Project M Social Thread

[kupo15]

Kupo, I believe we have frame-by-frame control of exactly what you can grab. No need to be so broad as to include whole segments of moves -- if you wanted you could even boot up BBox and say he should grab both ways from frame X to frame Y.

oh that's neat

The only character that didn't follow your rule of being able to grab the ledge backwards = good recovery were Mario, Doc, and Roy.... and they had the worst recoveries in the game.

I'm not sure if I follow but there was a lot more than 3 characters that could not grab the ledge backwards in melee

And I just realized something. With RAR in, everyone has a super waveshine edge hogging thingy thats better than waveshining. It used to be only spacies could run forward>quickly pivot in their shine>wavedash to the edge. But now with RAR, everyone can dash forward>RAR>wavedash to the edge. Not sure if thats a good idea...

 

[Wind Owl]

Neither have an alternate recovery option. You can just hang on the ledge and roll when they get close and they just die.

And I just realized something. With RAR in, everyone has a super waveshine edge hogging thingy thats better than waveshining. It used to be only spacies could run forward>quickly pivot in their shine>wavedash to the edge. But now with RAR, everyone can dash forward>RAR>wavedash to the edge. Not sure if thats a good idea...

... Why not? Why should only the top of the top have that ability?

 

[Deleted member]

oh that's neat
I'm not sure if I follow but there was a lot more than 3 characters that could not grab the ledge backwards in melee

And I just realized something. With RAR in, everyone has a super waveshine edge hogging thingy thats better than waveshining. It used to be only spacies could run forward>quickly pivot in their shine>wavedash to the edge. But now with RAR, everyone can dash forward>RAR>wavedash to the edge. Not sure if thats a good idea...

Probably not. Some characters could use that reverse ledge grabbing as exclusive techniques that only certain characters possess. Yoshi, for example would benefit as he has no real up-b and he can play with his eggs and aerials offstage then return backwards. Or toss an egg forwards offstage and grab the ledge backwards. Ness is helped with that as it allows him to use his jump to grab the ledge backwards after his combo play or KO's offstage which leave him vulnerable with his lackluster recovery.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Won't Olimar and Ivy be able to wall grapple tho?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Won't Olimar and Ivy be able to wall grapple tho?

You're forgetting that this kind of coding may simply not happen. This isn't like replicating fall speed or weight, or changing an animation. This is trying to make brawl recognize that a tether is hitting a wall (which afaik is not used in brawl AT ALL).

 

[Shell]

@Kupo I meant those three have terribad recoveries and can't grab backwards.

 

[Rikana]

If anything, we can always give ZSS, Ivysaur, and Olimar new upB's.. lol. They just weren't meant for Melee. Especially Olimar because his upB is more special than ZSS and Ivysaur since its dependent on the amount of pikmins there are. But we'd still need to work out how tethers can grab on walls anyways..

But, if we ever do decide to go that route, I have some random ideas. For example. ZSS and Samus are one so why not give ZSS the same upB special Samus has (I'll miss that whip with spiking property though and I'm sure ZSS players don't want to lose that). Instead of multihits, we can make it hit once on contact.

Ivysaur.. His vines seem very suitable for his upB. I'm totally lost on how I'd Melee'ify his upB.. Make him lash out his whip and he can somehow pull himself through thin air? Basically.. what he does already except he doesn't need to lash on a ledge.

Olimar.. no comment. Same situation but distance is dependent on the amount of pikmins?

Well, I don't like these ideas but I threw it out there anyways. I hope that there will be a code that allows tethers to latch on walls. Or we can just make them just have their Brawl upBs only latching on to the ledge. Poor recovery for them but make it up by making them better on stage I guess.

 

[ETWIST51294]

You're forgetting that this kind of coding may simply not happen. This isn't like replicating fall speed or weight, or changing an animation. This is trying to make brawl recognize that a tether is hitting a wall (which afaik is not used in brawl AT ALL).

thats gay...:sadface:

 

[ItachiFire2]

If anything, we can always give ZSS, Ivysaur, and Olimar new upB's.. lol. They just weren't meant for Melee. Especially Olimar because his upB is more special than ZSS and Ivysaur since its dependent on the amount of pikmins there are. But we'd still need to work out how tethers can grab on walls anyways..

But, if we ever do decide to go that route, I have some random ideas. For example. ZSS and Samus are one so why not give ZSS the same upB special Samus has (I'll miss that whip with spiking property though and I'm sure ZSS players don't want to lose that). Instead of multihits, we can make it hit once on contact.

Ivysaur.. His vines seem very suitable for his upB. I'm totally lost on how I'd Melee'ify his upB.. Make him lash out his whip and he can somehow pull himself through thin air? Basically.. what he does already except he doesn't need to lash on a ledge.

Olimar.. no comment. Same situation but distance is dependent on the amount of pikmins?

Well, I don't like these ideas but I threw it out there anyways. I hope that there will be a code that allows tethers to latch on walls. Or we can just make them just have their Brawl upBs only latching on to the ledge. Poor recovery for them but make it up by making them better on stage I guess.

ZSS has her Down B as a recovery. Ivysuar could have like a double team attack that's similar to shiek's recovery.

