Project M Social Thread

[Octave]

Here's one video showing HA crouch --> F-smash (!)

For anyone who hasn't played B+ Boozer extensively this will also serve to show what we're using as a base for additional changes. Scary.

If anyone was wondering where it shows it, its right after 20 seconds in.

That was pretty amazing. I'm going to have to do that sometime.

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Also, sometimes I've noticed that when you get grabbed while recovering(b4 landing) and get thrown out, you have no mid-air jump, please fix this, on melee you gaind your 2nd jump back.

This has already been fixed in Brawl+.

this may be right or a wrong answer

since in melee when you get grabbed and not hit (grab release) you still get your Jumps/Up Back and snake doesn't :o so this maybe only for snake or sonic too

 

[vectorace]

i must say i'm incredibly anxious for this and from what ive seen a few posts ago u guys aren't to far?

 

[Shell]

Aren't too far from beta

RC1? We've got a while.

 

[Rikana]

Just a question. Any word on fixing the walljumps/ledgetech (jump)? The horizontal distance is further, angle is higher, and animation is much faster in Melee.

 

[vectorace]

Aren't too far from beta

RC1? We've got a while.

thats awsome for beta and RC1=??????? i play the game and minor SA/BB hacking i dont know all the HAD stuff and acronyms. . .

 

[Shell]

RC1 = Release Candidate 1

 

[GPDP]

thats awsome for beta and RC1=??????? i play the game and minor SA/BB hacking i dont know all the HAD stuff and acronyms. . .

RC1 = Release Candidate 1.

Basically, when the game mechanics are pretty much all finished and put in place, and all that's left is to balance it and tweak any imperfections, at which point test versions are released until one is settled on for gold.

 

[ETWIST51294]

About Olimar's falling speed, can it be like Melee Marth's fall speed? Like, floaty but not too floaty.

 

[Octave]

Aren't too far from beta

RC1? We've got a while.

Is that open beta for everyone or beta for some? I remember reading Shanus's first post something about beta for those making intelligent posts (which I, for the most part, have not).

 

[GPDP]

Is that open beta for everyone or beta for some? I remember reading Shanus's first post something about beta for those making intelligent posts (which I, for the most part, have not).

Considering we're still in the alpha period, it's still gonna be in closed testing for some time. Hopefully once it goes to beta, it'll become open.

By the way, has there been progress on removing powershield buffering, so that the PS only comes out by timing the button press?

 

[Shadic]

If you really want in, you could do some development. I think that's the easy route.

 

[RandomLax]

Can anyone tell me about D3, Wario, and Mk? (Yay HAD fix)
Also this is just something that was bothering me, will Ike get a sweetspot?
And what about Kirby's Fair, is it the brawl/melee version, or 64?

 

[ETWIST51294]

If you really want in, you could do some development. I think that's the easy route.

I wish I could, I really do. (i has no computer, I'm on a PS3) =(

Can anyone tell me about D3, Wario, and Mk? (Yay HAD fix)
Also this is just something that was bothering me, will Ike get a sweetspot?
And what about Kirby's Fair, is it the brawl/melee version, or 64?

I don't think Ike will have a sweetspot and I'm like 95% sure Kirby won't have his 64 fair.

 

[JayFizzy]

MKs just a Jiggs that combos less and gets combo'd worse. He won't be a problem.

There is NO way that jiggs comboes more than MK. MK has UpAir comboes that are really hard to get out of, can UpB out of almost anything, down air combies into its self off stage, Glide attack Nair Ftilt is almost a guaranteed combo at lower percents, and does around 35%, Fair comboes into itself at mid percents.

MK definitely has way better comboes than jiggs.

 

[Deleted member]

There is NO way that jiggs comboes more than MK. MK has UpAir comboes that are really hard to get out of, can UpB out of almost anything, down air combies into its self off stage, Glide attack Nair Ftilt is almost a guaranteed combo at lower percents, and does around 35%, Fair comboes into itself at mid percents.

