Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar should both be banned

[Luigi player]

Give everyone six bans after the first match. the loser can choose from the remaining seven stages.

If everyone has six bans = 12 stages gone. If we'd really still have 7 stages, then we'd have 19 stages total, which isn't the case (unity ruleset has 13 allowed).
You probably mean 3 stagebans per person which would result into 6 stagebans total...

 

[SaveMeJebus]

If everyone has six bans = 12 stages gone. If we'd really still have 7 stages, then we'd have 19 stages total, which isn't the case (unity ruleset has 13 allowed).
You probably mean 3 stagebans per person which would result into 6 stage bans total...

That is assuming everyone bans different stages. besides, this will happen after every match so you will always have at least five stages to choose from

 

[Luigi player]

That is assuming everyone bans different stages. besides, this will happen after every match so you will always have at least five stages to choose from

Give everyone six bans after the first match. the loser can choose from the remaining seven stages.

No because you only get to ban six stages once. You still have seven stages to choose from

???

troll someone else xD

 

[Laem]

Why not use my rule? The opponent can either ban one starter stage or two counter pick stages. This rule also works well with a nine starter stage list since you aren't forced to win the first game in order to have a chance at winning the set against certain characters.

Two problems.

1. The starter-counterpick distinction is completely fabricated and senseless; ideally, it would not exist.
2. This throws an unnecessary, unfair bone to characters like ICs, Falco, and Diddy who thrive on "starters".

1. Ideally, every1 would prioritize health of the community over this ****.
2. wtf youre so wrong here lol. the 'bone' is towards MK, not those characters.

LP: both players can ban the same stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

1. Ideally, every1 would prioritize health of the community over this ****.
2. wtf youre so wrong here lol. the 'bone' is towards MK, not those characters.

Why is the health of the community not unified with what is logically correct? Is the community full of whiny pricks, or am I missing something here?
Furthermore, let's compare two rulesets...
1. Our current ruleset.
2. Our current ruleset with the change: MK cannot counterpick.

Which of those two is "throwing a bone" to someone? The one that treats each character equally with no special exceptions, or the one that is very clearly biased towards a small subset of characters/stages?

I'm done arguing with you. You don't even know what the **** you want

If I am unjustified in saying "I will not debate this further with you" after the crap you've been spewing, then my reputation must be way more shot than I imagined.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

???

troll someone else xD

I worded it wrong. It will only happen in the second and third matches (I was assuming that it was a two out of three set).

Here is an example:
Second round

foxmain bans
RC
Brinstar
Castle siege
FD
BF
Lylat cruise

diddymain goes to
Smashville

Diddymain wins

Third round
Diddymain does the same
Foxmain chooses stage

 

[Laem]

My reading skills could use some work
to throw a bone =/= to bone, sorry for that XD

And btw, you've already answered your own question:

Why is the health of the community not unified with what is logically correct? Is the community full of whiny pricks, or am I missing something here?

...You do realize that "what is logically correct" is not what most people do, right?

 

[Orion*]

RC and brinstar shouldn't be legal with or without metaknight in my honest opinion, but when you add stupid stages to a character that's greatest strength is that he has options in EVERY situation it shouldn't be surprising at all that you end up with these 2 ******** counterpicks.


cruise wouldn't be a very good metaknight stage if metaknights were intending to fight on it, but they don't lol so the stage remains stupid.

Pretty much this.

What would you say about MLG's data showing MK has a higher win % on Halberd and Delfino despite both stages being banned more?

**** MLG data. Like it's interesting to look at but jesus. It doesnt relate to high level play at all. If I show you budget player cadet getting ***** by lucas in like 5 sets on youtube and then was like LUCAS BEATS MK, you would tell me no because he played the MU wrong.

I hate when people bring up MLG Statistics, Redhalberd is trying to get the point across that at "top level" Metaknight 95% of the time WILL get a free win on either Rainbow Cruise or Brinstar.

My point in nicer ways

Why ignore that data though? That data with match-up slips gave a lot more info than the word to mouth people give a lot regarding than people throwing out, "Easy time out stage"

To change something requires convincing people to change if that is your goal. Data and knowing what the counter argument will be helps.

Nobody is ignoring the data. It's just not that relevant lmao

btw, in Melee many a stage was banned because of Fox solely.

