Re-discussing a ledge grab limit

[Mew2King]

me and Hax will be playing soon. I'll update them here.
Fanpage: https://www.facebook.com/mewtwoking?fref=ts
Twitter: https://twitter.com/CT_Mew2king
my Smash Stream: http://www.twitch.tv/clashtournaments

plz like/follow/subscribe

gonna stream melee stuff soon. Probably with Hax 2 weeks before Zenith (if he is still interested). u can watch my pichu beat him for an hour straight

 

[Osennecho]

Someone should host a Melee national where you can ban one of your opponent's characters. So you are forced to be good all-around at melee to win the set.

This sounds somewhat like a troll/joke post at first, but I would find that incredibly interesting to watch/see the results of. Even if it isn't a national or is just a side event at one. It sounds like the perfect rule for a side event tbh.

 

[6VI6]

Falcon can definitely do it dude. You just need to get a good wavedash.

I'll try it out soon but it's definitely not as viable as it is for Samus or Marth, for example.

But I agree with everythin else you said, Falcon does have plenty of other options for grabbing the ledge.

 

[SheerMadness]

Seriously watching M2K spam the ledge for 30 second periods in melee matches is heartbreaking.

This isn't ****ing brawl lol.

 

[Teczer0]

m2k, do not blatantly advertise like that, thats what twitter is for.

This is not your forum, its everyone's forum.

And stop double posting, use the edit function

 

[Mew2King]

It's not really spamming because I am telling the truth

this is DIRECTLY related to melee as well as me vs hax issue so it is not really "spam"

we will be using the clashtournaments stream to play with hax for 2 weeks before zenith

don't believe me?
ask Hax yourself. We already discussed it and I have log proof.

We may start as soon as May 19th and end about June 1st.

 

[I R MarF]

Someone should host a Melee national where you can ban one of your opponent's characters. So you are forced to be good all-around at melee to win the set.

What if someone bans your main and your secondaries aren't nearly as good?

 

[bertbusdriver]

that's why it would be a side event.

 

[Revven]

This thread is really silly and dumb.

That's all that needs to be said, lol.

 

[Mew2King]

yea that's why it's a side event, just like how low tiers are a side event, or hacked versions of brawl are a side event, etc.

 

[Nicholas1024]

Honestly, a LGL in this game seems unnecessary. In brawl MK's double U-air planking was ridiculously easy to do, shut down a large portion of the cast, and even if you managed to grab the ledge or knock him away, edgeguarding MK is close to a joke. Long story short, it had almost no risk, was simple to pull off, and resulted in an easy win if you had the lead.

In Melee, Sheik's ledge game, while effective, is also risky. M2K is the only player I've seen camp the ledge, and there were a couple times where Hax would make a good read to grab the ledge, before killing M2K with stomp to knee or something similar. So, when you consider that it's much harder to pull off, and can result in death from one mistake, it's not even comparable to planking in brawl.

That said, I could see a LGL for Jigglypuff being possible, but not until we see Jigglypuff's planking in tourney, and have some good players try to figure out a way around it.

 

[phish-it]

M2K, as boring as it would be to watch I think you should try to enter a tourney and go all jigglypuff and plank vs everyone at a local. You might be effective with it against Hax as Falcon doesn't have good options to force you off of it, but it'd be interesting to see how broken it is against the rest of the cast. Even though it would incredibly boring to watch the outcome would help in determining if this tactic 'ban worthy'. If lesser skilled players could get away with it too it would be even more meaningful but I doubt anyone has the patience to do it for long.

 

[Kayo]

I dunno if you've noticed this but the goal of a tournament player is not, never has been, and never will be to entertain you. it is to win.

This x 1000. We should just use this quote to close out all future tactic-banning thread ever. My causal smash playing friends think that every time I capitalize off of their poor recovery options and edgehog to prevent them from coming back on stage that I'm being cheap or unfair. Same goes for regular edgeguarding. Now saying that edgehogging is cheap to any actual smash player is very laughable. And that's pretty much what's being discussed here but on a higher level. one of my favorite things about Smash is finding new ways around your opponent's tactics. Also, I don't know if you've noticed but it's only M2K that does this and what he does takes a lot of skill. I certainly can't do it.

