Re-discussing a ledge grab limit

[FreedomFighter]

Okay here's the thing when people say we shouldn't impose too many rules.

This is Smash Bros. Lol. It was NEVER intended or made to be competitive. The community made it competitive and the only way to do that was to impose A LOT of rules. That's the difference between Smash and most other fighters. We need rules like items off, most stages banned, etc.

So you can't just dimiss the idea of a LGL because the FGC will mock it or something. Because the same guys that'll mock that probably already mock Smash for "no items fox only final destination".

That said while it's exceptionally lame to see and is starting to become a bigger issue, at the end of the day this is all due to literally one player. If others become as good on the ledge as M2K maybe it will become a big enough issue to address. M2K isn't unbeatable and hasn't even won a major in ages so you can't call the tactic game-breaking.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Okay here's the thing when people say we shouldn't impose too many rules.

This is Smash Bros. Lol. It was NEVER intended or made to be competitive. The community made it competitive and the only way to do that was to impose A LOT of rules. That's the difference between Smash and most other fighters. We need rules like items off, most stages banned, etc.

So you can't just dimiss the idea of a LGL because the FGC will mock it or something. Because the same guys that'll mock that probably already mock Smash for "no items fox only final destination".

That said while it's exceptionally lame to see and is starting to become a bigger issue, at the end of the day this is all due to literally one player. If others become as good on the ledge as M2K maybe it will become a big enough issue to address. M2K isn't unbeatable and hasn't even won a major in ages so you can't call the tactic game-breaking.

Honestly, I think this discussion should first play out under the assumption that there may, in fact, be a LGL at some point in the future. In other words, we should try and actually come up with a reasonable number for the LGL, so that IF a tournament wants to run a LGL, they will have the information to do so without running into problems.

As for my opinion on a LGL, I support it. The point of any game is to be fun. Planking is not fun for the viewers or for the players, and completely changes the nature of the game when implemented. It's position as 'overpowered' is questionable, but that's not the full scope of the problem. For Sheik, the risk is high, but the reward is higher. For Puff, it's just typical low-risk high-reward. Plus, it's not like a LGL will completely invalidate these characters.

Of course, I've had very little experience using it or playing against it, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, and a whole bar of delicious melt-in-your-mouth-good Dove chocolate.

Dove chocolate. *Insert slogan here.*

I take it back people are being ridiculous.

 

[FreedomFighter]

You quoted two posts that contradict each other and claim they are both being ridiculous?

Read my last paragraph again. I don't support the LGL rule.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Hax just do dash wavedash turnaround fastfall ledgegrab.

I do it all the time with Marth and its ****ing amazing. Its not even hard. Just space your wavedash so you can time the turnaround when you're sliding off the edge.

You can beat him. We all know how much better you are on stage so just do it and take your throne as East Coast's best. Its about damn time.

 

[EpixAura]

I take it back people are being ridiculous.

Well in my defense, I just like disagreeing with M2K.

 

[Get Low]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9Qf6hV3_zNU

This is for people who think M2K is the only one abusing Shiek's planking.
I think a LGL would be healthy for the game.
I don't see what the big deal with having one would be.
If Shieks want to plank, they'd still be able to do it, but just not for several minutes of the match.
The LGL in Brawl doesn't stop people from temporarily planking when they feel they need to.

 

[Astraea31]

while we're at it why don't we have give spacies a shine limit, and ban rest? They're both broken amirite!?

 

[BTmoney]

I do it all the time with Marth and its ****ing amazing. Its not even hard. Just space your wavedash so you can time the turnaround when you're sliding off the edge.

Wow, it's like you read Hax's post

 

[Ripple]

when only 2 characters are exceptionally good on the ledge. That tells you more about those characters rather than the ledge.

But people want to limit the ledge for the whole cast because we can't acknowledge that a character or 2 might be broken in normal gameplay

 

[EpixAura]

while we're at it why don't we have give spacies a shine limit, and ban rest? They're both broken amirite!?

Apples and oranges.
There is a difference between a broken move, and a broken technique or strategy. In addition, planking can instantly change the entire nature of the game, forcing the opposing player into an all-or-nothing gambit. If the planking player has the stock advantage, the opposing player will, at best, even things up, and at worst, be put into an almost unwinnable situation. If the opposing player refuses to take this unreasonable risk, the game is effectively over, and both players have to endure what is essentially a 4-7 minute victory ceremony. Since the primary point of a game is fun, this runs counter to what the game is for to a much higher degree than rest or shine. It could be said that competitive gaming is not about fun, but even then, it's intended as a source of entertainment for the viewers.

