Question to the community: Why Complain?

[KAOSTAR]

I'd be willing to argue that Mango's Puff was in no way flashier than Hbox's. In fact if anything the only reason that Mango's puff ever seemed more interesting to watch is because he's just so stupidly much better than most of his opponents. If you ever go back and actually watch Mango's puff it's basically just Hbox's puff with better reads and fewer mistakes. Its not interesting to see at all and abuses Rest and Bair just as much, its just that no one on WC will ever admit to that cus it's mango(and then EC just takes it to the super extreme and does nothing but ***** about it)

Also, Flashy equates to unnecessary movement. Efficiency is the opposite of flashy, its the few movements to equal out to the greatest rewards. Flashy equates to movements with no actual meaning behind them, its movement for the sake of movement. It's more opportunities to screw up with literally no amount of added value to it. Flashy efficient doesnt exist simply because efficiency cant be flashy.

King's puff FTW!!!!!!!!!


So something like double waveshining falcon across FD vs Waveshining. Double waveshining would be most efficient would it not? Or does it depend on your goal. Moving falcon from point A to point B, Id say double waveshining is simply flashy and unnecessary. Doing more damage so he goes farther when you dsmash him at the edge he goes farther seems more efficient.

I think flashy can be efficient. You can wear flashy clothing, but it still serves the purpose of clothing you. Just because the jacket has glitter and tassles on it doesnt mean its not warm.

So I guess it depends on your definition of flashy, as in if u want to upthrow bair, but you shine bair instead. Id call the shine bair flashy, would you call it more efficient because it does more damage out of the same setup? What if you thought they would SDI the bair and live, but you ultimately wanted them to waste good SDI on a shine and then get baired anyway, while at a higher percent.

or are we simply arguing semantics and as soon as something is efficient its no longer flashy. Ie shine bair to put them at kill percent from the shine vs shine bair when they would DI from a simply bair no matter what.

 

[AXE 09]

I'd be willing to argue that Mango's Puff was in no way flashier than Hbox's. In fact if anything the only reason that Mango's puff ever seemed more interesting to watch is because he's just so stupidly much better than most of his opponents. If you ever go back and actually watch Mango's puff it's basically just Hbox's puff with better reads and fewer mistakes. Its not interesting to see at all and abuses Rest and Bair just as much, its just that no one on WC will ever admit to that cus it's mango(and then EC just takes it to the super extreme and does nothing but ***** about it)

Hbox is also stupidly much better than most of his opponents. It's fine if you think Hbox's jiggs is more entertaining. I know that many others do too, but I feel as though a majority would say that Mango's jiggs is flashier.

Mango:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naxhm1Ss1os
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkAR_jMo5nk

Hbox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoaIEuRlOYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rOIbhuJwc

Watching those matches, I would definitely say Mango's Jiggs is flashier, but I guess there really is no true definition of "flashy", so it's pretty easy to make arguments... They both seem to be just as efficient though.

Also, Flashy equates to unnecessary movement. Efficiency is the opposite of flashy, its the few movements to equal out to the greatest rewards. Flashy equates to movements with no actual meaning behind them, its movement for the sake of movement. It's more opportunities to screw up with literally no amount of added value to it. Flashy efficient doesnt exist simply because efficiency cant be flashy.

I'm pretty sure what you're referring to is being flashy without efficiency or meaning behind it. Being flashy is only a bad thing (in tourney) if you're doing it just for the sake of doing it. Just like any move or set of moves, you have to have reasons behind them, whether it's just a Utilt, or a double shine -> waveland -> bair. You just have to have a plan for each of your moves, whether they're considered flashy or not. Playing flashy is not a bad thing, and it does have value behind it as long as you have a plan.

 

[Beat!]

Yeah, imo "flashy" just implies that it's something that looks really cool/hard to pull off. That doesn't have to mean that it's never the best choice for a given situation.

 

[Jonas]

Ridiculous 0-death combos are also flashy, but don't tell me they're necessarily inefficient.

 

[JesiahTEG]

I think Hbox's style is awesome just due to the fact that it brings diversity to the Melee scene. That's what's awesome about Melee: So many different ways to play. He plays Jiggs and came up with his own playstyle that no one has yet. That's one more different challenge for all the top players to play against. Look at Armada.

Armada ***** everyone, even M2K, but can't beat Hbox, or hasn't yet...Poundslap says Armada is way better. Is he? Maybe? Hbox lost to M2K and PP, Armada has never lost to either. Maybe Hbox is better than Armada, but maybe Armada is overall more skilled, but can't beat Hbox's playstyle.

My point is, regardless of what the truth is Hbox's style is extremely challenging to overcome. It's an obstacle to anyone who wants to be the best, even if they've mastered every other matchup. There's nothing like it.

