Re-discussing a ledge grab limit

[Mew2King]

i really don't feel like telling everyone how to beat a strategy that no one else is good at, but there are a lot of holes in sheiks planking

 

[Falconv1.0]

If a character camping is actually broken, the character needs to be banned.

If the tactic in general is broken then it's a **** game and I'm never watching another match forever. (Good thing I don't think it's broken!)

Oh and real talk, Hax comparing ledgecamping to a dead body infinite has got to be some of the silliest **** in this thread. Reminds me when people compared the good old original broken Akuma to Metaknight in like 09 cuz durr hurr MK has no bad match ups. Then comparing Snake to Old Sagat vs Akuma, oh boy I sure do love how dumb we make ourselves look talking about **** we don't understand!

 

[WELM]

If you can't outsmart an edge camper, you don't deserve to win.

By the way, isn't Taj with Mewtwo good at the edge? He's actually awesome there.

 

[The Irish Mafia]

if anything we should be comparing it to freeze glitch, the only AT the community has banned so far.

 

[BTmoney]

Lol stop please

 

[kiw1]

you cant limit lasers

catch turnips/bombs etc

check mate

but seriously: we DONT need to limit edgegrabs because the meta around it isnt evolved enough to make such a decision

 

[odinNJ]

Why the heck are people considering limiting edge grabs, this isn't brawl.

Let m2k be m2k, its not as if people are dunking at locals with ledge camping :D :D

 

[Mew2King]

u actually can make a cliffhanger rule as well as a projectiles thrown rule

so both can be enforced

but i said it as a joke

 

[Falconv1.0]

If there was a projectiles thrown limit I would lose all faith in humanity.

 

[Zhea]

So it seems this thread isn't going anywhere progressive at this point. Should probably get locked.

 

[Zelda_Fan_]

There is no reasonable argument for a LGL. If this type of strategy is implemented more often in the community, it may very well lead to shifts in certain match ups.

Perhaps Captain Falcon has no good response to a Sheik taking advantage of playing from the ledge. That doesn't make the tactic unfair—it affects melee's metagame, and character's potentials as well as matchups may shift accordingly. Such shifts not working in your favorite character's favor are not legitimate reasons to assert that the tactic responsible is unfair.

 

[kiw1]

i guess the "but seriously" part explained i knew you were being sarcastic.

though u just exaggerate your statement making the edgelimit look ridiculous stupid.

you can avoid lasers/powershield'em, you can shield di perfect multishines and put your opponent in an disadvantage, EVERY character can do that.

though we don't know for 100% which characters can punish jigglypuff planking.

im pretty sure falcon cant really deal with it, while falco/fox/shiek/marth should be able to deal with it, i cant say for the other characters though.

if you go on now about ylink being able to outcamp puff than this is a skill he only has in this matchup, if u go on about fox camping out different characters on dreamland, than this is a stage problem, however puff can do this then on every neutral stage against a bunch of characters, making it broken

but whatever write again some silly post

 

[RockinRudy]

i guess the "but seriously" part explained i knew you were being sarcastic.

though u just exaggerate your statement making the edgelimit look ridiculous stupid.

you can avoid lasers/powershield'em, you can shield di perfect multishines and put your opponent in an disadvantage, EVERY character can do that.

though we don't know for 100% which characters can punish jigglypuff planking.

im pretty sure falcon cant really deal with it, while falco/fox/shiek/marth should be able to deal with it, i cant say for the other characters though.

if you go on now about ylink being able to outcamp puff than this is a skill he only has in this matchup, if u go on about fox camping out different characters on dreamland, than this is a stage problem, however puff can do this then on every neutral stage against a bunch of characters, making it broken

but whatever write again some silly post

Nice Now I can add a powershield limit to the list. Awesome.​

 

[BTmoney]

Lmao Rudy what is your motivation?

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mango, Armada, PP, and Hbox can all beat M2K's planking simply by fundamentals. One of the coolest things about Melee IMO is how can take a single aspect of the game and expand upon it to ludicrous levels. Almost all the top players have a few aspects of the game that they use in a really unique and effective way that demonstrate the depth to which they have pushed these aspects of their game. Some of the obvious ones people note are Mango's timing-heavy pressure game, PP's ballroom waltz, the infamous bair of HBox, and Armada... well, it's Armada.