Of course, this is 'if the planking player has the stock advantage.' However, the timing is too strict for many characters to succeed consistently, even for top players. In that sense, their only hope is to 'guess' what the opponent will do when the approach the ledge. This could be argued as supporting mindgames, but given the sheer number of options available to the planking player as opposed to the number available for the approaching player, it will often be a matter of luck in this situation.

On the other hand, it's not like you automatically start a stock behind the opponent and are forced into using a character that can't deal with planking. I want to see how planking progresses in the metagame, but frankly, I don't think I have the patience to watch a game that's more than 30% planking, even if I know the planking player still gets stomped in the long run. A LGL won't change the game whatsoever, but not implementing one has a potentially detrimental effect to the entire community. Of course, it's not like I don't mind a progession of the metagame, but if more people start incorporating it, the game will end up losing a lot of what makes it competitive.

 

[bertbusdriver]

You guys can't be serious. Approaching in general is always an "unreasonable" risk in this game. YL does a great job circle camping jiggs on larger stages. There are characters that literally cannot catch Falcon or Fox if they decide to run away for the entire match.

Unless you're playing M2K on a regular basis, grow a ****. No one else is even planking anywhere near his level of effectiveness.

 

[Bones0]

Okay here's the thing when people say we shouldn't impose too many rules.

This is Smash Bros. Lol. It was NEVER intended or made to be competitive. The community made it competitive and the only way to do that was to impose A LOT of rules. That's the difference between Smash and most other fighters. We need rules like items off, most stages banned, etc.

So you can't just dimiss the idea of a LGL because the FGC will mock it or something. Because the same guys that'll mock that probably already mock Smash for "no items fox only final destination".

That said while it's exceptionally lame to see and is starting to become a bigger issue, at the end of the day this is all due to literally one player. If others become as good on the ledge as M2K maybe it will become a big enough issue to address. M2K isn't unbeatable and hasn't even won a major in ages so you can't call the tactic game-breaking.

I obviously can't speak for everyone, but I sure find it fun to challenge myself to overcome "broken" tactics. If that sort of challenge isn't what you find fun, then pick a different game. In fact, I'd suggest not playing any competitive games at all. SPOILER ALERT: Any competitive game worth playing will always feel broken. If the best tactics don't feel broken, then you're not really getting outplayed and the game just ends up watering down players' skill gaps.

The community didn't make this game competitive. True, we have settings that make it suited best for competition, but this is the case for many games. If Halo has 5 good competitive maps and 5 Big Team Battle maps that are virtually unplayable in 4v4 competition, that doesn't make Halo a broken or uncompetitive game. You don't have to include EVERY SINGLE OPTION in a game to consider it competitive. That's the whole reason there are random stage select and item select screens. It's so you can play the game how you see fit. In fact, what authority even says Halo should be played 4v4? There is no inherent benefit of 4v4 over 1v1, 2v2, 3v3, 5v5, etc. It is simply a standard a group of players agreed to compete in. The vast majority of the Melee community has agreed upon a ruleset by altering SIMPLE rules available via the game's own MENU. Outside of that, we have a FEW tactics that are banned. Stuff like freezing the game or infinite stalls that make it impossible to interact with the opponent on any level. I'm tired of hearing people say dumb **** like "Melee was an accident that just happened to be good" or "Melee is only competitive when you strip out the majority of the game." The comments are completely baseless and misleading.

Honestly, I think this discussion should first play out under the assumption that there may, in fact, be a LGL at some point in the future. In other words, we should try and actually come up with a reasonable number for the LGL, so that IF a tournament wants to run a LGL, they will have the information to do so without running into problems.

As for my opinion on a LGL, I support it. The point of any game is to be fun. Planking is not fun for the viewers or for the players, and completely changes the nature of the game when implemented. It's position as 'overpowered' is questionable, but that's not the full scope of the problem. For Sheik, the risk is high, but the reward is higher. For Puff, it's just typical low-risk high-reward. Plus, it's not like a LGL will completely invalidate these characters.

Of course, I've had very little experience using it or playing against it, so take my opinion with a grain of salt, and a whole bar of delicious melt-in-your-mouth-good Dove chocolate.

