Project M Social Thread

[GuruKid]

Being one of the main developers behind PT:M, I can say that Squirtle, Ivysaur and Charizard are being developed with their solo versions in mind. The reasoning for this is to "normalize" the solo versions into regular characters so that people who only like 1 of the 3 pokes can play them normally.

Stamina is essentially removed. (I say essentially because it's not technically removed but rather increased to a much longer timer, just a little more than 4 minutes. It's pretty much the same though since there's a good chance you won't survive a single stock for 4 minutes in competitive P:M ). It was removed since Brawl+ days because the vbrawl Stamina mechanic was very poorly implemented; 2-minute timer with additional 1-second decrements for every move you execute. And it only affected knockback, which in certain situations paradoxically buffs Squirtle and Ivy into ridiculous combo machines.

I will say that the idea behind Stamina in encouraging switch strategies is plausible, but its implementation in vbrawl is just poorly done. Unfortunately we currently cannot change its attributes besides the timer, so it's best to just get rid of it.


Also just wanna also throw out there that the focus on wild pokemon by no means makes PT useless. Rather, PT by design can already be one of the best characters in the game.

Assuming the roster is as tightly balanced as possible:

- PT forces a neutral matchup, which is immensely useful in tournament play where the first match of a set is often double-blind pick and you're not sure who your opponent will use.
- With an in-game switch in pokemon comes an in-game switch in matchup mentality. Keeping your opponent on his toes with having to re-adjust to three different playstyles works in your favor.
- You can use the info you gain about your opponent (how he reacts differently to each pokemon, habits, etc) from the first match to decide your cp pogey the next match of the set should you lose.


Learning 3 characters to have the power of matchup-resistance... I'd definitely take that.

You obviously haven't seen charizard...I am so sad I can't post those videos.

<3 Charizard:M <3

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Thanks for that post Guru, better explained things :D

 

[Sterowent]

yes, appreciated much! now that's what i call collected.

 

[I R MarF]

Alright, I didn't really get a response earlier so I'll ask again...

Are the hurtboxes from melee being transferred to their respective brawl counterparts for PM?

 

[Supreme Dirt]

Thank god for buffer not being put in. Didn't actually know that there was any in Melee at all, interesting to know.

With regards to Zelda/Sheik, what's being done to Melee-ify switching between the two?

 

[OverLade]

Can we please make a version of Fox where shine automatically jump-cancels itself so I don't have to bother doing it?

Probably the best troll attempt in the last 10 pages. Where you at regular trolls?

 

[Revven]

Are the hurtboxes from melee being transferred to their respective brawl counterparts for PM?

What the hell would be the purpose in this? It doesn't make any sense at all and just seems like you're assuming the hurtbubbles are off because Brawl "messed up everything" (while this may be somewhat true, it isn't for this).

No, we're not, just size changes to the characters...

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Charizard is freaking god in this game

 

[Deleted member]

What the hell would be the purpose in this? It doesn't make any sense at all and just seems like you're assuming the hurtbubbles are off because Brawl "messed up everything" (while this may be somewhat true, it isn't for this).

No, we're not, just size changes to the characters...

Aren't you devs porting the exact sizes for grab boxes/hurt boxes/ hit boxes for the Melee top tier?

I was under the impression you were.

 

[shanus]

Aren't you devs porting the exact sizes for grab boxes/hurt boxes/ hit boxes for the Melee top tier?

I was under the impression you were.

hurtboxes =/= hitboxes

 

[Juushichi]

GuruKid just won the thread for a bit.

 

[Deleted member]

I'm not saying they're the same thing.

I'm just wondering whether or not the Melee top tier will be a 1:1 replica with their respective qualities or that they will be partial replicas.

Any change in any size of a hit box or hurt box can and will change how the match ups are played because Melee's spacing is so tight.

It makes such a difference whether Falco's dair whiffs the air in front of Marth compared to barely tapping Marth's shield. Where one scenario is shield pressure, the other could potentially be a grab for Marth resulting in a stock loss or loss of an entire match for Falco as an example.