Also, it's such a silly topic to get caught up in. Hbox being gay I mean. I always think to myself, what if Justin Wong came from SF to play Melee? Could he rise to the top? How fast?

And as much as I don't like to admit it, I think he could become top 3 if not the best extremely fast. No one ever thought M2K would be taken over by Mango, and no one thought Armada with PEACH could come and **** everyone.

That answers my first question, it's definitely possible for anyone to rise to the top. Second, if he found and abused the gayest strategies possible, which he probably would, would everyone call him "gay?" Probably, but he wouldn't care at all. I don't even think SF players know the term "gay." Just effective.

I think most top players and even people below them have a lot of respect for Hbox now. From what I've seen, it's mostly just the spectators of the Melee community that watch it like a sport that have a problem with his playstyle. Even Axe doesn't hold anything against him although he has a personal distaste for it.

 

[crismas]

Hbox is also stupidly much better than most of his opponents. It's fine if you think Hbox's jiggs is more entertaining. I know that many others do too, but I feel as though a majority would say that Mango's jiggs is flashier.

Mango:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naxhm1Ss1os
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkAR_jMo5nk

Hbox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoaIEuRlOYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rOIbhuJwc

Watching those matches, I would definitely say Mango's Jiggs is flashier, but I guess there really is no true definition of "flashy", so it's pretty easy to make arguments... They both seem to be just as efficient though.

On initial thought, the difference between both of them is the type of reads... where Mango uses a more diverse moveset to pressure his opponents and HBox uses moves that are more straight to the point. So I can see where Mango would seem to be more "flashy" but I don't think it's less effective or efficient like you say. I just think it's just all in his mindset of how he plays.

I feel like "flashy" always meant doing something so unnecessary (usually tech skill related) and/or pretty regardless of how effective it is.

Either way, HBox is a smart guy and he should do his thing as he always has

 

[KirbyKaze]

Mango does a lot with his Puff.

 

[Divinokage]

I think Hbox's style is awesome just due to the fact that it brings diversity to the Melee scene. That's what's awesome about Melee: So many different ways to play. He plays Jiggs and came up with his own playstyle that no one has yet. That's one more different challenge for all the top players to play against. Look at Armada.

Armada ***** everyone, even M2K, but can't beat Hbox, or hasn't yet...Poundslap says Armada is way better. Is he? Maybe? Hbox lost to M2K and PP, Armada has never lost to either. Maybe Hbox is better than Armada, but maybe Armada is overall more skilled, but can't beat Hbox's playstyle.

My point is, regardless of what the truth is Hbox's style is extremely challenging to overcome. It's an obstacle to anyone who wants to be the best, even if they've mastered every other matchup. There's nothing like it.

Also, it's such a silly topic to get caught up in. Hbox being gay I mean. I always think to myself, what if Justin Wong came from SF to play Melee? Could he rise to the top? How fast?

And as much as I don't like to admit it, I think he could become top 3 if not the best extremely fast. No one ever thought M2K would be taken over by Mango, and no one thought Armada with PEACH could come and **** everyone.

That answers my first question, it's definitely possible for anyone to rise to the top. Second, if he found and abused the gayest strategies possible, which he probably would, would everyone call him "gay?" Probably, but he wouldn't care at all. I don't even think SF players know the term "gay." Just effective.

I think most top players and even people below them have a lot of respect for Hbox now. From what I've seen, it's mostly just the spectators of the Melee community that watch it like a sport that have a problem with his playstyle. Even Axe doesn't hold anything against him although he has a personal distaste for it.

1. Don't listen to Poundslap, he thinks Armada is God.. while obviously he's just human like the rest of us.

2. I have played Hbox twice in tournament, his style is not gay.. he's very smart. When you experience an actual battle, it's much different than what everyone sees. It seems like most simply judge a book by it's cover.. so ya.. =P

 

[Mike G]

I mean, I'm not a fan of puff but from the times I've played hbox I could tell that he's a super smart player that plays super effective lol


people hated on Drephen's sheik for the same thing back in the day too.

 

[Dark Hart]

I have to agree with kage

Hbox just has incredible control of that puff

sooo fast

 

[stelzig]

I don't really think the commentary with mango was directed at hbox that way. Just making fun of the way he plays. Like how people also talk about shroomed being the worst player and ****.
I personally enjoy watching most hbox matches, but I still found it quite funny listening to.

Then again I know mango is known for hating hbox, but I still just took it as some friendly trashing.

 

['V']

Was all of that really necessary..?

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Changed the title since this thread has really nothign to do with Hbox but rather why people should shut up and just learn to beat it rather than complaina bout it (and you arent allowed to have threads about specific users. you're welcome ;3)

 

[CloneHat]

I hated fighting Puff before HBox started winning big tournaments, but he's definitely not a boring player to watch. Puff may be a slow, floaty character, but the matches are still just as interesting as anyone else's. Just not Puff dittos. Please no.