Dove chocolate. *Insert slogan here.*

If the point of any game is to be fun and Strong Bad has more fun without Falco and Jiggs being playable characters, should we ban them? Of course not. Even players like Strong Bad who may have a lot less fun because of Falco or Jiggs's character designs still (hopefully...) don't think they should be banned. Competitive players essentially enter into an agreement that no tactics will be banned for a lack of "fun" because they know that protects their own tactics from being banned if they should ever put in enough effort to get really good.
At the end of the day, if you want to play for fun, STAY THE **** OUT OF TOURNAMENTS.

 

[Zhea]

The problem is the crux of the strategy is to get the lead. If a player is getting the 1st stock at least 3 out 5 games, that means the player is consistently winning neutral. That usually indicates the better player. Let say they are only competing for dmg (which is far riskier if you lose your stock do to a tech flub on the edge), that also means that player is getting the 1st hit more often. That also usually indicates the better player. So even if they are using this strategy, are they the worse player? True, law of averages means there will be sets they win where on average they wouldn't, but on the whole they would still lose to the same player levels.

A legitimate argument is that this could hold up a tournament. To compensate, match times would be lowered and this strategy honestly becomes more viable. So then a LGL is implemented with a number based on the current meta game of characters who use it. Okay, so what if these characters or worse, a single character finds a new tech that lets them grab the ledge less while being safe? Do we change the rule for one character? How does that number affect the others? This also kills style diversity, because if you aren't doing the best option of LGL, then you are only hurting yourself. So this tactic becomes even more samey without mixups. More boring to watch.

I don't think this is a good idea. At least not now. If this becomes the dominating meta game? Perhaps. Ultimately we want the community to grow, and if a top level dominated strictly by this(which I don't think will happen), then it might be time to crack open the rule book. As of now or a year from now? No.

 

[NalsXR]

The assumption here is that we've exhausted all options against regrabbing the ledge repeatedly

is that true?

 

[Zhea]

The assumption here is that we've exhausted all options against regrabbing the ledge repeatedly

is that true?

Cactuar says no, so I am inclined to agree.

Also I should add that Hax, you are my hero for getting that nair kill on FD. God damn.

 

[EpixAura]

If the point of any game is to be fun and Strong Bad has more fun without Falco and Jiggs being playable characters, should we ban them? Of course not. Even players like Strong Bad who may have a lot less fun because of Falco or Jiggs's character designs still (hopefully...) don't think they should be banned. Competitive players essentially enter into an agreement that no tactics will be banned for a lack of "fun" because they know that protects their own tactics from being banned if they should ever put in enough effort to get really good.
At the end of the day, if you want to play for fun, STAY THE **** OUT OF TOURNAMENTS.

One person's opinion doesn't particularly matter, but if, say 99% of players decided that the game was more fun without Falco and Jiggs, then it would potentially be justified, as everyone would have more enjoyment all around. Of course, this case is a little extreme, because unlike planking, Falco and Jiggs don't completely change the nature and pace of the game when utilized. (Jiggs kind of does against spacies, but they have the tools to match it.) The 'fun' aspect is only a portion of the argument.
As for the latter half of the post, don't get me wrong. I play to win. I camp, I spam lasers, and I deliberately frustrate my easily angered friends to cloud their judgment just so I can win. But why do I do that? Because it's fun. Competitive gaming is the same. Even if it's not intended to be fun for the players, it's meant to be fun for the viewers. If you're playing for money rather than fun, then you should realize the reason that money's even involved is because it makes it more fun for everyone else.
Again, it's not like my whole reason for supporting a LGL is because planking is boring, but even the goals of rules and such is to make the game more enjoyable for those who take it seriously.

 

[Jolteon]

One person's opinion doesn't particularly matter, but if, say 99% of players decided that the game was more fun without Falco and Jiggs, then it would potentially be justified, as everyone would have more enjoyment all around. Of course, this case is a little extreme, because unlike planking, Falco and Jiggs don't completely change the nature and pace of the game when utilized. (Jiggs kind of does against spacies, but they have the tools to match it.) The 'fun' aspect is only a portion of the argument.
As for the latter half of the post, don't get me wrong. I play to win. I camp, I spam lasers, and I deliberately frustrate my easily angered friends to cloud their judgment just so I can win. But why do I do that? Because it's fun. Competitive gaming is the same. Even if it's not intended to be fun for the players, it's meant to be fun for the viewers. If you're playing for money rather than fun, then you should realize the reason that money's even involved is because it makes it more fun for everyone else.
Again, it's not like my whole reason for supporting a LGL is because planking is boring, but even the goals of rules and such is to make the game more enjoyable for those who take it seriously.