MK definitely has way better comboes than jiggs.

MK will not be a problem. You're referring to vBrawl MK. All the characters will be as useful as possible that balance allows.

 

[ETWIST51294]

There is NO way that jiggs comboes more than MK. MK has UpAir comboes that are really hard to get out of, can UpB out of almost anything, down air combies into its self off stage, Glide attack Nair Ftilt is almost a guaranteed combo at lower percents, and does around 35%, Fair comboes into itself at mid percents.

MK definitely has way better comboes than jiggs.

No he doesn't. You know why? Because Jiggs' horizontal movement keeps combos going constantly. MKs uair combos are easy as **** to DI out of. Jiggs' fair, nair, bair, and uair almost always combo into each other.

 

[JayFizzy]

MK will not be a problem. You're referring to vBrawl MK. All the characters will be as useful as possible that balance allows.

Im not worrying about MK being a problem, and no i was referring to the B+ MK. MK was over nerfed in brawl+ and will probably be over nerfed again in PM.

 

[Dark Sonic]

There is NO way that jiggs comboes more than MK. MK has UpAir comboes that are really hard to get out of, can UpB out of almost anything, down air combies into its self off stage, Glide attack Nair Ftilt is almost a guaranteed combo at lower percents, and does around 35%, Fair comboes into itself at mid percents.

MK definitely has way better comboes than jiggs.

You mean MK has uair combos that do an AMAZING...30%. And an up B that only works when he's NOT IN HITSTUN (fyi, space animals have a 1 frame attack that's invincible that they can jump out of. How often do you see them breaking out of combos?). A dair that is really no more efficient at gimping than Marth's fair/bair/dair (especially dair), Fox's shine/bair, Falco's dair/bair, Sheiks Fair/Bair/Nair/Needles, Jiggs Fair/Bair/Nair/Dair/Side B, ect, ect. MK's edgeguarding is no big deal.


MK should be fine.
Glide attack clanks with every move in the game <_<. I can ****ing jab it and then punish MK before he even lands .

btw, that "ridiculous" combo that you're talking about that has NO ADDITIONAL FOLLOWUPS does a whopping 43%. Wanna know what Marth can do to someone of MK's weight and fall speed? Let's just say that he fights more than just spacies in his combo videos


He should be fine in P:M. If anything, he might be a little underpowered (though recoveries getting worse in general will indirectly buff him. By how much I don't know for sure).

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

Im not worrying about MK being a problem, and no i was referring to the B+ MK. MK was over nerfed in brawl+ and will probably be over nerfed again in PM.

I can assure you mk is not that overnerfed as everyone says in B+, he is legit, only in a very good hand he will be Mk Prime

and I'm not joking >.>

*NAMQ* is not a Mk main btw, never uses him

 

[JayFizzy]

Dark sonic, did you just say that 30 percent and 43 percent are nothing special? Wow. I honestly do not see where a simple 43% combo isnt good. And duh its not gonna have any follow ups? I dont get your logic, comboes will always have to end.

And i dont think that i have ever seen MK's edgegaurding and no big deal in the same sentence, ever. Im going to give you the benefit of the doubt and think that you have never fought a good MK.

 

[Revven]

With the higher gravity, I'm thinking DS is thinking that MK's edgeguarding won't be as absurd as it is in vBrawl. With each jump, he would descend a certain amount (depending on his grav) thus making it hard for him to chase people offstage. Thus the "no big deal".

 

[Wind Owl]

As Shanus already stated, Metaknight was given high gravity but his jumps were not compensated, weakening his vertical recovery considerably and making him prone to pseudo-fastfaller combos.

 

[shanus]

While also behaving like a fast faller ^^

 

[jalued]

With the higher gravity, I'm thinking DS is thinking that MK's edgeguarding won't be as absurd as it is in vBrawl. With each jump, he would descend a certain amount (depending on his grav) thus making it hard for him to chase people offstage. Thus the "no big deal".

that may be, but the recovering opponent will also have a harder time getting back onto the stage due to the gravity and smaller sweetspot, so MK wont have to go as far to edgeguard.

having 5 jumps will make him one of the best edgeguarders in the game, end of story.