 

[Falconv1.0]

This kind of scrubby **** is why a lot of other fighting game people look down on us, I hope you all know this. If a game needs rules to manage player behavior in ****in game then it is a bad game. If a character has a broken technique then ban the character. (BTW this isn't even a broken technique!)

Gonna go cry in a corner now.

 

[FreedomFighter]

The community didn't make this game competitive. True, we have settings that make it suited best for competition, but this is the case for many games. If Halo has 5 good competitive maps and 5 Big Team Battle maps that are virtually unplayable in 4v4 competition, that doesn't make Halo a broken or uncompetitive game. You don't have to include EVERY SINGLE OPTION in a game to consider it competitive. That's the whole reason there are random stage select and item select screens. It's so you can play the game how you see fit. In fact, what authority even says Halo should be played 4v4? There is no inherent benefit of 4v4 over 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, etc. It is simply a standard a group of players agreed to compete in. The vast majority of the Melee community has agreed upon a ruleset by altering SIMPLE rules available via the game's own MENU. Outside of that, we have a FEW tactics that are banned. Stuff like freezing the game or infinite stalls that make it impossible to interact with the opponent on any level. I'm tired of hearing people say dumb **** like "Melee was an accident that just happened to be good" or "Melee is only competitive when you strip out the majority of the game." The comments are completely baseless and misleading.

But both of those statements ARE true.

Wavedashing wasn't intentional. Most of the things done at high level weren't intentional. This is true for all Smash games. That's not taking away from their competitive viability, it's just stating obvious facts.
And you aren't imposing minor rules. Come on. Banning 90 percent of stages and ALL items in a game where there are so many of them and are on by default isn't a minor adjustment.

Anyone that isn't a fanboy can see that. Or do you really believe Sakurai right now is in his office thinking "hmm M2K is making planking look broken in Brawl and Melee, I'll need to fix that for Smash 4 because what 1% of all Smash players care about (competitive play) is super important".

Smash was not intented to be competitive. Again, this isn't taking away from it. You guys should be proud you made something competitive when the odds were heavily stacked against you.

 

[MajinSweet]

But both of those statements ARE true.

Wavedashing wasn't intentional. Most of the things done at high level weren't intentional. This is true for all Smash games.

This is true for most fighting games, not just Smash. Just to make some current examples. In SF4 people are abusing unblockable setups. Not intentional. In Marvel, people are abusing TAC infinites, not intentional. As a community of players, we should not even think about developer intentions.

 

[Bones0]

But both of those statements ARE true.

Wavedashing wasn't intentional. Most of the things done at high level weren't intentional. This is true for all Smash games. That's not taking away from their competitive viability, it's just stating obvious facts.
And you aren't imposing minor rules. Come on. Banning 90 percent of stages and ALL items in a game where there are so many of them and are on by default isn't a minor adjustment.

Anyone that isn't a fanboy can see that. Or do you really believe Sakurai right now is in his office thinking "hmm M2K is making planking look broken in Brawl and Melee, I'll need to fix that for Smash 4 because what 1% of all Smash players care about (competitive play) is super important".

Smash was not intented to be competitive. Again, this isn't taking away from it. You guys should be proud you made something competitive when the odds were heavily stacked against you.

I never claimed Sakurai intentionally put all these mechanics in strictly for competitive usage. What he did do was create a game with great controls and depth. Every single aspect of Melee shows a great amount of care being put into it. There are no random frames of lag like in barlw. No moves are given too much stun so that comboing from them is easy. Players were given just the right amount of control over their character's trajectory, and loads of details like SDI and tech frame data are just perfect. If you think these all just happened to work properly, then you're just being naive. The game could have had so many more flawed aspects if Sakurai hadn't put in tons of effort that he cited in that interview from a year or so ago. The whole problem with this competitive vs. casual mentality developers have started to get is they believe something is either inherently competitive or inherently casual. Loads of amazing competitive games were made over the years, not because the devs were focused on making a solid competitive game, but because they were just focused on making the game itself good. There was no discrepancy between a good competitive and good casual multiplayer until a few years ago when devs started trying to appeal to scrubs with ridiculous egos who wanted to compete with the best without any of the work.