 

[Sora-kun]

I'm not saying they're the same thing.

I'm just wondering whether or not the Melee top tier will be a 1:1 replica with their respective qualities or that they will be partial replicas.

Any change in any size of a hit box or hurt box can and will change how the match ups are played because Melee's spacing is so tight.

It makes such a difference whether Falco's dair whiffs the air in front of Marth compared to barely tapping Marth's shield. Where one scenario is shield pressure, the other could potentially be a grab for Marth resulting in a stock loss or loss of an entire match for Falco as an example.

If that were the case, you'd simply have to adjust your spacing accordingly? A good player would know their reach anyway so that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Supreme Dirt]

People seem to be forgetting a lot that P:M isn't Melee, it's what Brawl should have been.

 

[Deleted member]

If that were the case, you'd simply have to adjust your spacing accordingly? A good player would know their reach anyway so that wouldn't be an issue.

Thats fine for all the players who don't mind doing just that.

However, there are players that have been playing Melee for years fine tuning their spacing. I'd think some people would not want to relearn their characters for this game.

It makes sense from the perspective of changing crappy characters like Link and Pikachu, but alienating for players of the most popular characters in Melee, the top/high tier which garnishes just about all the attention for Melee.

This isn't Melee, but it'd be easier to sell this idea of playing the game to Melee players when the favorite characters don't have any differences at all and are seamless.

 

[Rikana]

This isn't Melee, but it'd be easier to sell this idea of playing the game to Melee players when the favorite characters don't have any differences at all and are seamless.

I think you answered your own question. If some Melee players are too ignorant to adjust - notice I said adjust and not relearn, but relearn does apply to those that have been changed quite a bit such as Link - then this isn't the game for them. It should be known from the start that even Melee characters won't get back their true gameplay. The devs will give the best they can offer.

 

[Sneak8288]

So I was playing with GuruKid the other day and noticed the removal of the buffer option. Excuse me if it's been discussed before (since obviously I haven't been around these parts in ages) but he told me it's because Melee had 0 buffer and that Project M should also have it to make it require the same amount of tech skill and that in tournaments the handicap option would be banned.

So my question is why? The game feels clunky and loose without buffer, at least for the character I play who I think requires at least 3-4 frames. Perhaps other characters don't but in a sense it's somewhat of a character based thing. Not all characters will need a buffer window, I know when I played with Falco I didn't need one but if I tried to stream anything with Ike it would always get interrupted by random moments of idle and it was pretty annoying to say the least. Mind you while I do think timing and precision IS definitely skill-based; in the case of Brawl it's a little weird because the engine is terribly slow compared to Melee so the chance of stopping short due to mistiming is greatly increased.

I dunno maybe I'm too used to Brawl or Ike is just too slow for a "meleefied" engine but it didn't feel all that great to control until I turned on the handicap option. Sorry if this has been brought up before by the way. It just seems like the option should at least be available for those characters/playerswho need it.

One other question - does the buffer apply to the l-cancel timing?

Your more than likely just used to the brawl timings... I never really played ike in normal brawl so when i play him in P:M its just like picking up a regular melee character for the 1st time. I didn't have the problem your talking about at all. Its just gonna take some getting used to is all.
And for anyone who is acting like silven was a scrub in melee fyi he played a VERY VERY technical samus and probably woulda scraped u

 

[Plairnkk]

vouch for silven in melee, he was mad good randomly but never went to sht

 

[ynnek123]

Your more than likely just used to the brawl timings... I never really played ike in normal brawl so when i play him in P:M its just like picking up a regular melee character for the 1st time. I didn't have the problem your talking about at all. Its just gonna take some getting used to is all.
And for anyone who is acting like silven was a scrub in melee fyi he played a VERY VERY technical samus and probably woulda scraped u

I hope you dont mean me cause that wasnt my intention at all xD

 

[I R MarF]

What the hell would be the purpose in this? It doesn't make any sense at all and just seems like you're assuming the hurtbubbles are off because Brawl "messed up everything" (while this may be somewhat true, it isn't for this).