And in melee, gimps >>> % kills

also dont forget his dair which will cover the entire sweetspot...

 

[Dan_X]

@shanus: Have you guys figured out ledge snap size yet?

 

[Almas]

That was done a while ago, Orca. It's still being discussed whether it will be changed, though. I mean, I'm fairly sure it will be changed. But the extent of which has not been decided. Essentially it's an argument about whether reverse edge grabbing enhances or inhibits the edgeguarding game, I think.

 

[jalued]

That was done a while ago, Orca. It's still being discussed whether it will be changed, though. I mean, I'm fairly sure it will be changed. But the extent of which has not been decided. Essentially it's an argument about whether reverse edge grabbing enhances or inhibits the edgeguarding game, I think.

i feel that reverse edge grabbing unfairly enhances the edgeguarding game for the gimper, which in a game with higher gravity isnt needed. Also it is so much easier to make a mistake with your hogging in melee than brawl+, there should be a possibilty of ****ign up hogging in melee required a commitement

i edited my horrendous english

 

[Dan_X]

That was done a while ago, Orca. It's still being discussed whether it will be changed, though. I mean, I'm fairly sure it will be changed. But the extent of which has not been decided. Essentially it's an argument about whether reverse edge grabbing enhances or inhibits the edgeguarding game, I think.

Nice! Obviously the snap distance MUST be changed, but by how much, as you've put it, is the tricky part. What about a Melee snap range? I'm sure you guys have thought of this already, however, is such a range too tiny?

As for reversed grabbing... I tend ti like it. I hate the idea of dying just because I was facing the wrong way. It seems gimmicky to me. Imho, it's the one thing Brawl got right. I'm actually a bit confused about how direction is determined during some up+Bs. For example, I play Falco, if I recovered from beneath FD, rising diagonally to the right towards the right most ledge, which way would I be facing? Would I be facing to the right because that's the direction I sent my up+B? That's the part of taking out reverse grabbing that bothers me... I feel like you'd end up dying for stupid reasons, for get trying to edge guard. I think reducing the snap size to that of Melee's should be enough.

On a related note, I think tether characters are going to be much more beastly in P:M as their super fast auto-sweetspotting of ledges will make it that much easier for them to gimp the opposition. This could be different if it's discovered how to make tethers grab the stage like in Melee, but who knows if that will ever happen.

oh... and I've yet to have my question answered. Has Sheik's Uair been restored to its Melee self? Because it's garbage in Brawl+ by comparison. I think at the loss of her tether, that the buffing of her Fair (I already know the Fair was buffed) and Uair would be just.

 

[jalued]

Nice! Obviously the snap distance MUST be changed, but by how much, as you've put it, is the tricky part. What about a Melee snap range? I'm sure you guys have thought of this already, however, is such a range too tiny?

As for reversed grabbing... I tend ti like it. I hate the idea of dying just because I was facing the wrong way. It seems gimmicky to me. Imho, it's the one thing Brawl got right. I'm actually a bit confused about how direction is determined during some up+Bs. For example, I play Falco, if I recovered from beneath FD, rising diagonally to the right towards the right most ledge, which way would I be facing? Would I be facing to the right because that's the direction I sent my up+B? That's the part of taking out reverse grabbing that bothers me... I feel like you'd end up dying for stupid reasons, for get trying to edge guard. I think reducing the snap size to that of Melee's should be enough.

regarding falco..both fox and falco could turn around during the final animation of their upB's.. as could falcon. It would be character specific. The main problem with reverse grabbing is that it makes it alot easier for the onstage player to edgeguard, as they are no limited by their facing direction: think falcon scar jumping to knee for edgeguard, with reverse grabbing, even if he misses he can grab the edge to still edgeguard. Without reverse edgeguarding though, you have to commit to your decision

also makes marios cape better :D

 

