Project M Social Thread

[Dan_X]

@Shell, which characters would u say are in need of new ATs, or tweaks? I mean... As for low tier Melee characters. I can't even think of the low tiers (aside from maybe Bowser) off the top of my head. I'm on my iTouch. Which characters could use a boost?

 

[SiD]

That sounds pretty cool... maybe we could name it something like Quick Attack Cancel, or QAC.

>.<

Oh haha....I didn't really follow Brawl after I realized I didn't like it. Sorry.

 

[Shell]

For charizard, try composing a list of what you suspect his strengths and weaknesses to be. Then get creative with an AT that would play to his strengths and maybe even cover a few weaknesses occasionally (Mario Up-B Walljump).

Things like that deepen the character and make them more fun to play. Go ahead, give it some brainstorming.

 

[ETWIST51294]

Bowser, Link, Zelda, Yoshi, Ness, err, well, G&W, Pika, Kirby might and thats about it.

edit: I think Zards strengths are

-pretty good spacing game
-good uair combos
-multiple jumps
-good dash speed
-amazing grab
-pretty good WoP
-above average techchasing

and his weaknesses are

-pretty bad recovery overall
-terrible air speed
-big
-terrible glide
-easily comboed
-limited approach

So, can we work with this?

 

[humble]

Zard could have IASA frames on the start of his side-B for some lulzy rock fakeouts, like side-B, they pull up shield, interrupt with a grab. Or start using it in the air as you return to the stage and then interrupt it with airdodge to trick your opponent. The IASA frames would only be at the start, if you commit to the move then you have to complete it, but it allows for visual mixups. Rockdash w/ side-B SH wavedash interrupt? xD

Give his Fair an exta landing hitbox, which goes the full size of the flames with hitstun and knockback, maybe make fair last longer and have it multihitting, like G&Ws bair turtle but in a fiery way?

Make it so if you hold B while doing Fly (up-B) at the end he will automatically go into glide, like metaknight does, but make his glide faster (hes a frickin dragon) this would be pretty cool.

 

[Wind Owl]

People need to take a step down and come back to earth a little bit. Loads of assumptions and all going on it here :-O

The more over-the-top hype in this topic the better

 

[Shell]

@Shell, which characters would u say are in need of new ATs, or tweaks? I mean... As for low tier Melee characters. I can't even think of the low tiers (aside from maybe Bowser) off the top of my head. I'm on my iTouch. Which characters could use a boost?

Don't think of it in terms of tiers (Brawl+ or Melee), think about the complexity of the character.

Ike, for example. Quick Draw JC may be enough shake things up, but you're welcome to make alternative suggestions.

Between clawhopping, flame-canceling, fortress-hogging, boozer's already got a better head start on ATs over some... but that's not to say he can't use moar.

 

[Rikana]

Bowser, Link, Zelda, Yoshi, Ness, err, well, G&W, Pika, Kirby might and thats about it.

edit: I think Zards strengths are

-pretty good spacing game
-good uair combos
-multiple jumps
-good dash speed
-amazing grab
-pretty good WoP
-above average techchasing

and his weaknesses are

-pretty bad recovery overall
-terrible air speed
-big
-terrible glide
-easily comboed
-limited approach

So, can we work with this?

lol slightly rephrasing what Sulfur said. I see you've been checking the Charizard thread for Brawl+.

Anyways, because Brawl+'s Charizard is currently shiet (Charizard doesn't get much attention ), I'm hoping Charizard will do much better with P:M and I'm thinking he already is. His fAir in Brawl+ has quite a bit of lag (well, not much but its quite noticeable upon landing). With P:M's l-cancel, I'm sure he'll be able to spam it and make the opponent have a difficult time getting in.

I don't think he'll be as bad as Brawl+'s. That's what I think at least. I really want to be able to use Charizard. In the meantime, I'll try thinking of an AT specifically for Charizard.

