Project M Social Thread

[humble]

Really, the best thing to do would be to give Ivy, and Oli new up-Bs, and zairs.

ZSS already has down B, her up-B gives her a huge momentum boost, her side B and up B can be used multiple times in the air, really her recovery is fine.

As I posted a long time ago, Ivy should have a vinecoptor, or a rising drill attack (think nair tilted upwards) for an up-B, and her current up-B should be angled from 45 degrees to 0 (flat horizontal) do less damage, not send her into freefall, remove the hop on it when used, and take away all landing lag, essentially making it a standard zair.

Olimar should have the same thing for a zair, where it goes straight forward, does less damage, no hop or free fall, no landing lag, making it a regular zair. Also it would be lulzy to see a zair which grows in length the more pikmin near. I have a random idea for an up-B for Oli (however any new up-B for oli would be good) Essentially, my idea is that Oli's up-B causes him to jump off one of his pikmins heads, killing the one he jumps off of but hopping upwards similar to the hop Olimar recieves in vBrawl when he uses his up-B. It would allow him to rise a bit, but also one would have to keep in mind your pikmin, as they die each time you use his up-B hop. And if he is out of pikmin he can't rise and falls to his death, and he also can't use his zair either. His recovery would be good and useful, but also very pikmin dependant, so his usual tactical play of using pikmin is important.

 

[Wind Owl]

@shanus: what does it mean to say that the HAD code momentum scales by frame? Does the distance of the WD depend on the angle at which you AD into the ground (like in Melee).

It means it works exactly like Melee. And that it's sexy. That's all you need to know.

 

[Shell]

Actually, removing the auto snap tether recovery for Ivysuar and Olimar while replacing it with the ability to tether to a wall will just make their recoveries worse.

Err... not sure why you think that. We're talking full melee tether system if possible. Tethering a wall enables hanging from tether in wall, which then allows for a pseudo jump when pressing A, which can sweetspot if spaced correctly. The versatility of the Melee tether system in combination with using MAD -> tether recovery is an extremely significant buff over the current option which, despite moderate range, has essentially one recovery path.

The angle on Ivy / Oli 's up-B's might need to be changed to horizontal, or (even better) maybe make a zair attack which is similar but at a more horizontal angle to avoid interfering with other attack applications of Up-B.

 

[Deleted member]

Actually, removing the auto snap tether recovery for Ivysuar and Olimar while replacing it with the ability to tether to a wall will just make their recoveries worse.

Which is why I suggested an idea of angles to tether grapple from increments of 0, 30, 60, 90 0, 45,90 degree angles for recovery options as well as auto snapped up-b with more start up lag to balance it off, and the ability to use up-b 3 times even without touching the ground.

If that and other techniques don't stop them from getting gimped every time offstage then I'll eat my hat. ZSS, Olimar, and Ivy would still have weaknesses offstage but options to combat the weaknesses to not guarantee their death when they're a millimeter offstage. MK, Marth, Sheik, Fox would probably wreck them offstage still, but average characters probably wouldn't.

 

[humble]

Don't you guys think it just makes more sense to switch their bizarre and bad tethers to a more standard form and put it on zair, freeing up their up-B for something else?

 

[Deleted member]

Don't you guys think it just makes more sense to switch their bizarre and bad tethers to a more standard form and put it on zair, freeing up their up-B for something else?

And these characters would lose what makes them unique- their tether up-b's which are a very valuable and different game mechanic that adds depth to characters.

 

[Wind Owl]

TheSilenceOfNoOne and I were recently discussing giving Olimar and Ivysaur the ability to grab the wall with their Up B, like Link and Samus, and tetherjump off, but they can then grab it again repeatedly and jump again with a decay similar to walljumps. They would then also have the option of snapping the edge if no one is on it (they can choose which they want). If they ever miss a wall or ledge, they go into freefall.

This would give them a very vertical but very powerful recovery with a sick ledgeguarding game (on stages with walls, at least), without changing their fundamental recovery method.

 

[humble]

And these characters would lose what makes them unique- their tether up-b's which are a very valuable and different game mechanic that adds depth to characters.

These two characters have some of the worst recoveries in the game because of their "Valuable and different game mechanic" I am all for unique characters, but I also don't think that is a reason to make them worse. Also it doesn't add depth, its a really simple system- up-B when near a ledge and it snaps to it; if someone is on the ledge, it can't grab the ledge and you fall to your death.

While I understand you don't want them to become bland, a vinecopter and pick'n jumps would both be more unique, more useful, and better. I'm not saying take their tethers away, they should keep them as zairs, but in a useful way, that works and allows them to properly function. If you really had these characters best interests at heart you would see that ultimately keeping the up-B tether simply isn't a good idea when we could do something about it.

 

[Shell]

I'd just like to remind everyone that in the end, Ivy and Oli's recoveries should still be among the worst in the game (balanced by amazing on stage gameplay), just not laughable in the event we get hog-while-rolling-up working making it so they can't use a recovery move at all for 90(?) frames.