[Dan_X]

regarding falco..both fox and falco could turn around during the final animation of their upB's.. as could falcon. It would be character specific. The main problem with reverse grabbing is that it makes it alot easier for the onstage player to edgeguard, as they are no limited by their facing direction: think falcon scar jumping to knee for edgeguard, with reverse grabbing, even if he misses he can grab the edge to still edgeguard. Without reverse edgeguarding though, you have to commit to your decision

also makes marios cape better :D

hmm. So can each character still turn at the apex of their recovery (or was that just in Melee)?? I think I saw mentioning of this earlier in the thread.. I forget what I read but... I'm assuming that if characters can't currently turn at the apex of their recovery then they'll be made to do so if reverse grabbing was taken out, right?

Oh, and as for Mario's cape.. I'm sure they can make it effective without removing reverse grabbing. Just saying.

 

[Wind Owl]

Not all characters turned around.

 

[Anth0ny]

I wouldn't even dwell on balance right now.

Really, mechanics govern all balance. Physics govern all balance.

Neither of those are finished yet ^^

This should be posted on every page.

We need to really stop talking about balance right now and focus on getting Melee perfectly into Brawl.

What's the deal with percentages? I have a list of all the damage percentages for every non-special move on me if anyone needs it...

 

[Rikana]

That was done a while ago, Orca. It's still being discussed whether it will be changed, though. I mean, I'm fairly sure it will be changed. But the extent of which has not been decided. Essentially it's an argument about whether reverse edge grabbing enhances or inhibits the edgeguarding game, I think.

Take out reverse ledge grab except for upB's. If you want to ledge hog quickly, Brawl's RAR is still in. RAR a wavedash to ledge hog. With reverse ledge grab there, we can't wall jump off the ledge.

I mentioned this a while ago - Falcon can "instant" wall jump. Dash attack to the very edge of the ledge and the momentum of the dash carries you over. Quickly tap back and forth for a wall jump out of dash attack. Reverse ledge grab destroys this option. I'm talking about Melee by the way.

Edit: speaking of wall jumps. I mentioned this a few posts back too. Wall jump and ledge tech's jump needs to jump further and higher, angle changed slightly, and animation is faster. Just making sure this point won't be missed.

 

[shanus]

Take out reverse ledge grab except for upB's. If you want to ledge hog quickly, Brawl's RAR is still in. RAR a wavedash to ledge hog. With reverse ledge grab there, we can't wall jump off the ledge.

I mentioned this a while ago - Falcon can "instant" wall jump. Dash attack to the very edge of the ledge and the momentum of the dash carries you over. Quickly tap back and forth for a wall jump out of dash attack. Reverse ledge grab destroys this option. I'm talking about Melee by the way.

Edit: speaking of wall jumps. I mentioned this a few posts back too. Wall jump and ledge tech's jump needs to jump further and higher, angle changed slightly, and animation is faster. Just making sure this point won't be missed.

Regarding walljumps and all that. Thats a minor subtlety in which we can alter the velocities and all no problem. Animation wise, a little annoying to do, but not too bad.

About 10-15 characters have had their ledgegrab range altered so far to perfectly match melee. We'll need to complete the rest and approximate the values to brawl characters as well. We haven't removed reverse grabbing yet, but I might do that "during fall only," but this point is still highly debated.

 

[Dan_X]

Not all characters turned around.

k.

In all honesty, regarding reverse grabbing, I think the biggest reason that I'd like to take it out is that it lends more importance to tech skill... that is, you'll have to wavedash backwards to grab the ledge, instead of simply walking off and holding back.

It'll make wavedashing more important for ledges. Which I do think is a good idea.

 

[Dan_X]

Sry for 2x post!

About 10-15 characters have had their ledgegrab range altered so far to perfectly match melee. We'll need to complete the rest and approximate the values to brawl characters as well. We haven't removed reverse grabbing yet, but I might do that "during fall only," but this point is still highly debated.