Edit: It'll be interesting if you can charge Rocksmash though. The longer you charge it, the more powerful (knockback wise)

 

[Shell]

Rocksmash is already a multi-hit combo set-up (DI dependent) and eventually kill move with ~10 frames of endlag. I don't think further centralizing his game around rocksmash with an AT would be good design, personally.

 

[Wind Owl]

Give his glide super armor :O

 

[ETWIST51294]

Yeah, because his glide is ****.

edit: >_> <_< shut up rikana lol

 

[leafgreen386]

I think what we do with charizard (or any of the PT pokemon) largely depends on whether people want to see the pokemon like in brawl (just PT), brawl+ (either with PT or independent) or if they want to see them entirely independent. I doubt anyone wants to see it like in brawl, but if people elect for the last option, the pokemon would each be receiving a new downB, which the possibilities for would be quite nearly endless. If the brawl+ route was taken... I'm sure we could come up with something. A doc-esque upB cancel, perhaps?

 

[ETWIST51294]

I vote B+ version because I don't want them to have down-bs. lol IDK why.

 

[krazyzyko]

The what?

Reverse shield grab, on Brawl if you're shielding and tap the joystick backwards and press Z (before letting the shield completely go) your charcter turns around and grabs the opposite way it was facing. You couldn't do that in melee, but this will come real handy if added to P:M.

G&W's up+B and Nair seems much better in Brawl IMO.

 

[GPDP]

I heard mentions in this thread of a "RARed wavedash." Does this mean that I could conceivably dash, turn around as if I'm going to RAR, but instead of performing an aerial, I could wavedash, effectively performing a backwards wavedash right out of a dash?

That sounds freakin' sick. It would make edgehogging delicious.

 

[~tgm_Zeej]

Out of curiosity, can Ness still do DJCs as wicked low in P:M as he can in Brawl+?

 

[Dan_X]

I personally would love to see the Pokemon get their own down+bs. Is there anyway to go this route without demoving regular trainer? I don't mind them being permanently broken up, as I would love to see new down Bs. However, at the same time, their switching is unique. It'd be cool of the two could coexist, the solo pokemon containing new down Bs.

As for Kirby, I have no ATs ATM, as I will brainstorm this more later but. I would absolutely love you guys I you made him like his 64 counterpart. Here are some changes I would love.

Kirby:
downair tip (very bottom of the drill) Is a spike. The drill portion of the attack can be used on a foe on stage, then the landing lag l-canceled into a u-tilt. This could, depending on DI, lead to another L-cancelled drill to u-tilt combo (*cough pillaring cough*).

In addition, the falling portion of his up+b should spike (if it doesn't already). It's easy to see this move coming, it should be better at edgeguarding. It looks as though it should spike, it crashes straight down on the enemy.

I think the drill pillaring would be so great, granted, if you miss the l-cancel the enemy will end your attempted combo. I really think we should use his 64 self as the mold. God he was fun in 64.

K this is random, just popped into my head. Anyway, what if Kirby had an AT where just before touching the ground and pressing B would result in a really swift swallow. At the very least, maybe all start up lag could be removed. This may be somewhat pointless, as I haven't played Kirby much in Brawl, and can't recall how quickly his suction enacts. I just think it could be a useful surprise AT. What do u guys think?

 

[krazyzyko]

I personally would love to see the Pokemon get their own down+bs. Is there anyway to go this route without demoving regular trainer? I don't mind them being permanently broken up, as I would love to see new down Bs. However, at the same time, their switching is unique. It'd be cool of the two could coexist, the solo pokemon containing new down Bs.

Maybe they could change it to one of the D-pad buttons + getting new down+Bs!

 

[GPDP]

Hmm, come to think of it, you'd also be able to wavedash backwards while in turn facing backwards right in the middle of a dash. The potential is amazing.

We should call this the Reverse Wavedash, or RWD.