I am sure you could find a significant enough majority that think this game is more fun without Jigglypuff, that still doesn't mean that Jigglypuff should be banned.

I don't really know where to begin on the rest of your argument... competitive gaming is intended to be fun for the viewers? Pretty sure that the entire point of a competition is to determine who is the best. Rules are not made to make this game "more enjoyable", fun is subjective.

 

[Bones0]

One person's opinion doesn't particularly matter, but if, say 99% of players decided that the game was more fun without Falco and Jiggs, then it would potentially be justified, as everyone would have more enjoyment all around. Of course, this case is a little extreme, because unlike planking, Falco and Jiggs don't completely change the nature and pace of the game when utilized. (Jiggs kind of does against spacies, but they have the tools to match it.) The 'fun' aspect is only a portion of the argument.
As for the latter half of the post, don't get me wrong. I play to win. I camp, I spam lasers, and I deliberately frustrate my easily angered friends to cloud their judgment just so I can win. But why do I do that? Because it's fun. Competitive gaming is the same. Even if it's not intended to be fun for the players, it's meant to be fun for the viewers. If you're playing for money rather than fun, then you should realize the reason that money's even involved is because it makes it more fun for everyone else.
Again, it's not like my whole reason for supporting a LGL is because planking is boring, but even the goals of rules and such is to make the game more enjoyable for those who take it seriously.

How exactly does planking change the nature of the game? It is PART of the game. You can't point out one specific aspect of a game and say it it is different from the rest, therefore it should be banned. DD also significantly "changes" the nature and pace of the game, but no one wants to ban that. Your criteria for something being banworthy is ridiculous. Not fun, unpopular, and an important aspect of the game? When did SmashBoards turn into Scrub Central?

 

[BTmoney]

How exactly does planking change the nature of the game? It is PART of the game. You can't point out one specific aspect of a game and say it it is different from the rest, therefore it should be banned. DD also significantly "changes" the nature and pace of the game, but no one wants to ban that. Your criteria for something being banworthy is ridiculous. Not fun, unpopular, and an important aspect of the game? When did SmashBoards turn into Scrub Central?

lose lead->get planked->character you are using has no answer (if that truly is the case)->lose

=scrub?

There are only a few tactics that literally cannot be punished without certain specifics, at least as far as frame traps go, but they belong to space animals and have a proportional difficulty and therefore they are not broken. Planking does not have a difficulty proportional to the pay off. I.e. Ganon cannot punish Fox's multishines even when staled OoS, he can roll but that is not a punish therefore the tactic is not broken because 1 it is manageable and 2 it is difficult to perform.


Either way I am pretty neutral on this matter but I am going to error on allowing it stay at least for now.

 

[Bones0]

lose lead->get planked->character you are using has no answer (if that truly is the case)->lose

=scrub?

There are only a few tactics that literally cannot be punished, at least as far as frame traps go, but they belong to space animals and have a proportional difficulty and therefore they are not broken. Planking does not have a difficulty proportional to the pay off.


Either way I am pretty neutral on this matter but I am going to error on allowing it stay at least for now.

How is that different from this?
lose lead -> get DD/platform camped -> character you are using has no answer -> lose

What do you even mean by "frame traps"? Spacies don't have any frame traps that are impossible to approach. Fox can probably time out a few characters on some of the stages that aren't even legal anymore, but that's about it. As far as payoff being proportional to difficulty, that's classic scrub mentality. Some tactics will always have a higher ratio of payoff to effort. Doesn't mean you ban the easiest strongest tactics.

 

[Jayk]

It's not scrub to lose to the tactic, since it is pretty obviously a good tactic, but its pretty lame to try to get it banned because you can't beat it.
You could just pick a different character next time. Or if you want to stick to your character, just don't lose the lead I guess.
I mean, almost every character has some stuff they just can't really deal with, and nobody is stopping anyone from picking Fox/Falco/Shiek themselves.

 

[Bones0]

It's not scrub to lose to the tactic, since it is pretty obviously a good tactic, but its pretty lame to try to get it banned because you can't beat it.
You could just pick a different character next time. Or if you want to stick to your character, just don't lose the lead I guess.
I mean, almost every character has some stuff they just can't really deal with, and nobody is stopping anyone from picking Fox/Falco/Shiek themselves.