That's awesome that 10-15 characters have already had their snap ranges tweaked! Sounds promising. As for the mention of not being able to grab the ledge backwards during falling, I like that idea a ton. This will allow characters who space their recoveries correctly to grab the ledge. While at the same time, it should disallow people from being able to run off the stage and hold back to quick edgeguard-- again putting emphasis on wavedashing and tech importance.

 

[kupo15]

As for reversed grabbing... I tend ti like it. I hate the idea of dying just because I was facing the wrong way. It seems gimmicky to me. Imho, it's the one thing Brawl got right. I'm actually a bit confused about how direction is determined during some up+Bs. For example, I play Falco, if I recovered from beneath FD, rising diagonally to the right towards the right most ledge, which way would I be facing? Would I be facing to the right because that's the direction I sent my up+B? That's the part of taking out reverse grabbing that bothers me... I feel like you'd end up dying for stupid reasons, for get trying to edge guard. I think reducing the snap size to that of Melee's should be enough.

The fact in melee that the direction you face plays a huge role made it so great. It's exciting to see characters exploit their moveset to overcome the no reverse grabbing. IMO, it doesn't make sense to be able to grab backwards. Also in your example, in melee falco would be able to grab the ledge if he sweetspots because he does a little flip at the end of the up b so Idk what your problem is. He isn't the only one who can "grab the ledge backwards" and those who can't generally have a better up b anyway IIRC correctly.

Reverse ledge grabbing should be removed IMO especially in a game that is supposed to feel like melee where melee's edge game defined its gameplay.

 

[shanus]

The fact in melee that the direction you face plays a huge role made it so great. It's exciting to see characters exploit their moveset to overcome the no reverse grabbing. IMO, it doesn't make sense to be able to grab backwards. Also in your example, in melee falco would be able to grab the ledge if he sweetspots because he does a little flip at the end of the up b so Idk what your problem is. He isn't the only one who can "grab the ledge backwards" and those who can't generally have a better up b anyway IIRC correctly.

Reverse ledge grabbing should be removed IMO especially in a game that is supposed to feel like melee where melee's edge game defined its gameplay.

Well as I mentioned, its a point we are definitely entertaining for the "fall actions." This would let characters still reverse grab (if they can during their upB's already, not all can) during the actoins for the upB, but not speedhugging, etc. This would let Ike still do fancy tricks with upB, etc.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Dark sonic, did you just say that 30 percent and 43 percent are nothing special? Wow. I honestly do not see where a simple 43% combo isnt good. And duh its not gonna have any follow ups? I dont get your logic, comboes will always have to end.

You obviously have not played melee. You know how MK is a fast faller in P:M <_<


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KIYn3TtRr_w

And when I was refering to MK's edgeguarding being nothing special, I wasn't referring to the fact that he's now a fast faller. I'm comparing him to THE TOP TIERS in melee.

Fox can shinespike you in the middle of your up B with invincibility. Falco can not only combo into a finishing dair, but he can also FORCE low recoveries from the stage just by lasering to bring you down (and low recoveries are rather easy to edgeguard.) Marth's fair out-disjoints pretty much every recovery in the game, sends them at a low angle, and combos into itself (not to mention Marth's vertical recovery allows him to go VERY low when edgeguarding, bringing the opponent with him.) Sheik basically has the same off stage edguarding as Marth, with the addition of needles. Jigglypuff has 5 jumps, a bair that ties in range with MARTH'S FAIR (wtf?), a fair that acts as a sex kick, a side B that sends the opponent backwards and combos into bair, and the best aerial mobility and best horizontal recovery in the game. Not to mention the most severe punishment for landing on the stage (edgehog->rest 0_o).

Why should I be worried about MK again? Sure his dair is big and sends at a good angle. Sure his edgeguards cover the entire sweetspot range. So did Marth's, Falco's, Fox's, Sheik's, Jigglypuff's, Peach's, Samus's, Ganondorf's, ect. Stopping low recoveries IS NOT HARD.