I'm talking about a version of Melee Link (pretend he's **** on stage ) with tether only.... still rather versatile by changing MAD direction or not at all, changing tether location, changing time before activating the tether jump while hanging etc... but it remains a weakness and not a strength.

I like big strengths and big weaknesses (Ganon, anyone?), but if you guys reaally wanted I guess we could go for decent recovery and okay stage game.

 

[Wind Owl]

One of the problems with giving Ivysaur her up B as a Zair is that her up B kills. Do you really want a lagless, quick, ranged poke that has a deadly sweetspot? I don't.

 

[humble]

TheSilenceOfNoOne and I were recently discussing giving Olimar and Ivysaur the ability to grab the wall with their Up B, like Link and Samus, and tetherjump off, but they can then grab it again repeatedly and jump again with a decay similar to walljumps. They would then also have the option of snapping the edge if no one is on it (they can choose which they want). If they ever miss a wall or ledge, they go into freefall.

This would give them a very vertical but very powerful recovery with a sick ledgeguarding game (on stages with walls, at least), without changing their fundamental recovery method.

This would work on a stage like Yoshi's island, but a stage like delphino or halberd means they are just as bad as in vBrawl. Why not give them zair tethers which act the same as samus and links, so they could do what you describe if they want, but they aren't limited to it? 2 options, tether or up-B, as opposed to one, only tether.

 

[humble]

One of the problems with giving Ivysaur her up B as a Zair is that her up B kills. Do you really want a lagless, quick, ranged poke that has a deadly sweetspot? I don't.

You could simply reduce the damage and knockback on it fairly easily.

 

[Wind Owl]

But... that's part of her character.

 

[humble]

I'd just like to remind everyone that in the end, Ivy and Oli's recoveries should still be among the worst in the game (balanced by amazing on stage gameplay), just not laughable in the event we get hog-while-rolling-up working making it so they can't use a recovery move at all for 90(?) frames.

I'm talking a version of Melee Link (pretend he's **** on stage ) with tether only.... still rather versatile, but it remains a weakness and not a strength.

I like big strengths and big weaknesses (Ganon, anyone?), but if you guys reaally wanted I guess we could go for decent recovery and okay stage game.

I don't want their recoveries to be 10fuxpro, I just dislike the idea of only a tether to recover. Pick'n jumps for oli remove his pikmin and each time he uses it, he gets worse with less pickmin, and it still doesn't go very high overall, but it is at least an option to use it. Ivy's vinecopter or drill rise would suck like vBrawls link up-B.

I just want them to have the options at least, so they aren't laughable instant dead when they are offstage. I think they would still be weaknesses, but wouldn't cause people to cry when they move offstage.

 

[humble]

But... that's part of her character.

Well so was Falcos kick shine; but it got changed. So was Ganon's U smash, but it got changed. So was a whole lot of things that got changed from vBrawl to Brawl+, but they got changed because they wanted a better game.

 

[Wind Owl]

Those changes were reverted to their Melee counterparts. This is not Brawl+.

Ivysaur is a new problem; she did not exist in Melee and now we're trying to give her a balanced Melee feel.

 

[humble]

This is based off the brawl+ code changes, so it is Project Brawl+M really. xD

I just think it would give her a definite more melee feel, make her less awkward to play, and have more options while still being balanced and keeping weaknesses and strengths.

 

[Shell]

Yes, the base for each character is B+ 6.0 GSH1, but since the project began we've been going over each character and melee-itizing most of their frame data and animations, or just taking things in a slightly new direction for some brawl characters.

I still like the 'Melee link with only a longer hookshot' end goal.

Actually, "Melee samus with bomb stalling and her long tether but lacking Screw-Attack" is more like it, as Ivy could still use Dair to stall.

For any Brawl players who can't picture what I'm talking about, play around with Samus's bomb recovery --> AD --> Zair or at least watch some good videos and you'll see how versatile it is.... of course Ivy's dair isn't as useful as bombs, but that's why the recovery is still a weakness rather than strength, I suppose.

 

[Roxas215]

Is ivy keeping her dair momentum from brawl+? Cause if so ivy's recovery is not nearly as bad as yall making it out to be. Dair and faster leaves makes it more then possible for Ivy to recover.

 

[Sneak8288]

what if you guys make the tether similar to melee, you know how you can sweetpot the ledge with the tether and zip straight to the ledge if someone isnt holding it but if someone is you go straight up. what if you make the ledge grab-able with tether while someone is holding it. In melee ppl would sweet spot with the tether and wait trying to mindgame with recovery but at the same time they could still be edgeguarded with like a ledgehop sex kick with the right timing

 

[ETWIST51294]

Whoever said Olimar should have 2 grapples with the up B and the zair I love you.

 

[Shell]

what if you guys make the tether similar to melee, you know how you can sweetpot the ledge with the tether and zip straight to the ledge if someone isnt holding it but if someone is you go straight up. what if you make the ledge grab-able with tether while someone is holding it. In melee ppl would sweet spot with the tether and wait trying to mindgame with recovery but at the same time they could still be edgeguarded with like a ledgehop sex kick with the right timing

That is what we have been talking about for the last several pages.