No, we're not, just size changes to the characters...

No personal offense, but your behavior in this post is terrible. It really desmonstrates a lot of the P:M team's inability to express any form of professionalism. In fact, I would go as far to say that Shanus, Shadic (and a few others I can't remember) are the only ones that seem respectable. Honestly, if you can't answer someone without showing irritation or hostility, I suggest you don't even bother... because its really uncalled for.

First of all, when I watched Jcaesar's video, I noticed how much smaller Brawl Falco is than Melee Falco. Assuming that model size of the modded Melee falco is equal to the "real" falco model in SSBM, then it would naturally occur to someone who is ignorant (like myself) that the hurtboxes for Brawl Falco is smaller.

Now if the hurtboxes are smaller, that is essentially a buff for that character. Attacks that would have just barely made contact in Melee are now going to whiff, and if hitboxes from Melee (which were meant for a larger character model) are being given to a smaller character, their spacing is much more powerful.

Now I understand that this isn't Melee 2 and not everything is going to be perfect, it was just a concern of mine and I hope you understand.

 

[Sneak8288]

No personal offense, but your behavior in this post is terrible. It really desmonstrates a lot of the P:M team's inability to express any form of professionalism. In fact, I would go as far to say that Shanus, Shadic (and a few others I can't remember) are the only ones that seem respectable. Honestly, if you can't answer someone without showing irritation or hostility, I suggest you don't even bother... because its really uncalled for.

First of all, when I watched Jcaesar's video, I noticed how much smaller Brawl Falco is than Melee Falco. Assuming that model size of the modded Melee falco is equal to the "real" falco model in SSBM, then it would naturally occur to someone who is ignorant (like myself) that the hurtboxes for Brawl Falco is smaller.

Now if the hurtboxes are smaller, that is essentially a buff for that character. Attacks that would have just barely made contact in Melee are now going to whiff, and if hitboxes from Melee (which were meant for a larger character model) are being given to a smaller character, their spacing is much more powerful.

Now I understand that this isn't Melee 2 and not everything is going to be perfect, it was just a concern of mine and I hope you understand.

I think some of the characters may seem to look smaller because of the camera at times

 

[UltiMario]

No personal offense, but your behavior in this post is terrible. It really desmonstrates a lot of the P:M team's inability to express any form of professionalism. In fact, I would go as far to say that Shanus, Shadic (and a few others I can't remember) are the only ones that seem respectable. Honestly, if you can't answer someone without showing irritation or hostility, I suggest you don't even bother... because its really uncalled for.

People have asked us the same questions 40 times now, and answering the same questions and telling people that we've fixed problems from month-old builds that everyone seems to have is getting annoying. To the point where we even have a freaking thread in the PMBR for copypasta we can use for all the **** brought up with L-Canceling and the like.

It'd be nice if people could stop complaining about the same thing over and over and over again even though it's clear we're not going to change it.

Maybe we should add even more things to the Q&A for things that have been brought up too many times.

 

[kaizo13]

....isn't the "Melee Falco" just a vertex texture hack of the "Brawl Falco" which means they have the same hurtboxes and same everything else? (unless they were tampered with)

>>?

 

[MonkUnit]

The melee falco vertex is only a texture and did not edit Falco's hurtbox. The hurtbox is located in FitFalco.pac

 

[kaizo13]

thank you....stop arguing without knowing what ur talking about

 

[genkaku]

IRMarf, characters are getting resized. That's been stated many many times. If an entire PMBR full of melee pros think that hurtboxes don't need edited at that point, then they won't be. If they do then they will.
Take the answers you receive in the context of the project and realize that they aren't total idiots.

Also, try to make at least one post without the words "needs a" followed by "buff," or "nerf." It'll probably work better for you.

 

[I R MarF]

I think some of the characters may seem to look smaller because of the camera at times

Yeah, thats a possibility.

People have asked us the same questions 40 times now, and answering the same questions and telling people that we've fixed problems from month-old builds that everyone seems to have is getting annoying. To the point where we even have a freaking thread in the PMBR for copypasta we can use for all the **** brought up with L-Canceling and the like.

