breaks. No one's forcing anyone to learn Fox, but you're creating a disadvantage for yourself by not learning him since he's good on every stage and has good match ups with every character and therefore, by definition, aren't playing competitively because you aren't playing to win, you're playing solely to have fun at a tournament and wreck noobs with your favorite characters. There's nothing wrong with that, but it's NOT competitive by definition. I'm not saying main Fox or something, but every player should at least learn him. He's a very common opponent and a very powerful character to have in your arsenal.

If you can't play Fox in a situation where it's absolutely needed, then you don't deserve to win anyway. The other player is either a better Fox than you are or has a better understanding of the game than you since you chose an inferior character knowing that you were going to lose on the stage that was chosen.

Why try to keep people from handicapping themselves? Saying that someone doesn't deserve to win because YOU didn't put out the effort to learn how to play a certain character is placing the blame on the wrong person.

 

[Armada]

I am done with this thread.

After i readed the last post i understand it will be impossible to even try do something good in this thread

 

[Cosmo!]

lets play on FD :v)