 

[Wind Owl]

You're forgetting that this kind of coding may simply not happen. This isn't like replicating fall speed or weight, or changing an animation. This is trying to make brawl recognize that a tether is hitting a wall (which afaik is not used in brawl AT ALL).

Shanus has a very promising lead on how to create this, but we're waiting on Dantarion to implement line addition into Fighter.pac (and then for a file replacement code that supports it -_-).

Shanus has also stated that even if we can implement this, there is no need for all Up B's to be affected. Olimar and Zamus will probably keep their tethers, while Samus, Link, and Lucas will gain Melee Zairs, and Ivysaur might have a vinecopter

 

[ETWIST51294]

Man!!! Why will Olimar get his ****ty recovery back?!? Why can't he just wall grapple???

 

[Wind Owl]

Man!!! Why will Olimar get his ****ty recovery back?!? Why can't he just wall grapple???

It's an option, but think about it. Samus and Link both have up B's IN ADDITION to their Zair recovery. That means they get bomb jumps, double jumps, up B, tether wall jumps, and airdodge. Olimar, by comparison, would only get a double jump, a tether wall jump, and an airdodge. As it is now, his recovery is able to VERY QUICKLY grab the ledge from virtually any angle, as long as no one is occupying it. Without the additional recovery options, his would be very limited and if he was even horizontal with the stage he would simply die due to its 45° angle. Olimar's recovery is actually quite good, it just has one glaring caveat.

A better option would simply be to allow him to use both versions of up B at once, that is, he could sacrifice a Pikmin and get a hit in at 45°, then if after a couple frames (when an opponent would have been hit off the ledge) it attempts to grab the ledge again.

We need to really stop talking about balance right now and focus on getting Melee perfectly into Brawl.

Who's "we?" The developers are already doing this, and I don't see the purpose of this thread containing nothing but "let's make it like Melee!" "Yeah!" "I agree!" "Good idea!"

This thread serves much greater utility as a discussion for balance and other mechanics.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Olimar has the worst recovery in Brawl. I would much rather have the wall grapple with the AD. His recovery's going to be even worse now that the gravity's higher and you get more invincibility frames on the edge. We could figure out something. I dunno, I always imagined Olimar being better with the wall grapple but w/e.

Suddenly I feel anti-hyped for Olimar ;_;

Shanus, as a former(well, I think you're former) Olimar main, how do you feel about this?

 

[Cyan_Blau]

Wall Grapple

Olimar has the worst recovery in Brawl. I would much rather have the wall grapple with the AD. His recovery's going to be even worse now that the gravity's higher and you get more invincibility frames on the edge. We could figure out something. I dunno, I always imagined Olimar being better with the wall grapple but w/e.

I agree that all these ledge grapple were wall grapples in Melee. It might be needed to change it from ledge to wall grapple ^^!

But it seems to be hard because you can't walls behave like ladges! - It woulbe be too crazy xD

 

[Rikana]

I agree that all these ledge grapple were wall grapples in Melee. It might be needed to change it from ledge to wall grapple ^^!

But it seems to be hard because you can't walls behave like ladges! - It woulbe be too crazy xD

I don't get it. Wasn't that the point of the conversation and what the backroom people are trying to do - allow tethers on walls?

 

[Wind Owl]

Olimar has the worst recovery in Brawl. I would much rather have the wall grapple with the AD. His recovery's going to be even worse now that the gravity's higher and you get more invincibility frames on the edge. We could figure out something. I dunno, I always imagined Olimar being better with the wall grapple but w/e.

Suddenly I feel anti-hyped for Olimar ;_;

Shanus, as a former(well, I think you're former) Olimar main, how do you feel about this?

We COULD give him both, now that I think about it. If the edge is occupied, he does wall grapple; if it's not he snaps to it.

Also, don't feel anti-hyped. We aren't leaving any characters in the dust here.

 

[jalued]

We COULD give him both, now that I think about it. If the edge is occupied, he does wall grapple; if it's not he snaps to it.

Also, don't feel anti-hyped. We aren't leaving any characters in the dust here.

tbh though, olimar will always have a beast onstage game.

Ivysaur is more the problem...


OMG, just thought of cool idea...

what if ivysaurs leaves, and olimars pickmen stuck in the wall, and hence could be jumped on... or even better, create a new sweetspot option for their tether?

same for links boomerang if required..

does sound easier to code

 

[stRIP]

what if ivysaurs leaves, and olimars pickmen stuck in the wall, and hence could be jumped on... or even better, create a new sweetspot option for their tether?

same for links boomerang if required..

does sound easier to code

that idea made me spill my manly goo all over the desc

 

[Wind Owl]

Uh, good idea (although not so sure how humane shoving a Pikmin into the side of the stage and stepping on it is) but that's way harder to code than the wall tether. We'll see.

 

[jalued]

Uh, good idea (although not so sure how humane shoving a Pikmin into the side of the stage and stepping on it is) but that's way harder to code than the wall tether. We'll see.

maybe stepping on them is, but what about coding them to be a new sweetspot?

 

[Wind Owl]

Even harder, lol. That mechanic doesn't exist anywhere in the game, AFAIK.