I'm using scrub in this sense. You can be awful at a game and not be a scrub.

 

[EpixAura]

I am sure you could find a significant enough majority that think this game is more fun without Jigglypuff, that still doesn't mean that Jigglypuff should be banned.

I don't really know where to begin on the rest of your argument... competitive gaming is intended to be fun for the viewers? Pretty sure that the entire point of a competition is to determine who is the best. Rules are not made to make this game "more enjoyable", fun is subjective.

There are plenty of competitive players who know they can't be the best, whether overall, or for their area. Even wanting to be the best is just because it's enjoyable having that title. The statement that competitive gaming was to be fun for the viewer was just an example. I suppose entertainment would have been a better word than fun for what I was trying to say. Of course the point of a competition is to determine who is best, but that's not it's entire point.
As for Puff, like I said, that's an extreme case, and she doesn't alter the standard gameplay enough for it to become unrecognizable. My phrasing for the situation was also pretty stupid on my part, but I used "99%" instead of a realistic number because in that case, it really would be justified if it reached 99%. I only meant that making the game less enjoyable is still a factor in the decision, not that its the sole factor.

 

[NightShadow6]

If were going by straight results then a limit shouldn't be imposed. It didn't win M2K any major tournaments against top level players did it?

 

[Jayk]

I'm using scrub in this sense. You can be awful at a game and not be a scrub.

Yea... I'm agreeing with you, note that I said its not scrubby to lose to this, but to complain about it. Read that before and agree with it and all.
Actually have a lot of fun with a friend telling him a scrub (he is by Sirlin definition) even though he generally wins the majority of our games.

 

[The 2t]

I don't think it's worth actually imposing a ledge grab limit rule. That being said, watching someone sit there and stall on the ledge for several minutes is a good way to make a lot of people say "really?" but hey, if someone wants to do it, I guess that's up to them. Thankfully there aren't many people in this game that actually do it though.

 

[Bad Cupboard]

At the end of the day, if you want to play for fun, STAY THE **** OUT OF TOURNAMENTS.

Another brilliant thought from the mind of bones

 

[MasterShake]

to whoever was wondering, lightshield edgehog doesn't really work against sheik. her up-b is unique in that she doesn't suffer hitlag while her opponent does, granting her additional frame advantage much like a projectile would

Yikes.

Man, **** Sheik lol.

 

[Hax]

Jason, during our GF’s set this weekend there was a point where you repeated “it’s gonna get banned! it’s gonna get banned!” over and over as you planked me. howcome now that its ban is actually being discussed it is not only a surprise, but a preposterous idea to you?

“debatable” is not an accurate word to describe how you feel about the ban-worthiness of Jigglypuff planking. we’ve discussed how hilariously broken the technique is on several occasions, and I know that isn’t how you feel about it. you’re just trying to brush the fact that there undoubtedly needs to be a LGL for Jigglypuff under the rug, as it would only be fair at that point to enforce a LGL for all characters.

-

you say that a ban should not be enforced because we should not impose arbitrary numbers. two things:

1.we are fortunate to be able to objectively measure someone’s ledgegrabs and impose an arbitrary number. in Marvel 2, Storm camping the top of the screen makes like 2/3rds of the cast literally unplayable. you have an undoubtedly superior game if you limit this technique, but there is no way to do this as there is no way to objectively measure how hard someone camped with Storm. the Marvel 2 community had no choice other than to allow it.

there is yet another gamebreaking technique in Marvel 2 called the dead body infinite. In Marvel 2, when your character dies, his corpse can still be comboed. there are ways to perform infinites on this corpse. do this for the remainder of the clock, and you’ll win the match via timeout. fortunately, this technique CAN be objectively measured, and an arbitrary limit was put in place to stop it: you can’t dead body infinite someone once you’ve taken someone to the corner with it.

could you imagine Marvel 2 if someone automatically won the game once they killed their opponent’s first character? if all games of Marvel 2 featured the first character dying, then getting dead body infinited for 80 Marvel seconds? I don’t think the game would have grown to be nearly as big and hype as it did. If it weren’t for the DBI limit, Marvel 2 probably would’ve been written off as a trash game instead of the masterpiece that it is. yeah, pros still tend to win the game once they kill their opponent’s first character by guard breaking the next two, but that takes an incredibly high level of execution and skill. the dead body infinite, just like planking in Melee, is degenerative and low-skill to the point that it is ban-worthy. I don’t care how frame-perfect your ledgehop fairs are; it is disrespectful to even compare the depth and difficulty of planking to the depth/difficulty of the neutral game/the rest of Melee.