This

True. I guess you could put it that way... If it was a game where the MK was clearly dominating. Ending the game with the MK at 3 stocks, low % as a time out? Yeah. That'd work. But when the opponent has already taken 2 stocks off the MK, this argument kinda loses credibility. Can you really claim that it's so one-sided when all it would've taken for brood to even it up at the end of round 3 was one or two hits, and he had already pulled that off several times in the match?

Considering m2k sded at only a little over a minute to shark then yeah lol

Only one complaint with this: YI is not neutral in the MK-Olimar matchup. It's Olimar's best stage. But fair enough, okay, you're right.

Explain how mk wins there then despite it being Olimars best stage and MKs worst in the MU

No because you only get to ban six stages once. You still have seven stages to choose from

 

[BSP]

You guys keep saying Brinstar is bad.

I really don't see what's broken on it. Explain what is broken about Brinstar. Not MK + Brinstar, Brinstar alone.

TBH in competitive soundness, I see Brinstar > Rainbow. You could argue about the scrolling (yes, lots of stages move, but few (3?) force you to move along with the scrolling, or die), timeouts, etc. for rainbow, but aside from MK stuff, what's wrong with Brinstar? Wait, scratch that, MK stuff isn't a part of the stage.

@P1- Fixed. Scrolling is a rarity in the game. Not following = Instant Death. Lava is just another hazard, and those are everywhere.

 

[Player-1]

brinstar forces you to move or you die from the lava, it's on the same terms of RC in that sense.

 

[Flayl]

You die from the lava at like 150%... Not exactly a fair comparison.

 

[Player-1]

The percentage of what you die at is irrelevant in terms of what I'm speaking of. The argument that brinstar is better for competitive play than RC just because you're forced to move with the stage on RC becomes invalid in that sense.

 

[Tesh]

Pretty sure Frigate and Delfino force you to move too.

 

[Kantrip]

Not only does Brinstar force you to move, but it forces you to move to a TINY platform and put yourself in a terrible position just to avoid the damage or death. For many characters, this means that every time the lava fully rises, you take damage or get punished (possibly even both), as the lava forces you to move to an unsafe position.

 

[felipe_9595]

Ban meta, is the easiest way to balance the game :B

 

[Arcansi]

I disagree completely, and I still feel that you have not provided particularly good or convincing evidence of the sort. Again, show me a match that demonstrates real domination based on the matchup and the stage. Things that won't help your argument are the MK going down to his last stock and the matchup being MK vs a character who is absolutely horrid on the stage (like Olimar or Falco) or horrid against MK (like DDD).

MK has 2 vs DDD, so everything 2 and above...

Falco - IC - Lucario - Wolf - Zelda - Ganondorf - Olimar - GW - DDD - Lucario - TL - Kirby - Rob - Pit - Peach - DK - Luigi - Shelda - Sonic - Ike - Shiek - Ness - PT - Yoshi - Lucas - Mario - Bowser - Samus - Jiggly - Link - Zelda - Ganon

32 characters.

thirty, two.

32/39 is 82 percent.

Your asking for data from 18 percent of characters.

I respect you BPC, as I should.

But seriously, what goes through your head when you post?

 

[#HBC | Red Ryu]

MLG data is very relevant, even more so when you look at stage bans and win%. Unless someone has something better? Halberd? Orion?

Arcansi had a better approach honestly.

 

[Arcansi]

MLG data is very relevant, even more so when you look at stage bans and win%. Unless someone has something better? Halberd? Orion?

Arcansi had a better approach honestly.

No offence, but I would feel like my approach was more warranted if someone would respond to it.

Feels like I'm almost invisible here.

 

[Life]

No offence, but I would feel like my approach was more warranted if someone would respond to it.

Feels like I'm almost invisible here.

Hah, I know the feeling.

In other news: your opponent forces you to move in ways far above what any stage in the game requires. Ban the opponent IMO.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

I worded it wrong. It will only happen in the second and third matches (I was assuming that it was a two out of three set).

Here is an example:
Second round

foxmain bans
RC
Brinstar
Castle siege
FD
BF
Lylat cruise

diddymain goes to
Smashville

Diddymain wins

Third round
Diddymain does the same
Foxmain chooses stage

..."The stage" being the one stage left?

And btw, you've already answered your own question:

It was rhetorical, and intended to throw light on how stupid we are sometimes.

MK has 2 vs DDD, so everything 2 and above...

Pfft. BBR matchup chart, y u so silly?

MK ****s on DDD. Like, bad. Like, "DDD's very worst matchup". MK-DDD is not 2 in MK's favor. Closer to 3 or 4. Furthermore, the idea that it's on the same level as Falco, ICs, Wolf, Olimar, Lucario, Pit, or sonic is kind of ridiculous.