Your item argument is stupid. The whole thing relies on items being set to default. Who cares what the game sets to default? It's completely arbitrary. They chose to do 2-minute Time matches. Us playing 8-minute Stock matches doesn't change the game by any significant amount. Obviously there would be a pretty big difference between competitive Melee with items and without, but the majority of the matches would still look exactly the same. You'd still have players comboing the **** out of each other. You would just occasionally have one player getting a lucky item spawn near them, and they'd pick it up and throw it. In the grand scheme of things, that is not that big of a difference. The adjustment from Melee with items to Melee without items is honestly a really small adjustment. All you have to do is stop expecting items to spawn, and the rest of the game is played exactly the same.

 

[FreedomFighter]

I never claimed Sakurai intentionally put all these mechanics in strictly for competitive usage. What he did do was create a game with great controls and depth. Every single aspect of Melee shows a great amount of care being put into it. There are no random frames of lag like in barlw. No moves are given too much stun so that comboing from them is easy. Players were given just the right amount of control over their character's trajectory, and loads of details like SDI and tech frame data are just perfect. If you think these all just happened to work properly, then you're just being naive. The game could have had so many more flawed aspects if Sakurai hadn't put in tons of effort that he cited in that interview from a year or so ago. The whole problem with this competitive vs. casual mentality developers have started to get is they believe something is either inherently competitive or inherently casual. Loads of amazing competitive games were made over the years, not because the devs were focused on making a solid competitive game, but because they were just focused on making the game itself good. There was no discrepancy between a good competitive and good casual multiplayer until a few years ago when devs started trying to appeal to scrubs with ridiculous egos who wanted to compete with the best without any of the work.

Your item argument is stupid. The whole thing relies on items being set to default. Who cares what the game sets to default? It's completely arbitrary. They chose to do 2-minute Time matches. Us playing 8-minute Stock matches doesn't change the game by any significant amount. Obviously there would be a pretty big difference between competitive Melee with items and without, but the majority of the matches would still look exactly the same. You'd still have players comboing the **** out of each other. You would just occasionally have one player getting a lucky item spawn near them, and they'd pick it up and throw it. In the grand scheme of things, that is not that big of a difference. The adjustment from Melee with items to Melee without items is honestly a really small adjustment. All you have to do is stop expecting items to spawn, and the rest of the game is played exactly the same.

Every single aspect of Melee was made with care? Okay, you've already shown yourself to be a massive fanboy and as such there's no point in my reasoning with you but I will attempt to do so anyway despite it most likely being futile.

Firstly, consider the balance. That's one aspect Melee doesn't shine in and never has. Unless you are about to claim a game where less than half the cast is viable for tournament play is perfect in that regard. And if you do, you are beyond reason. This also means frame data can't be "perfect". Some characters clearly have way better moves in every aspect than other characters. Also consider the ledge, this topic wouldn't have existed if Sakurai had considered making ledges more fair. In both these aspects clearly less thought than needed was given.

Secondly, items would make little difference? Are you serious? Players would just plank or stall in some other way until an item appeared if they felt they couldn't beat their opponents regularly. There would be no reason not to. And we'd have tons of instances of better players losing to worse players due to item chance and luck. That's not significant to you? So why are all items off then?

Thirdly, the stages. How many stages does Melee have in total? The 3-5 tournament legal ones? Lol, don't think so. Most are banned and for good reason, they aren't fit for competitive play. And there is NOTHING wrong with that but it does show you have to significantly alter the game to make it competitive.

Know what you have to do in other fighters to make them competitive? Here's the ruleset:
1. Hit start.

Oh and I don't even play Melee seriously and I know your comment about no moves giving enough hitstun where it's easy to combo into is a load of BS. Melee has so many easy combos at mid percents because there's so much hitstun.

 

[MajinSweet]

Know what you have to do in other fighters to make them competitive? Here's the ruleset:
1. Hit start.

Except ST had Akuma banned, and Old Sagat soft banned in Japan. oh and MVC2 had rules prohibiting stalling via dead body combos. Oh and Vanilla MVC3 had bans on the quicksilver glitch iirc.(Once you get hit by it, it can be used to stall, sorta like IC freeze glitch) Please, just stop, you don't know what you're talking about.

 

[FreedomFighter]

I'm talking about recent fighters. In particular the rest of the Evo lineup. Since that is what Melee is going to be showcased next to.