M2K is the only player who can do anything at the edge with the capacity and finesse that he does it. He can take a limited option pool that limits outcomes and penalize people because of the effort he's put into studying how to limit, remove, and kill people in that position with high effectiveness. He's also got a lot of finesse with the fail-safes (look at his Sheik's walljumps, tech > airdodges back to the level, etc) that have only come from playing this position for so long.

The only difference between what he's doing and what the players better than him are doing is that his playstyle and emphasis on the ledge game superficially violates the subjectively agreed upon conditions of Melee combat. Wherein combat has to take place on the stage, etc. To some degree, his games vs Hax challenge a lot of preconceived notions about stage control; does stage control actually matter if the opponent can function well from the edge? It seems threatening, degenerate, and unhealthy to the game. But honestly I think these remarks are irrational. The top four players follow fairly conventional practices against this style of play and manage to beat it with high consistency. Using more or less the same playstyle that they have chosen and the principles of Melee's combat system, they manage to beat his planking the majority of the time.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it seems like one could probably study the windows where Sheik is vulnerable, when she can or cannot grab the edge, what the repercussions are for both players for doing specific actions, what he can do after his current action, how much reach she has at the edge, and so forth. I would wager that the top players have probably done this to some degree (consciously or otherwise) and combined with their strong fundamentals they modify their gameplay to beat it (rather than, "hit the opponent", the goal becomes, "steal the edge when she's offstage", and such). All four of them seem capable of doing it, so I don't want the argument of, "It's only one person." My question therefore is: is the fact that one person seems capable of using a highly unique style of fighting to place well but still lose to people better than him really so devastating to our community's perception of the game that we have to get rid of it? Even though it seems like this guy's competition can beat it just by using their fundamentals?

 

[BTmoney]

I see you were serious about these pop up essays

 

[KirbyKaze]

Oh yeah, suck my **** low tier scum. I don't give a rat's ass if Ganon can't beat this because Ganon isn't a character.

 

[WELM]

Oh yeah, suck my **** low tier scum. I don't give a rat's *** if Ganon can't beat this because Ganon isn't a character.

No need to bash the handicapped. "The first shall be last, and the last, first."

 

[kiw1]

Mango, Armada, PP, and Hbox can all beat M2K's planking simply by fundamentals. One of the coolest things about Melee IMO is how can take a single aspect of the game and expand upon it to ludicrous levels. Almost all the top players have a few aspects of the game that they use in a really unique and effective way that demonstrate the depth to which they have pushed these aspects of their game. Some of the obvious ones people note are Mango's timing-heavy pressure game, PP's ballroom waltz, the infamous bair of HBox, and Armada... well, it's Armada.

M2K is the only player who can do anything at the edge with the capacity and finesse that he does it. He can take a limited option pool that limits outcomes and penalize people because of the effort he's put into studying how to limit, remove, and kill people in that position with high effectiveness. He's also got a lot of finesse with the fail-safes (look at his Sheik's walljumps, tech > airdodges back to the level, etc) that have only come from playing this position for so long.

The only difference between what he's doing and what the players better than him are doing is that his playstyle and emphasis on the ledge game superficially violates the subjectively agreed upon conditions of Melee combat. Wherein combat has to take place on the stage, etc. To some degree, his games vs Hax challenge a lot of preconceived notions about stage control; does stage control actually matter if the opponent can function well from the edge? It seems threatening, degenerate, and unhealthy to the game. But honestly I think these remarks are irrational. The top four players follow fairly conventional practices against this style of play and manage to beat it with high consistency. Using more or less the same playstyle that they have chosen and the principles of Melee's combat system, they manage to beat his planking the majority of the time.

I'm going to go out on a limb and say it seems like one could probably study the windows where Sheik is vulnerable, when she can or cannot grab the edge, what the repercussions are for both players for doing specific actions, what he can do after his current action, how much reach she has at the edge, and so forth. I would wager that the top players have probably done this to some degree (consciously or otherwise) and combined with their strong fundamentals they modify their gameplay to beat it (rather than, "hit the opponent", the goal becomes, "steal the edge when she's offstage", and such). All four of them seem capable of doing it, so I don't want the argument of, "It's only one person." My question therefore is: is the fact that one person seems capable of using a highly unique style of fighting to place well but still lose to people better than him really so devastating to our community's perception of the game that we have to get rid of it? Even though it seems like this guy's competition can beat it just by using their fundamentals?

why is shiek planking even discussed since every character can grab the edge away and punish her, i think the only problem could be about puff planking and so states the op as well

 

[KrIsP!]