Also PB&J uploads videos with him doing random stuff, like the Monty Hall problem. Pretty funny

 

[Brookman]

I hate Hbox cause he and I look so similar.

 

[Bones0]

The most annoying part about hearing people complain about Hbox and Jiggs in general is that it is so hypocritical. I want to just slam my head against a cement wall when I hear people going "OMG no johns! no johns! no johns... no johns?! NO. JOHNS. WTF Jiggs is gay and cheap!" Pick a side. If you want to talk about how he plays "gay" that's fine by me, but don't go around calling "no johns" when people complain about you spamming lasers as Falco, waiting on the ledge for gimps as Marth, counterpicking Poke Floats and running away all game as Fox, or chaingrabbing/tech chasing as Sheik. People don't ***** about Hbox cause he plays gay. Almost all top players play gay in some form. People ***** about him because he plays gay and wins. There's always something to complain about, but at the end of the day he's still playing gay and you're still losing to him sooooo...

 

[Lovage]

Hbox is also stupidly much better than most of his opponents. It's fine if you think Hbox's jiggs is more entertaining. I know that many others do too, but I feel as though a majority would say that Mango's jiggs is flashier.

Mango:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Naxhm1Ss1os
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QkAR_jMo5nk

Hbox:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UoaIEuRlOYs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-rOIbhuJwc

Watching those matches, I would definitely say Mango's Jiggs is flashier, but I guess there really is no true definition of "flashy", so it's pretty easy to make arguments... They both seem to be just as efficient though.

wow lol i never actually watched apex finals till today

watching my favorite game getting played like that makes me feel really depressed lol

 

[Zodiac]

tl:dr , but everyone complains about hbox cause he plays in the gayest way possible. Not saying he's got no skill, but we all know theres better players that place just as well as him and dont use tactics that gay.

 

[Druggedfox]

Meh Hbox isn't honestly that gay to me, I agree with kage. Hbox in no way plays the gayest way possible.

Watching someone get wobbled 0-death (no offense wobbles) is infinitely "gayer" and more upsetting.

You know what's gayer than a jiggs bairing? A fox platform camping that jiggs.

 

[Yung Mei]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1MRX0SD4

chibosempai CLEARLY takes the cake for gayest jiggs in the history of the universe - AND he still lost


i still dont like HBOX tho. good **** winning and all, but goddamn seeing him bAir the **** out of his opponents is basically seeing the same match over and over again

 

[BEES]

Wait... people still hate Hbox? I thought Hbox was cool now that some people have finally caught up to him.

 

[-ShadowPhoenix-]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FPk1MRX0SD4

chibosempai CLEARLY takes the cake for gayest jiggs in the history of the universe - AND he still lost


i still dont like HBOX tho. good **** winning and all, but goddamn seeing him bAir the **** out of his opponents is basically seeing the same match over and over again

loooooooooooooool thats like the most pathetic puff ive ever seen

anyways...

hbox is mad boring, but look at the bright side. he isnt the MOST boring one. theres plenty of horrible ones who just try to time you out...

like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHfcafE9ig

omfg puffs voice in whatever language this is almost convinces me to kill myself

 

[Yung Mei]

loooooooooooooool thats like the most pathetic puff ive ever seen

anyways...

hbox is mad boring, but look at the bright side. he isnt the MOST boring one. theres plenty of horrible ones who just try to time you out...

like this one:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTHfcafE9ig

omfg puffs voice in whatever language this is almost convinces me to kill myself

idk, i thought that match was more entertaining than HBOX, mostly because i couldnt stop laughing at how bad jigg's voice is. OH GOD I CANT UNHEAR

 

[AXE 09]

So I can see where Mango would seem to be more "flashy" but I don't think it's less effective or efficient like you say.

But I wasn't saying that either one of them were less efficient lol. I was just trying to point out the differences in their playstyles, even though they both have pretty close to the same success.

 

[Bamesy]

Melee is too flexible for everyone to play the same (with the exception of a million bajillion spacies that rinse cycle repeat around the world lol)
Irregularities make life interesting. Ain't that right Jeff. My pika uses Utilt effectively.

 

[AXE 09]

Wtf I've been trying to use Utilt lately but it just won't work for me lol. How you other Pika players use that move is beyond me.

 

[Druggedfox]

Wtf I've been trying to use Utilt lately but it just won't work for me lol. How you other Pika players use that move is beyond me.

Play smash 64 for like 5 hours straight then try to play pikachu in melee, see what happens?

=D

 

[AXE 09]

Play smash 64 for like 5 hours straight then try to play pikachu in melee, see what happens?

=D

Hahaha after playing Brawl Pikachu for a while (worst idea ever) I kept trying to do auto canceled Fairs in Melee. Horrible, horrible.

 

[Mic_128]

Feel free to remake the thread without it being about HBox.