It'd be nice if people could stop complaining about the same thing over and over and over again even though it's clear we're not going to change it.

Maybe we should add even more things to the Q&A for things that have been brought up too many times.

I could see how the ALR vs. L cancelling got old, but tbh I have never seen a question regarding hurtboxes and it has been a while since the last model size question.

Also, Falco400 beginning his response with a "what the hell" statement is typical of someone who is surprised or confused; most likely meaning that the concept was new to him.

And like you are saying, preventing the whole "repeated question" issue is well within the P:M team's power by updating the Q & A. What needs to be realized is other posters will back up the P:M team should someone ask a question that is already in the FAQ... so no one in the P:M team has any right to act like a jerk unless someone blatantly trolls or ditches on P:M for no reason.

Anyway, I appreciate you trying to clarify this situation... but I am not sure if it applies here.

IRMarf, characters are getting resized. That's been stated many many times. If an entire PMBR full of melee pros think that hurtboxes don't need edited at that point, then they won't be. If they do then they will.
Take the answers you receive in the context of the project and realize that they aren't total idiots.

Also, try to make at least one post without the words "needs a" followed by "buff," or "nerf." It'll probably work better for you.

I know characters are going to be resized, and I was under the impression that it was done a while ago. It was the recent video with the Melee Falco and Brawl Falco that raised my concern about the hurtboxes being smaller. Just because they look similar doesn't mean the hurtboxes will be the same and it could inadvertantly make a character better/worse.

Please recognize that in my eyes, they are separate issues... and it is a reasonable concern.

Also, I apologize if my posts somehow annoy you... but your nitpicks are in vain. I am probably not going to post unless I feel I have something worth saying. Giving suggestions for some characters that, I believe, needs a buff in a certain area happens to fall under that category, and the only character I ever really suggested a nerf for was Jigglypuff. And if I remember correctly, you are a jiggs main. So I am arriving at the conclusion you are over exaggerating my posts because of that.

 

[Revven]

No personal offense, but your behavior in this post is terrible. It really desmonstrates a lot of the P:M team's inability to express any form of professionalism. In fact, I would go as far to say that Shanus, Shadic (and a few others I can't remember) are the only ones that seem respectable. Honestly, if you can't answer someone without showing irritation or hostility, I suggest you don't even bother... because its really uncalled for.

First of all, when I watched Jcaesar's video, I noticed how much smaller Brawl Falco is than Melee Falco. Assuming that model size of the modded Melee falco is equal to the "real" falco model in SSBM, then it would naturally occur to someone who is ignorant (like myself) that the hurtboxes for Brawl Falco is smaller.

Now if the hurtboxes are smaller, that is essentially a buff for that character. Attacks that would have just barely made contact in Melee are now going to whiff, and if hitboxes from Melee (which were meant for a larger character model) are being given to a smaller character, their spacing is much more powerful.

Now I understand that this isn't Melee 2 and not everything is going to be perfect, it was just a concern of mine and I hope you understand.

I only get so irritated because of two very obvious reasons.

1. Reposting the question when it was clearly not answered because either we do not have a definitive answer for you or because it was already answered previously. Reposting the question doesn't help get it answered, it only furthers annoy some people. If it's not answered either take it as "we cannot answer that right now" or assume it was ignored for other reasons.

2. Having to answer a question about hurtbubbles, which we don't even know if they are correct or not. We can't "see" them, I'm pretty sure it's pretty obvious by the threads floating around on this forum that there is no way to see hurtbubbles yet therefore there's no evidence to support the need to edit them straight away.

Size changes relates to hurtbubble modification in some fashion but it's not specifically editing them. The character sizes are not exact and I have specifically (as well as everyone else in the past) stated that the character sizes are not exact and the current sizes are very temporary until we can get to that point where we have the time to do something as tedious as modifying their sizes to match Melee.

Also updating the Q&A doesn't help much because there's more than a thousand questions you could come up with.