 

[jalued]

Even harder, lol. That mechanic doesn't exist anywhere in the game, AFAIK.

so you have no idea how to make things grabeable by tether? i understand though that the hardest part would be making the game think pikemen are grabable when in the wall, rather than anywhere

 

[Wind Owl]

If you could name an item that allows this, then I'd say it's possible. But as it stands, this seems like something that would have to be written in assembly, which is at the very least a ***** to code. Our ASM coders are also very busy at the moment.

So, it's an interesting idea but there are easier (and less game-changing) alternatives.

 

[jalued]

If you could name an item that allows this, then I'd say it's possible. But as it stands, this seems like something that would have to be written in assembly, which is at the very least a ***** to code. Our ASM coders are also very busy at the moment.

So, it's an interesting idea but there are easier (and less game-changing) alternatives.

links arrows stick into walls, as do sheiks needles. do they count? isnt there a code from them you could first of all transpose to pickmen and leaves?

snake's C4 also sticks to surfaces

motion sensor item sticks to walls


another option would be if the leaves bounced off the wall, inctead of slowing down (thinking of the bumper item for the codes), and then if you could jump on the leaves, could be a new recovery option for ivysaur. Would decrease his leaf spam tactics though

 

[Wind Owl]

That's not the hard part. We plan to copy that functionality for use with Melee-styled tethers.

The hard part is allowing you to jump off of or stand on said surfaces (assuming you want it to cost a jump and not simply act like a spring board, which would probably be quite easy, actually), and the likely impossible part would be allowing them to be snap-tethered onto.

 

[Boo Mansion]

Man!!! Why will Olimar get his ****ty recovery back?!? Why can't he just wall grapple???

I can't see Pikmin being able to grab a wall, they don't have anything to "dig" into it with. I mean it makes sense that Samus and Link can, and to a less degree, Lucas (since his snake can use its fangs). But how would a Pikmin even attempt to puncture a wall with those tiny fingers...?

Olimar's recovery should remain his biggest weakness. His on stage game should more than make up for it, I'm assuming.

 

[Wind Owl]

Realism, in MY Smash Brothers? GTFO.

 

[Mota]

This truly does look awesomely promising.

 

[V-K]

I can't see Pikmin being able to grab a wall, they don't have anything to "dig" into it with. I mean it makes sense that Samus and Link can, and to a less degree, Lucas (since his snake can use its fangs). But how would a Pikmin even attempt to puncture a wall with those tiny fingers...?

Their tiny fingers are stronger than you think or why would they be able to hang on a big raging monster?

 

[Boo Mansion]

Their tiny fingers are stronger than you think or why would they be able to hang on a big raging monster?

You do have a point there. But that's a bit different from digging into something, like how Link's Hookshot has a big spike on the end. The mental image I get of the way Olimar and his Pikmin would look while tethering walls is pretty lulzy. I guess we'll have to wait and see what happens with him though.

Shanus, I have a question about Mario being able to wall kick after the peak of his up+b. Will he follow out into free fall after this? If so, will he still be able to wall kick again while in free fall? Or did you make it so that when he wall kicks after his up+b that he can still move freely but cannot up+b again until landing on the stage of grabbing the ledge?

 

[Deleted member]

Why not make Ivy, ZSS, Olimar have the option to auto snap tethers with start up lag, wall grapple the wall at any angle from their up-b from 0,30,60,90 degrees (less start up lag), and have them able to use up-b tether 3 times in the air until once again touching ground?

That's got to securely give them a recovery while still having a general weakness. Also, an offstage game may be created.

 

[shanus]

Just to reiterate, i believe i know how to make tethers syick to walls, i just cant do it yet as the article heads are null offsets in the pacs and only show up in OSA2 and as such cannot be modified until it supports line addition.

 

[[TSON]]

Olimar has the worst recovery in Brawl.

lolololol

oh god ur funneh

 

[shanus]

And prolimars reocvery isnt even that bad, especially in vbrawl where you have 10 hours to DI properly

 

[ETWIST51294]

So whos recovery is worst?

 

[NAMQ_DrunkeNFeasT]

So whos recovery is worst?

Link recovery in Vbrawl is terrible

I can easily say Ganon's and C.F but these two have better than Link

Link lacks of what is called recovery in Vbrawl, in melee in the other hand he can Tether the wall, Bomb Jump, AD+Tether

lol more choices than brawl ^^

so LOLimar is not the worst recovery

 

[Dark Sonic]

So whos recovery is worst?

Ivysuar says hi <_<

 

[Cyan_Blau]

I don't get it. Wasn't that the point of the conversation and what the backroom people are trying to do - allow tethers on walls?

Sorry I may have no access to the backroom ...
______________

And for Ivysaur: Maybe there could be a tether on wall recovery method for it too.

 

[Alphatron]

Actually, removing the auto snap tether recovery for Ivysuar and Olimar while replacing it with the ability to tether to a wall will just make their recoveries worse.

 

[Dan_X]

@shanus: what does it mean to say that the HAD code momentum scales by frame? Does the distance of the WD depend on the angle at which you AD into the ground (like in Melee).