2.we know that there needs to be a timer in Melee. but how long should this timer be? 6 minutes? 7 minutes? 8 minutes? these are all arbitrary numbers; are you telling me that we can’t impose a timer because of this?

everything in this game is arbitrary. from the stagelist, to the amount of stocks we play with, to the amount of time we play with, etc. we are attempting to turn a party game into a competitive one; you’d better believe the ruleset is going to be filled with arbitrary rules.

why don’t you play me on Hyrule? I’d take a 1% lead and proceed to win the match because my character is faster than yours. every time you’d comment about how horrifically unfair circle-camping is, I’d tell you to “deal with it and adapt. that’s what competitive gaming is about.” the technique IS beatable, after all; you just have to pick Fox. so it shouldn’t be banned, right?

“a LGL can’t be imposed because an arbitrary number can’t be imposed” is not an argument.

-

planking cannot even be compared to lasers, shines, or any other broken moves for several reasons. that is ridiculous.

planking creates a situation that is at the very least absolutely horrific, potentially even unbeatable, for some characters. it does this in a manner so simple and degenerative that I’m shocked you even compared it to lasers and shines, which, while broken, require you to actually play your character. planking is a repetitive formula with two main options: ledgehop/regrab ledge (Sheik up-b can be used to do this), and ledgehop fair. you will surely attack this part of my post and state that it has more depth than this, but you’re lying if you claim you don’t know what I’m getting at. to compare the depth of planking to the depth of the neutral game, no, the depth of anything else in this game, is absurd.

there is no way for the 8 characters I named in my earlier post to grab the ledge by just wavedashing vs a planker with good reactions. that means that shielding, CC’ing, PC dropping, or moonwalking must be utilized in some way.

CC’ing doesn’t work past approx. 45%

PC dropping is borderline humanly impossible with most characters, and if it is required to beat planking then planking should surely be banned

moonwalking is extremely easy for you to see, and could only possibly work with 1 of the 8 characters I named (Falcon). I highly doubt that it would do anything, but I do plan on trying it vs. you. still, 7 of the 8 characters don’t have moonwalking as an option

shielding is what I’m experimenting with most; it’s pretty much my only hope of beating your planking with Falcon. for example, shielding by the ledge, and then quickly wavedashing onto the ledge when you’re forced to make a move (which you have to do every 11 seconds).

here is the problem.

should you succeed at taking the ledge from Sheik, you force her to either up-b, airdodge, or doublejump past you to get onto the stage. this gives you the opportunity for a legitimate punish.

should you succeed at taking the ledge from Jigglypuff, many characters gain absolutely nothing. as you said, she can be shinespiked 3 times and still live. ledgehop Falco dair is the only truly good punish in the game vs her.

if I were to steal the ledge from a planking Jigglypuff who knew what they were doing, she would proceed to float diagonally below me. below me so that I can’t hit her with a ledgehop bair AND regrab the ledge (I’d be too low; I’d have to up-b), and diagonal so that I can’t ledgehop stomp her. what I have to do at this point to punish her at all is successfully ledgehop and regrab the ledge every time she uses one of her 5 jumps. every time she jumps, she threatens to fair, which would force me to up-b, costing me a stock. should I manage to successfully do this for 3 or 4 jumps and actually put her in any danger, she could quickly use her 5th jump and airdodge onstage. this grants me a mediocre punish; usually a single aerial. to get this mediocre punish, I stole the ledge from Jigglypuff (which practically requires an error from the planker), and then successfully performed some TAS **** on the ledge to successfully dodge several aerials, all which kill me if I’m even nicked by them, for a good 5 seconds to get her to use her airdodge. this is unfair.

what I’m asking of you is to confess to Smashboards what you have told me + shown me plenty of times, and what we both know: that Jigglypuff’s planking is undoubtedly broken and absolutely needs to be banned. this is not “debatable” in the least.

there’s no way in hell someone as smart and knowledgeable about this game as you truly believes that this technique is fair with either Jiggs or Sheik, but I completely understand you defending it. whether or not it gets banned, I’m honored that you have to use this bull**** to beat me.

 

[Rocketpowerchill]

just give everyone a shot clock
noone can be on the ledge for 5sec or a shot clock violation

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Aziz, why don't you listen to my advice

Dash->wavedash forward->buffer a turnaround->fastfall

Trust me dude.