Is ivy keeping her dair momentum from brawl+? Cause if so ivy's recovery is not nearly as bad as yall making it out to be. Dair and faster leaves makes it more then possible for Ivy to recover.

This is totally true.

However, consider this planning in case we do find a way to implement hogging-while-rolling-up... as Ivy then can't use a recovery move at all for an absurd amount of time.

 

[Sneak8288]

i thought u guys just wanted it to just tether walls... im sayin is there a way to make it just grab the ledge while someone is holding it... similar to melee but not exactly the same

 

[Shell]

i thought u guys just wanted it to just tether walls... im sayin is there a way to make it just grab the ledge while someone is holding it... similar to melee but not exactly the same

We are proposing as close to Melee's awesome tether system as possible.

If someone's on the ledge in Melee, I believe you can tether through them and still grab it and go into the hanging animation.

 

[Rikana]

However, consider this planning in case we do find a way to implement hogging-while-rolling-up... as Ivy then can't use a recovery move at all for an absurd amount of time.

Really? D: I actually like Brawl's ledgehog mechanics better since you'd have to be more accurate in terms of timing. I hope we keep Brawl's ledgehog mechanic instead.

I'm guessing the knockback on stage spikes aren't gonna be insane like Brawl's?

 

[Roxas215]

That is what we have been talking about for the last several pages.




This is totally true.

However, consider this planning in case we do find a way to implement hogging-while-rolling-up... as Ivy then can't use a recovery move at all for an absurd amount of time.

O ok. That i can understand. I just didn't get why people were making ivy's recovery out to be so horrible. Is she still easily gimped? Of course. But that's part of her char. But by no means is it impossible to recover with ivy.


Also this oli talk makes no sense. Do yall know how insane olimar is with hitstun? A char with strong ground game as oli should have a weak recovery to balance him out.

Then again i don't main oli so my opinions probably carry no weight.

 

[5ive]

Whoever said Olimar should have 2 grapples with the up B and the zair I love you.

This is madness.

but wooow, cstick with zair

 

[ETWIST51294]

Yeah, for the sake of how stupid Oli would be with a zair can you make it do 2 damage, have no knockback, and if you hit the pikmin they die immediately?

 

[Dark Sonic]

Is it just me, or does Marth not lean nearly as far forward on his f-smash in brawl as he does in melee?

Case in point http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x1qwMjaHCYc#t=1m39s

0_o

 

[Deleted member]

lol Olimar and Ivy with Zair would be the exact thing to make their onstage game so good to warrant their recoveries to be #$%& but in all seriousness... how about this concept? It hasn't been discussed much yet.

2 Tether recoveries from Ivy + Olimar in the air until once again touching ground (excludes ledge). Prevents 90 frames of edgehogging from rolling off ledge.

Normal Up-b will sweet spot ledge but take some frames of start up lag. The sweet spotted tether will have the properties of Melee where the tether grapples the ledge and the other player may grab the ledge still. Useful for gimping then edgehogging.

Air diagonally up + a will cause a 45 degree tether grapple, while an air dodge + a horizontally will cause a 0 degree tether grapple (Samus's + Link's Melee tethers). Or however the heck one could implement the angled tethers well with controls. Melee tether plus options.

The recoveries would still be gimpable and retain normal weaknesses of tethers. However, since these characters depend on tether recoveries only, it is reasonable to expect more options and an at least reasonable recovery.

There's best of both worlds. Discuss plz.

 

[ETWIST51294]

I want them both to grapple. :3

And I want their zairs to suck serious nutsacks for offensive purposes. Thats my opinion.

 

[Dan_X]

Hmm. I'm so psyched for P:M. I've said it a million times, but I can't wait!

@wind owl: that bit about the HAD code sounds excellent! Me is so psyched!

 

[shanus]

Stop dwelling on olimar and ivy tether system. Olimar is already insanely good, so don't get greedy. Character weakness reigns supreme.

 

[V-K]

Will Olimars fsmash be still so pwnsome?

 

[ds22]

Always loved Melee and it's technique's.
Certainly going to switch over when it comes out.

 

[humble]

Ivy with the worst(?) or near it, aerial movement, combined with an extremely easy to edgehog tether as her only option to get on the ledge and to the stage, and needs something done about it. She is a mediocre character on stage, and a crap character off it.

I would agree that Olimar is pretty solid on stage, but I don't think you should still keep it laughably easy to ledgehog him. And remember, with RARed wavedash ledgehog, everyone can easily get on the ledge and hog it, probably faster then speedhug in brawl.

 

[ETWIST51294]

wtf is a RAR WD??? You mean a turnaround WD? >_>

 

[Octave]

^ I was wondering the same thing, actually. :/

 

[ValTroX]

I've been playing melee a bit too much for the last couple of days(sadly with Melee's dumb cpu) and I can't wait for this >.<
I've been playing B+ far too long, and when i got my hands on melee Mario again, it was just pure awesomeness

 

[Octave]

Oh you know what, I just thought of something. How big is this project going to be in file size by the end? Any predictions? I have an extra 1gb SD card lying around that I was planning on using but if it's supposed to be bigger than that I'll have to get a new one.