Because Sheiks planking is more of a threat, see m2k take two stocks off mango in 10 seconds at apex.

Puffs planking is just retardly safe but since she has to brig her whole body to stage level to attack it loses to everything except to another jiggs or falcon. Hardly ban worthy IMO. The entire discussion seems dumb, I could understand if people wanted to discuss strategies to beat it, that'd be interesting and hax is obviously trying to think of some himself.

It seems like most people are in agreement that it shouldn't be banned and good points have been stated anyways.

 

[Mew2King]

Puffs planking is much, much better than sheik's.

I used puff vs hax in tourney two times ever

December, not recorded, then again in Feb? and this one was recorded.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sQjiaboB_gk#t=1h43m40s

(the non-recorded match I took even less %)

DOUBLE 4 stock by just planking with puff. 0 stocks out of 8 possible stocks lost at 2 different tournaments.

Don't compare puff's planking to sheik's.

ive never 4 stocked him with sheik EVER, except games he rage quits out on last stock

I don't think either of these should be banned because I am leagues above all other players at the ledge in general, but to say puff's isn't broken or that puff's is worse than sheik's are 2 false statements.

 

[KrIsP!]

I don't think it's worse, I just think the strength of it is that if you hit her she just grabs the ledge again but I think Marth, spacies, etc. have an answer for it. Would you use puffs planking against any other top 8 characters besides falcon or puff?

Serious question, I'm interested in actually discussing planking as a strategy instead of something that needs to be banned.

 

[Mew2King]

this mostly just ***** falcon really badly

good vs ganon too and some other bad chars

pretty good vs spacies too. It's good vs spacies, better vs falcon.

bad vs sheik/marth.

falcon has no projectile and his hitboxes aren't the best, so he is forced to have a hard time. I'll take advantage of this flaw in tournament obviously. Other people say they don't like the ledge, well guess what? I don't like center stage. I don't want to have to play center stage if I don't want to, just because most people favor that.

 

[KirbyKaze]

No need to bash the handicapped. "The first shall be last, and the last, first."

I know there isn't a need but it's not like they have feelings. I see no harm in doing it.

 

[WELM]

I know there isn't a need but it's not like they have feelings. I see no harm in doing it.

Putting Roy down is putting me down. The players who love their characters don't like to be treated as low-tier scum. I don't know how many tier whores actually love their characters, or just use them to get ahead. I doubt hungrybox, for example, has Purin as his favourite. He just uses her to win money and infamy and whatnot.

 

[bertbusdriver]

I bet that WELM dude doesn't even like roy. Very few people will sink to his levels of using roy just for the free money$$$

 

[CanISmash]

Can someone please test this via action replay?

I feel we may need something to encourage gameplay.

Because its not just about stealing the ledge theres also an up-b hit box threatening.

I just want to see a consistent plank vs a consistent edge hog. I doubt its as easy as people make it out to be

Also bring back mute city. No ledges *******

 

[WELM]

I bet that WELM dude doesn't even like roy. Very few people will sink to his levels of using roy just for the free money$$$

I have no tournament experience. I'm a "nobody" pretty much. My mission is to beat everyone with Roy to humiliate the proud and make history. I'm a crazy dreamer, except I know it's possible, and I am willing and very, VERY eager to do it. Only thing I lack is money. I was gonna go to the last Orlando tournament NOOB4 but couldn't in the end. All I need is the opportunities. For now, my words mean nothing to you. But inshallah I will substantiate them with the blood of my slain opponents, and their ashes.

 

[gravy]

Roy is such a hardcore *****.

 

[kiw1]

testing it via AR/Dolphin is senseless because u can adjust the up-b hitbox + the player can adjust his approach to the ledge as well so in theory it would be a rock-paper-scissor game, but since we're not robots both sides got equal chances of succeding/failing.

and again never said it should be banned right now, it should be discussed again if this is getting an actual problem/the ledge game evolves further

 

[Krynxe]

Please avoid posting off-topic or useless comments. This thread has been a bit too spammy but I don't think it really needs to be locked, just keep down the spam.