Nah. From that list, we have:
-Zelda, Ganondorf, ROB, DK, Luigi, PT, Mario, Lucas (possibly), Bowser, Samus, Jiggs, and Link that MK flat-out ***** (G&W and Yoshi actually do considerably better on RC against MK than anywhere else, AFAIK)
-Olimar who is simply horrid on RC

So... That leaves:

Falco - IC - Lucario - Wolf - GW - DDD - Lucario - TL - Kirby - Pit - Peach - Shelda - Sonic - Ike - Shiek - Ness - Yoshi

And that's just from those you mentioned. The BBR matchup chart is pretty bad in that respect.

I could be wrong on most of this, but of those 32, now you suddenly have... 15. That's a little less impressive.

 

[SaveMeJebus]

foxmain wins game one on PS1

foxmain bans:
RC
Brinstar
Castle siege
FD
YI
Lylat cruise

diddymain goes to
Smashville

diddymain wins

diddymain bans:
RC
Halberd
Brinstar
Delfino
Castle Siege
Frigate Opheon

foxmain goes to
Battlefield

They are basically striking down from a full stage list only it is done much faster since it doesn't have both players going back and forth

 

[C.J.]

nvm, not bothering.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

The first shows an olimar losing in an already uneven matchup.

MK/Olimar is only a -1 on any other stage. So it's not that uneven.

Why not? They're the best data we have; they're all the data from 3 of the largest nationals in history.

MLG data is very relevant, even more so when you look at stage bans and win%. Unless someone has something better? Halberd? Orion?

We don't NEED to use the data if it is inaccurate. Who cares if it is the best we have?, it's USELESS.

There are so many reasons that the data is useless, it doesn't account for player skill, it doesn't account for dittos, etc... The time-out data is pointless too because it doesn't account for desperate suicidal attempts in the last few seconds.

no they weren't

Yes they were. Whether that was the reason they should've been banned or not is a different matter, but several stages were definitely banned because of Fox. Corneria comes to mind.

no it wasn't

I'm pretty sure Peach and Puff were part of the reason, at least.

Mk cannot counterpick or be selected when CP'd to brinstar/RC unless when CP'd to brinstar/RC when he was MK game 1. (to prevent pocket MKs and not let people force people off MK)

Add it to the list.

• Scrooging ban (occasionally at tournies)
• LGL
• Extended dimensional cape ban

Can has Tornado and Uair limit next? :3

Also @DDD/walkoffs: walkoffs were not banned because of DDD, they were banned because of the broken risk/reward options that they offered in many matchups.

Never been proven, every stage should be legal >_> What is broken risk/reward anyway, lol? It's a high-risk/high-reward situation, perfectly balanced. Just like Melee Rest, Ganondorf's Up Tilt, etc...

I'm gonna be honest, I literally facepalmed at that... I've never heard anything of the such.

Are you serious? Since when has walk off camping ever been an even mildly used or viable strategy? Especially when a lot of characters have projectiles etc etc. Nobody even tries this on Delfino or Siege because it's not safe... I'm not trying to be a **** I'm genuinely shocked that you're saying this is why they were banned...

THANKYOU REDHALBERD.

Anyway, don't ban Brinstar/Rainbow Cruise. Ban Meta Knight. If Meta Knight won't get banned, then add more surgical rules.

 

[Orion*]

MLG data is very relevant, even more so when you look at stage bans and win%. Unless someone has something better? Halberd? Orion?

Arcansi had a better approach honestly.

I already explained why I don't think it's relevant. If most of the people in said data are bad at the game (let alone laggy *** TVs but that's a completely different bite that I have about MLG) the data when related to high level play is flawed.

It's simply my view on it. You don't have to agree, but no data and working from scratch imo is better than flawed data. Unless there's something new that you have to say relative to it I probably won't bother explaining myself because degenerate arguments are boring lol.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

I like FGCU Viper's Rule.

of if you are CPing someone, and you are CPing with MK, you cannot CP to a stage that has a transparent floor, ie delphino, brinstar, rc, halberd.

Though Brinstar and RC are defintely biased towards MK. Theres no doubt. You don't need statistics. Have you played brawl? If so. Do you play MK? If the answer is no, and you've been to RC or Brinstar before then you understand.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Meta Knight is also broken on Smashville guys, just saying.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Look.