 

[Dan_X]

Btw.. Will ICs have wobbling? :D

 

[Archangel]

I vote B+ version because I don't want them to have down-bs. lol IDK why.

you need to at least state a valid reason as to why they shouldn't have down B...Say something like well this is suppose to be like melee and the closest to PT in melee is Zelda/Sheik and they didnt have down B's -_-. I could understand that. However I don't want them to is just.......idk a dumb reason to me.

Btw.. Will ICs have wobbling? :D

....I hope not.....but if it is I won't care. I just don't want to have to sing I'm on a boat anymore.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rrHzRUZJEYg

 

[Kix]

Mario resolved!

 

[Wind Owl]

Uh... SHeLL and camelot already put a ton of work into remaking Melee Mario's Dair. He also has the FLUDD from B+ that Cape designed, except now with higher gravity it's a beast at gimping.

 

[Kix]

Good enough for me!

 

[Almas]

Yes, RAR WDing works.

Wobbling won't work unless it is put in intentionally. It won't be. The fact that it was soft or hard banned pretty much everywhere indicates this. ICs already have huge grab combos, some approaching infinites.

 

[Boo Mansion]

Examples of cool ATs on Mario that don't involve JC or otherwise canceling something:

Mario's Aerial Cape Extension
Mario's Up-B to wall jump
Mario's SH bair waveland (AT? eh, tight timing and looks sexy)

I asked this earlier, but no one responded. How does Mario's wall kick after up+b work? Does he still go into free fall after the wall kick or what?

Will it be like this? Y/N:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeJ42ROhsAI

 

[Dan_X]

Yes, RAR WDing works.

Wobbling won't work unless it is put in intentionally. It won't be. The fact that it was soft or hard banned pretty much everywhere indicates this. ICs already have huge grab combos, some approaching infinites.

Rofl, yeah I was just kidding anyways. Obviously wobbling wouldn't be intentionally added. ;P

anyword on a 64 styled Kirby??

 

[shanus]

I asked this earlier, but no one responded. How does Mario's wall kick after up+b work? Does he still go into free fall after the wall kick or what?

Will it be like this? Y/N:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KeJ42ROhsAI

Currently, he goes into standard fall and can do anything out of it (Including upB again, lol, but that will be fixed to disable upB after doing it). We don't require him to be riding up the wall the *entire* move like he did in melee, so its dramatically easier to pull off. Thats why we need to disable upB again.

 

[Jam Stunna]

About Ike:
What problems are you guys referring to with him in P:M? I can imagine him being utterly destroyed by top tiers, but I'm not sure that can be rectified without radically changing his design.

 

[Rikana]

I think what we do with charizard (or any of the PT pokemon) largely depends on whether people want to see the pokemon like in brawl (just PT), brawl+ (either with PT or independent) or if they want to see them entirely independent. I doubt anyone wants to see it like in brawl, but if people elect for the last option, the pokemon would each be receiving a new downB, which the possibilities for would be quite nearly endless. If the brawl+ route was taken... I'm sure we could come up with something. A doc-esque upB cancel, perhaps?

I mentioned this many posts back. It was shot down because people said that they can't get new downB's. I guess you guys have a method? That would be awesome. I'd love individual pokemon and new downB's.

This would also eliminate future arguments of whether or not individual pokemons can have more fixes/buffs/nerfs because PT will be involved as well. So.. +10000 for individual pokemons and new downB's.

About Ike:
What problems are you guys referring to with him in P:M? I can imagine him being utterly destroyed by top tiers, but I'm not sure that can be rectified without radically changing his design.

Ike is already able to jump out of quickdraw when on ground. That itself is already game changing for Ike I believe. You have 4 options out of it. Let quickdraw hit, jump out of it, wavedash out of it, or JC grab (I'm seeing insane range for JC grab). I don't think he needs a better recovery option than his current Brawl+ one.

 

[Jam Stunna]

Yeah, I'm really liking the changes to QD.

 

[shanus]

Ike so far is a ton of fun. He plays extremely well, and its amazing what the mobility out of QD gives him now.