And chill out a bit, KK ;P

 

[Bones0]

I have no tournament experience. I'm a "nobody" pretty much. My mission is to beat everyone with Roy to humiliate the proud and make history. I'm a crazy dreamer, except I know it's possible, and I am willing and very, VERY eager to do it. Only thing I lack is money. I was gonna go to the last Orlando tournament NOOB4 but couldn't in the end. All I need is the opportunities. For now, my words mean nothing to you. But inshallah I will substantiate them with the blood of my slain opponents, and their ashes.

FACT: You will never be the best with Roy. If you want to rep Roy, then great. That is... admirable. But I'd hate for you to continue maining Roy with the delusion that you would ever be able to compete in bracket-level matches at nationals.

 

[KrIsP!]

And chill out a bit, KK ;P

Why would you tell KK to calm down, he was only joking...probably.

Oh right off-topic, more questions for M2K then...would you really try planking a spacy? couldn't falco just plan his laser and just get in a dair/f-smash or CC puff's fair into nair? Maybe people ought to start practicing plank countering if they're worried about it. M2K is the only one who really does it so Hax is the only one with the chance to keep trying new things, unfortunately he plays the character who desperately needs to find something to counter it. If I ever play M2K I'm gunna ask him to puff plank me, I'd want to experience it fist hand.

 

[RockinRudy]

Please avoid posting off-topic or useless comments. This thread has been a bit too spammy but I don't think it really needs to be locked, just keep down the spam.

And chill out a bit, KK ;P

Thread hasn't been locked why?​

​

Honestly I typed out important topics that NEEDED to be talked about, why delete it? We need Super Smash Bros. Land of the Kitties! We need to improve the limit rule set.​

 

[WELM]

FACT: You will never be the best with Roy. If you want to rep Roy, then great. That is... admirable. But I'd hate for you to continue maining Roy with the delusion that you would ever be able to compete in bracket-level matches at nationals.

I responded to you in your profile, to move that topic over there.

EDIT: I wanted people to see it in his profile, but he didn't like my counter. Well, here it is since he erased it over there. This is how you should speak to people trying to bring you down:

 

[Bones0]

Why would you tell KK to calm down, he was only joking...probably.

Oh right off-topic, more questions for M2K then...would you really try planking a spacy? couldn't falco just plan his laser and just get in a dair/f-smash or CC puff's fair into nair? Maybe people ought to start practicing plank countering if they're worried about it. M2K is the only one who really does it so Hax is the only one with the chance to keep trying new things, unfortunately he plays the character who desperately needs to find something to counter it. If I ever play M2K I'm gunna ask him to puff plank me, I'd want to experience it fist hand.

KK never jokes... He just sort of exaggerates things in ways that seem humorous to others.

 

[Zhea]

I stand corrected. Well played KirbyKaze. Well played.

 

[Krynxe]

Last warning here. Stop the drama and keep this thread on topic

 

[CanISmash]

testing it via AR/Dolphin is senseless because u can adjust the up-b hitbox + the player can adjust his approach to the ledge as well so in theory it would be a rock-paper-scissor game, but since we're not robots both sides got equal chances of succeding/failing.

and again never said it should be banned right now, it should be discussed again if this is getting an actual problem/the ledge game evolves further

I feel like we can get a picture and see the margin of error how easy or difficult it is. and see maybe what players are doing wrong / what they should be doing to beat it.

the up b hit box is the main problem imo. it makes it hard to approach the ledge and then you might work really hard to finally steal the ledge and sheik can't grab the ledge with you on it so she simply up bs horizontal as far as possible onto the stage leaving the trail of the up b hit box behind her

honestly this is the only game the allows you to be constantly invincible and there's only one way to do it. Tell me why should this **** be allowed but jiggly puffs stalling pounds be banned? I mean she has to come up to the stage eventually. or peaches wall bomb. all it takes is one person to ruin a game.

the purpose of the ledge was for recovery. we're going to let something like sheik up-b stalling for 8 minutes represent our community at evo ? cool.

 

[Massive]

Why impose a ledgegrab limit when you can just ban the only person who needs a ledgegrab limit?

TROLOLOLOLOLOLOL.