I think we can safely agree MK is broken
thus assuming that broken metaknight = x
and all stages in the game that are considered "neutral stages" are counted as 1
Any stages with a transparent floor are considered 2's
and RC and brinstar are considered 3.

We can safely assume that

X * 1 = X (Thus MK is broken)
X * 2 = 2X (MK is still broken. But twice as much)
X * 3 = **** MK

 

[M@v]

The only thing I don't like about all this is that a lot of characters can use bstar as a good cp. Rainbow has more legit reasons to ban it than just mk since a lot of people who can stay in the air can easily timeout non mks. Regardless, as much as I hate to see the other characters get screwed out of a moderately good cp stage, mk is just too dominant there.

At the very least, lets ban rainbow so we can use our ban on brinstar :3.

 

[Ussi]

Brinstar has a higher ban rate than rainbow, so more people like/prefer rainbow

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

Well.
I ban brinstar because MK's can shark me.
And then break the bubble thing.
and then continue to shark me.

Now what.

 

[Grim Tuesday]

I ban Rainbow Cruise because I am really good at the ditto on Brinstar.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

MK's dumb.
The end.

Give us two bans, or take away one of these.

 

[Ussi]

Take both away so neither of us who like brinstar or rainbow will argue why the one like is gone and not the other.

 

[[FBC] Papa Mink]

If i got two bans.
I'd ban both

Just make everyone happy and take out both

you know what. Let's just pull a Japan and only have FD SV and BF legal.

legit.
Cept my fav counter picks are Halberd and Delphino. Make Norfair Legal!

 

[MetalMusicMan]

Nobody likes watching Metaknight win on either of these stages.

Nobody likes playing against Metaknight on either of these stages.


Give me a reason why these stages should be legal...

Your personal preference doesn't dictate whether a stage is broken or not.

Data doesn't show how frustrated people get

Just some really, really poor and conflicting statements there :\





At any rate, while MK is extremely dominant on both stages (especially Brinstar), I would personally really hate to see more stages eliminated just because of him. That's not to say they should be left on just to "not give in to MK", but they shouldn't be banned for that reason either.

Additionally, there are plenty of other characters that do well but aren't "broken" on these stages (again, especially Brinstar). Is it fair to remove their best counterpicks because of Metaknight? I don't think so.

It's a pretty tough call to make and I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're trying to make it seem.

 

[~ Gheb ~]

The only thing I don't like about all this is that a lot of characters can use bstar as a good cp.

Sonic, Fox and Wario also can use Hyrule Temple as a good CP. I'm sure Falco can make amazing use of 75m as a CP. But things like these don't put a stage on a level where allowing them is up for debate. And it's not so much that these characters are "good" on these stages either but more that they can make use of a *tactic* that is broken on that stage. In other words: the stage is inherently broken, the character just has an attribute that allows him to avoid or make use of the broken mechanics better than others.

Brinstar is very much the same. It's not that "MK is too strong" here but more that MK can make amazing use of a broken *tactic* that works well on that stage [which already is a strong implication that the stage is broken]. The difference might not be big but it's still something to keep in mind. If it wasn't MK that could shark like that but any other character nobody would get the idea to ban the character but agree that the problem clearly lies within the stage - just as it does with Brinstar. But since MK is the only character that can actually shark well enough people confuse/can't tell apart these two approaches. In our case MK is simply the only character that has such access to the abuse of an already anti-competitive stage.

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Sonic, Fox and Wario also can use Hyrule Temple as a good CP. I'm sure Falco can make amazing use of 75m as a CP. But things like these don't put a stage on a level where allowing them is up for debate. And it's not so much that these characters are "good" on these stages either but more that they can make use of a *tactic* that is broken on that stage. In other words: the stage is inherently broken, the character just has an attribute that allows him to avoid or make use of the broken mechanics better than others.

Yeah, the difference being that Hyrule/75m/etc. aren't up for debate due to character overcentralization.

Brinstar is very much the same. It's not that "MK is too strong" here but more that MK can make amazing use of a broken *tactic* that works well on that stage [which already is a strong implication that the stage is broken]. The difference might not be big but it's still something to keep in mind. If it wasn't MK that could shark like that but any other character nobody would get the idea to ban the character but agree that the problem clearly lies within the stage - just as it does with Brinstar. But since MK is the only character that can actually shark well enough people confuse/can't tell apart these two approaches. In our case MK is simply the only character that has such access to the abuse of an already anti-competitive stage.

...Or it's just that MK is the broken one, seeing as he access to the same tactic on several stages?