Edge canceling (both for aerials and special fall landlag) also has some nice utility. I haven't personally tested, but i imagine aerial QD could be a nice way to make for nifty platform cancels a la illusion canceling in melee, as well.


His JC grab from QD is insane.

 

[Dark Sonic]

How about just being able to jump out of quickdraw in general, rather than just when on the ground? Yes I know that Ike's recovery is supposed to be a weakness, but with melee top tiers in the mix...that's a VERY crippling weakness. Marth and Falco can just grab the ledge for invincibility, watch him swing and miss, then spike him before he can aether. Even worse, Fox can shine spike him out. And with attacks sending at lower angles in general (due to upped grav in general), he won't be recovering from as high as in brawl+.

Being able to jump out of his side B in the air would make his recovery go from
1. Jump, side B onto stage or die.

to

2. Side B, jump, up B

In addition, jumping out of side B would allow for little platform tricks like wavelanding out of it, and allow him to go further out to edgeguard (this part in particular will really help him. Hell even Marth would **** his pants if Ike could go off stage to fair him)

Just a thought.

 

[shanus]

How about just being able to jump out of quickdraw in general, rather than just when on the ground? Yes I know that Ike's recovery is supposed to be a weakness, but with melee top tiers in the mix...that's a VERY crippling weakness. Marth and Falco can just grab the ledge for invincibility, watch him swing and miss, then spike him before he can aether. Even worse, Fox can shine spike him out. And with attacks sending at lower angles in general (due to upped grav in general), he won't be recovering from as high as in brawl+.

Being able to jump out of his side B in the air would make his recovery go from
1. Jump, side B onto stage or die.

to

2. Side B, jump, up B

In addition, jumping out of side B would allow for little platform tricks like wavelanding out of it, and allow him to go further out to edgeguard (this part in particular will really help him. Hell even Marth would **** his pants if Ike could go off stage to fair him)

Just a thought.

We thought about it. Its not off the table yet, but we aren't sure he needs THAT big of a buff yet.

 

[Dark Sonic]

Yeah, it's a pretty big buff. I'm probably just worrying too much about Fox and Falco <_<. Any character who wouldn't move around REALLY WELL got destroyed by at least one of them (okay....slight exaggeration).

 

[leafgreen386]

I mentioned this many posts back. It was shot down because people said that they can't get new downB's. I guess you guys have a method? That would be awesome. I'd love individual pokemon and new downB's.

This would also eliminate future arguments of whether or not individual pokemons can have more fixes/buffs/nerfs because PT will be involved as well. So.. +10000 for individual pokemons and new downB's.

I didn't say we had a method. It was more along the lines of "if people want to see this, we will find a method." Nothing is impossible (look at what brawl hacking has done so far and tell me how many of those accomplishments were deemed "impossible"), and I wouldn't be surprised at all if we became able to give them true downBs in time.

 

[Dan_X]

Is Ganondorf going to play like this? His Uair is sexy. I'd jiz if that's how his Uair worked in P:M! ;D


ooh.. and Mewtwo should play like this...

 

[Rikana]

@Orca. Its Brawl's engine after all. They're trying their hardest to make it as close to Melee as possible so don't have your hopes too high up. It may differ from the Melee videos that you watch. I'm just glad this project even exists. I've wanted this for a long time.

-----

Back to the ATs for Charizard. Maybe we can cancel his glide with shield so he can do anything out of it. Speeding up his glide would be helpful. Or.. we can make his upB more like those that can attack out of it. At the peak of Charizard's upB he doesn't go into a freefall state but he can't jump again. There's not many ATs that Charizard can do with his current moveset.

 

[Dan_X]

@Orca. Its Brawl's engine after all. They're trying their hardest to make it as close to Melee as possible so don't have your hopes too high up. It may differ from the Melee videos that you watch. I'm just glad this project even exists. I've wanted this for a long time.

Oh, I know. I'm super happy they're doing what they're doing. I'll definitely play this over any other mod! ;D

 

[Jam Stunna]

Jump out of aerial QD would be sooo awesome but sooo broken lol