And even the ones that you mentioned don't compare to how much has to be banned in Smash to make it competitive.

 

[MajinSweet]

I'm talking about recent fighters. In particular the rest of the Evo lineup. Since that is what Melee is going to be showcased next to.

And even the ones that you mentioned don't compare to how much has to be banned in Smash to make it competitive.

Oh okay, here's a list of additional rules for EVO2013 that are added to the game.

For SF4AE "Winner may change ultra, but has to pick ultra first after loser picks character."

For Ultimate Marvel 3

• You may not use any glitch that prevents the game from being played. This includes game freezing, game resetting, player freezing, etc.
• Winner must keep exact same team (including assists), but may switch order of assists via loading screen.

For TekkenTag2 "There will be no customizing colors, names or items at any time before or during a tournament match. Any player that does so will be given a loss."

For SFXT

• The default gem sets (2013 version) will be the only sets of gems you can choose from.
• Kuro, Toro, Cole, MegaMan, PacMan are banned in tournament play.
• You may not use any glitch that prevents the game from being played. This includes game freezing, game resetting, player freezing, etc.

And this is ignoring standard tournament traditions like counter picking rules, that no fighting game includes. Not to mention stage picks.

 

[Falconv1.0]

As Sweet mentioned Smash has stages that affect match ups so obviously there are going to be a few more rules in smash than some other fighters due to that but that doesn't somehow make it wildly different.

Freedom Fighter you just got bodied, son.

 

[FreedomFighter]

Okay so not being able to change colors, banning glitches and explaining how ultras can be chosen is the same as banning 100% of items, 90% of stages in a game with several dozen items and stages.

Do me a favor. Take a look at those rulesets again. Now do the same for Melee/Brawl. Notice how much longer they are?

 

[Falconv1.0]

Freedom Fighter I hope you realize the very first thing you said was that the only ruleset is "hit start". That's what got MajinSweet going. You then go with "I MEANT RECENT FIGHTERS" which have a decent amount of rules too. So you've already been shown to be a complete ****in fraud who has no idea what he's saying twice in a row.

Your new stance now is WELL THERE'S A FEW MORE THAN OTHER FIGHTERS which we addressed with the fact that there are elements like stage counterpicking that just straight up don't exist in other fighters, that doesn't somehow make it wildly different. Oh ****, stage rules, oh **** no items, good God WE'RE SO DIFFERENT SMASH IS SO UNIQUE WOOOOOOOOOOO!

Edit-meant counterpicking involving stages, derp

 

[FreedomFighter]

Freedom Fighter I hope you realize the very first thing you said was that the only ruleset is "hit start". That's what got MajinSweet going. You then go with "I MEANT RECENT FIGHTERS" which have a decent amount of rules too. So you've already been shown to be a complete ****in fraud who has no idea what he's saying twice in a row.

Your new stance now is WELL THERE'S A FEW MORE THAN OTHER FIGHTERS which we addressed with the fact that there are elements like counterpicking that just straight up don't exist in other fighters, that doesn't somehow make it wildly different. Oh ****, stage rules, oh **** no items, good God WE'RE SO DIFFERENT SMASH IS SO UNIQUE WOOOOOOOOOOO!

You can "hit start" not know any of the rules he posted and still finish your sets except for maybe SFxt but I'm not even going to go there. He's grasping at straws posting rules like no color changing allowed and ultra changing (which 99% of AE players don't even do to begin with).

You can't just play out a set in Smash without knowing the majority of key rules like what stages are legal and how counterpicking works.

Yes Smash is different. So what? Isn't that what it makes it great? I'll never understand why you guys want Smash to be like every other fighting game and constantly claim it is. As if by claiming it isn't means it's worse or something when I've already said Smash is fine as a competitive game.

 

[MajinSweet]

Okay so not being able to change colors, banning glitches and explaining how ultras can be chosen is the same as banning 100% of items, 90% of stages in a game with several dozen items and stages.

Do me a favor. Take a look at those rulesets again. Now do the same for Melee/Brawl. Notice how much longer they are?

Yes, moving the goal post, love it. The point is that smash as a tournament game isn't inherently different than others. Our rules follow similar guidelines. Just look at SFXT, it's also has party elements and it has "more" things banned. 99% of gems are banned outright, not much different than items. Hell, gems are not random, at all, and they pretty much got axed. But no, we ban stages so obviously smash is CRAZY DIFFERENT IN TOURNAMENTS!