 

[ElDominio]

Hey, let's limit edge grabs!
Hey, let's ban RC and brinstar!
Let's not take care of the real problem!

Go on forth Smash community! Beat around the bush until it's too late!

 

[OverLade]

True. I guess you could put it that way... If it was a game where the MK was clearly dominating. Ending the game with the MK at 3 stocks, low % as a time out? Yeah. That'd work. But when the opponent has already taken 2 stocks off the MK, this argument kinda loses credibility. Can you really claim that it's so one-sided when all it would've taken for brood to even it up at the end of round 3 was one or two hits, and he had already pulled that off several times in the match?

Yup. Brood was outplaying M2K by an amount never seen by a player from the USA. Shoutout to Japanese people for being godlike. When Tokido came to the USA and ***** everyone at CEO in Street Fighter and MvC3, do you think he had some kind of superior knowledge? Japan just has people who are on a different level at gaming than the USA does.

Only one complaint with this: YI is not neutral in the MK-Olimar matchup. It's Olimar's best stage. But fair enough, okay, you're right.

Now explain Bizkit vs. M2K at Cot5.

Easily 2 stocking M2K in a matchup that is not in your favor even on Yoshis island is the same thing as massively outplaying someone. Because let's be real, we've seen Dabuz and Rich beat M2K on neutrals before, but not like Brood did.

And Jason was scared vs Bizkit. I know it sounds like a double standard, but Pwii took Bizkit to game 3 last hit just like his set with M2K was. Coming from someone who has sat down and personally played M2K with Snake, (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2oF0I6UAjJk if you're interested) I don't think he was playing the matchup as well as we've seen him play it, while Bizkit was playing incredibly.

I disagree completely, and I still feel that you have not provided particularly good or convincing evidence of the sort. Again, show me a match that demonstrates real domination based on the matchup and the stage. Things that won't help your argument are the MK going down to his last stock and the matchup being MK vs a character who is absolutely horrid on the stage (like Olimar or Falco) or horrid against MK (like DDD).

The problem isn't the stage itself. Metaknight doesn't dominate many character on rainbowcruise, why is it do you think they aim for the timeout? Good characters have perfectly reasonable matchups against MK on cruise IF he actually fights them. But the problem is that Cruise allows MK to run away safely. That's literally the only reason he even beats Snake on cruise. The ship is terrible for him, so he can just plank and scrooge there. The horizontal part isn't good for him either, but he can still camp and run away and bait.

@Acrostic: now you're making more sense. However, MK does not just have to run. That's not how it works on that stage. It's not nearly in the same caliber as the stages that are banned for that reason.

That's what makes the stage good for MK, and that's the reason that it's all that top MKs really do when they CP the stage. They fight for a little, get a percent lead, then bait, or run away. And a baiting Metaknight when he has a superior position on a stage that forces you to move is the problem.

Story of my life.

Walkoffs are the story of your life?

The only thing I don't like about all this is that a lot of characters can use bstar as a good cp. Rainbow has more legit reasons to ban it than just mk since a lot of people who can stay in the air can easily timeout non mks. Regardless, as much as I hate to see the other characters get screwed out of a moderately good cp stage, mk is just too dominant there.

At the very least, lets ban rainbow so we can use our ban on brinstar :3.

How free the win is for MK depends on the matchup. But once again, the stages are pretty much unusable with MK legal because a lot of people have a pocket MK just for them.

Additionally, there are plenty of other characters that do well but aren't "broken" on these stages (again, especially Brinstar). Is it fair to remove their best counterpicks because of Metaknight? I don't think so.

It's a pretty tough call to make and I don't think it's as cut and dry as you're trying to make it seem.

Pocket Metaknights. The reason nobody besides Wario or GaW even dare go to brinstar, and MK ***** both of these characters there anyway. Metaknight is part of the reason that Brinstar and Rainbowcruise aren't even used by most characters that could get an advantage their. Snake could definitely take Ice Climbers or Faloc to Brinstar or Cruise, but because so many people have pocket Metaknights, it's not worth CPing yourself into a 40:60 matchup.

What's the point of Wario being good on Brinstar if half the people will just CP Metaknight when he goes there? These stages RARELY see play outside of Metaknight being involved, whether he's taking them or being CP'd to.

 

[Ussi]

People CP brinstar/RC intensionally switching themselves to MK as well for a last resort or just to tip the set into their favor after fighting evenly.

I heard someone CP MK + brinstar om a Ganon main in a MM