 

[gravy]

Crimson, in my opinion you might as well pivot and wave dash backwards instead. I guess your way makes it more ambiguous though.

 

[Zhea]

This thread lacks magus goodness. http://www.smashboards.com/threads/scar-talks-lean-melee-2012yotf.197123/page-287#post-10532102

 

[6VI6]

Aziz, why don't you listen to my advice

Dash->wavedash forward->buffer a turnaround->fastfall

Trust me dude.

That doesn't work very well with falcon. He doesn't have a long enough wavedash for it.

 

[Mew2King]

edit-ignore

 

[Mew2King]

It's fair with Sheik, not so fair with puff. If sheik is edge hogged she gets either KOd instantly, or stomp to kneed to edge guarded (depending on the length of the stage; smaller stages being worse for her since she's easier to be in an edge guarded position). I've DOUBLE 4 stocked you with puff, by ONLY planking, the only 2 times I ever went puff in tournament vs you ever. I've NEVER 4 stocked you with sheik EVER, in any combination of fighting, planking, or planking+fighting. Comparing puff's planking to sheik's is insane. I'm just godlike at the ledge compared to everyone else because I spend all of my time there. do you not remember our team friendlies when your THREE falcos couldn't KO my fox in those FFAs/team matches. I think there was 1 game where all 3 of you died before I even took damage at one point. Fox sucks at the edge, but I play EVERY character at the ledge, even those that are bad at it. It's my playing style. I take my playing style, and characters that are super good there, so you have someone that is very good at the ledge, with a character that is very good at the ledge, and you have a ridiculously hard time to fight it because of that. If I had armada's reaction time I would just down throw and react every time but im inconsistent cuz I don't naturally have those reflexes. If I focused on stage control and played falco I would never let you on stage like PP does. But since you fight me at every tourney, and I am the ledge master guy, of course this is what you will make a topic of because you have to deal with it every tournament. I've only been doing it recently and it hasn't changed the set results either, even though I am also better at fighting with sheik compared to before slightly.

Puff's planking is actually borderline broken. I've said this forever
Sheik's planking is just a really good tactic in some MUs when you have the lead. ESPECIALLY vs C.Falcon SPECIFICALLY since it's Legs vs Legs battle and her Bair beats all. This strategy COUNTERS Falcon if anything. But projectiles, swords, etc can all beat it pretty easily. Overall Sheik's ledge game is not even REMOTELY close to puff's ability to plank

Puff >>>>>>>>>>> Sheik >>>>> everyone else, in terms of planking or ledge camping.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Crimson, in my opinion you might as well pivot and wave dash backwards instead. I guess your way makes it more ambiguous though.

There are a lot of super quick ways to grab the edge as Falcon. Hes the fastest character in the game, has the best moonwalk, and can harness his already absurd aerial mobility with his other movement properties to fly across the screen..sure he has a mediocre wavedash, but there are more things you can do to grab the ledge than wavedash back..

Now, I've never played M2K with Falcon, and obviously Hax knows better, but looking at the pure game mechanics, I am unconvinced that Falcon ought to have as hard a time as Hax's matches with M2K make it seem.

That doesn't work very well with falcon. He doesn't have a long enough wavedash for it.

Falcon can definitely do it dude. You just need to get a good wavedash.

 

[Mew2King]

the moonwalk thing ****s me up <_<. Can't react to that at all cuz you can dash away at any time

btw for those that don't know, moonwalking a lot can damage your controller. That's what Silent Wolf told me anyway. Just basing it off that.

 

[Osennecho]

I don't want to come across as an ***/piss anyone off, but....
Just pick up a counter-pick for Sheik with the tools to get past her edge game. M2K uses 2 characters heavily as well as Fox depending upon match-ups and players. He clearly has his own issues with match-ups. Mango uses Fox and Falco heavily. Armada picked up ****ing YL as his counter to Puff. A couple people only use one character, but they all have problems (although Hbox might have less with Armada gone). Even PP appears to be bringing back his Marth.

What high level/common characters does this really seem broken against...? Falcon? Yes. Puff? No. Puff has her own camping. Going off Hax's own post... Yep.... That's about it. Since when did melee start catering to one character? I want someone to answer that.

 

[Mew2King]

Someone should host a Melee national where you can ban one of your opponent's characters. So you are forced to be good all-around at melee to win the set.