You can't just play out a set in Smash without knowing the majority of key rules like what stages are legal and how counterpicking works.

uh, you know that traditional fighting games have counterpicking systems too? And you can't go into a tournament without knowing the rules of that right? I didn't even put that in my last post because I assumed you knew that.

 

[Falconv1.0]

Quick Freedom Fighter, move the goal post again before anyone notices! You still got this for free, dawg!

 

[Lovage]

wat a great thread

 

[BTmoney]

LOL if people can't learn the rules then they shouldn't play this game. The amount of rules is not a problem.

 

[Blistering Speed]

Hax, as intelligent and researched as most of your posts are, you can't seem to reconcile the simple fact that a strategy which alienates a significantly small portion of the cast (because they lack the necessary tools to interact with it appropriately) is not inherently worthy of banning, even if your character of choice is included in that small portion.

 

[BTmoney]

wat a great thread

I love you for your sig btw

 

[The 2t]

Every single aspect of Melee was made with care? Okay, you've already shown yourself to be a massive fanboy and as such there's no point in my reasoning with you but I will attempt to do so anyway despite it most likely being futile.

Bones is right though. Even if Sakurai never meant for this game to be what it is today, he still put a ton of care into the mechanics of Melee. All these little things like giving you window to tech before you hit the ground (or a wall), the ability to powershield both projectiles and hits if done with precise timing, the ability to L-cancel your aerials to speed up your character, the option to sweetspot the ledge when recovering to leave yourself less vulnerable... the list goes on, and those things add an amazing amount of depth. Even though Sakurai may have only intended for these things to be a little "extra something" for casual players to get an edge over their friends, there was still a ton of care and effort put into them. Sure, you could argue that things like wavedashing weren't intended and Sakurai probably wouldn't have foreseen the game being played at the speed that it is today, but all those little things he put in still make a massive difference to the depth of a game, even on a casual level.

 

[FreedomFighter]

I never said he didn't implement some very well thought out and deep mechanics.

I'm saying the game is far from perfect which he's implying with "every single aspect of Melee was made with care" and is severely lacking in some areas. Balance for example. That's one area Smash has never shined in especially for Melee/Brawl, Sakurai clearly couldn't care less in that regard. And balance is arguably the most important thing for competitive players. I'd love for every character in Melee and Brawl to be viable at tournaments.

Sure you can argue no other fighting game is completely balanced either, but I never said any other game is perfect either. Each have their ups and downs. And balance has always been one of the outstanding negative things about Smash.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

i'm learning to grab the ledge as fast as possible so I can gimp M2K with it or force him on the stage
I hope people start grabbing the ledge faster

 

[gravy]

Are you talking about with falcon Irish?

 

[Falconv1.0]

And balance has always been one of the outstanding negative things about Smash.

Smash has more viable characters than a lot of other competitive fighters.

Plz stahp.

 

[Mew2King]

Irish Mafia has the right mindset.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

yeah w/ falcon
idk I've seen hax just melt onto the ledge, I know it's difficult to do perfectly and consistently, but hey, I'm trying to take games. He seems to have his numbers straight, but as far as I see the only player who frequently uses falcon's wd towards it's full distance, and even he doesn't really try to just up and grab it
it's scary to just charge the ledge vs m2k but what the **** else am i gonna do, getting hit by needles fullscreen sucks, i'm gonna go make something happen and then not do it again if I died
it's good in every matchup, there's little reason to ledgeguard from on the ledge when I can hold it, be invincible, and react

Hax does make really good points. I think the responsible way to judge how necessary banning ledgestalling is would be to spread this information about the community as thoroughly as possible, and to see whether or not it truly effects the way people play. Whether or not it's banworthy should be decided by how well people below the top level can execute it (particularly against higher level players), and how well players of equal or higher skill are able to deal with it

 

[Mew2King]

No it's not nearly as good as you think, but u can believe that if u want.

 

[BTmoney]

No it's not nearly as good as you think, but u can believe that if u want.

how isn't it? let me play devil's advocate. sorry if you stated this previously but this thread is buns so I been in and out