 

[shanus]

It's true, I don't really get why people get so irritated so fast. Maybe its over my good looks?


Regardless, I've told it to the PM team before and I think I'll reiterate it here, if you can't post respectfully and well-mannered, then simply ignore this thread. Short-tempered responses add nothing to the conversation except a bad taste in your mouth.


So here is a nice conversation for the public:

Discuss item grabbing. item grabbing during aerials, air dodges, button inputs, etc.


1,2,3, go!

 

[MonkUnit]

We shouldn't be able to grab items at all.

Seriously though, I think you should not be able to AD to grab an item, I think it should be catching only with an aerial.

 

[kaizo13]

i vote for Melee styled item grabbing....i never liked being able to catch something while attacking at the same time. It also causes alot of accidental catches and can mess up your next aerial/attack

+1 for Z-button (a.k.a purple button of love)


EDIT: and yeah...definitely not during an airdodge

 

[I R MarF]

I only get so irritated because of two very obvious reasons...

In that case, I apologize for being ignorant to Brawl/Melee hacking. I was not aware that hurtboxes cannot be seen, so I can see how that came off as a dumb question.

It's true, I don't really get why people get so irritated so fast. Maybe its over my good looks?


Regardless, I've told it to the PM team before and I think I'll reiterate it here, if you can't post respectfully and well-mannered, then simply ignore this thread. Short-tempered responses add nothing to the conversation except a bad taste in your mouth.


So here is a nice conversation for the public:

Discuss item grabbing. item grabbing during aerials, air dodges, button inputs, etc.


1,2,3, go!

I think Melee style grabbing would be the best, but I don't think Brawl grabbing should be completely dropped.

For instance, Diddy gets the most mileage out of his bananas thanks to Brawl's grabbing. If there was a way he could still be able to grab with aerials, or make the ability to grab during aerials/dasha an AT of some kind that would be great.

 

[stingers]

melee style grabbing definitely

this whole airdodge cancelled item throw shiz is ******** lol

diddy goes like 3/4ths of bf, we were playing around with it last night. its hilarious...but not really serious

 

[Grim Tuesday]

Leave in the item infinites from Brawl, just for the lolz.

 

[Krautrock]

I'm for Melee style, except that Diddy should still be able to pick up bananas during dash attack.

 

[stingers]

I'm for Melee style, except that Diddy should still be able to pick up bananas during dash attack.

they actually removed the ability to pick up items from dash attack, from all characters. you can pick it up with wavedashes now though. idk i dont really like it personally.

 

[shanus]

I currently have an untested code that requires pressing Z (instead of a) during the start-up of an aerial to pick up an item (using the same frame window during aerial start-up). It's actually really easy to remove item pickups at all during aerials, but it'd be nice to get public opinins on items in general.

Air Dodges - unsure on mechanics, I feel like the picking an item up with WD'ing is a nice way to support slightly more encourages use of items as compared to melee

AGT Item throws - Looking into adjusting these (or we could remove them altogether, but I think they could really add a lot of depth if we adjusted the momentum gains)

Dash Attack - We are considering making it a Diddy Only AT to dash attack item pick up when diddy's hands are on the ground during his DA.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

IMO, Grabs during aerials and dash attacks should be taken out.

Air dodge item grabbing should have smaller time window to do so correctly.

I'm also here to confirm that the Maximum amount of stages that can fit is 39 per page.

 

[Fatality1337Falcon]

I know this is unrelated, but I want to post a thread and the post button does not come up, the FAQ says I might need permission from a moderator to post my own threads. Can someone please do that for me? trying to start a smash-clan.

 

[I R MarF]

I like your approach on all possible levels of item grabbing, Shanus. I especially like the little detail with Diddy only being able to grab with his hands during dasha. It'd also be cool if you could think of a good way to do something like that with his nair too.

However, I have a question about WD grabs, can players pick up Diddy's bananas with wavedashing? Because if that is the case, bananas are a lot less useful for controlling the stage. Matchups's vs. Diddy will consist of just WDing for moving around.