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Project M Social Thread

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Stevo

Stevo

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I dont even understand what is going on right now,
but Dant is involved, so Im hyped.

Oh and that Project:M is coming vid was good. (the Shadow costume in the vid looked really sleek)
 
abcool

abcool

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Are you guys still looking to add a new AT in P:M that wasn't in melee? I got an okish idea.

Remember when you guys were making brawl+ and trying to fix teching and discovered a way to techjump off the ground by holding up instead of left, right and down. I was wondering if you wanna give that tech jump ability to heavies, so they won't get overbuffed and make tech chasing them alot harder. I know bowser at this point may not need the extra option, but i think it may help those other heavies with better escapes and an extra small option. That way you won't have to speed up their teching window.

If they tech off the ground you can count that as there second jump, making it a risky move aswell.

If you don't like the idea...scrape it and continue your work. Don't wanna argue over a 5cent idea.
 
G

genkaku

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Techs are pretty solid in melee and an integral part of the metagame. Mixing it up by adding another option is a bad idea. Remember that techs are punishable because you got hit in the first place. There's no reason to make it harder to take advantage of that.

Plus, I like resting people out of a techchase. A lot.
 
abcool

abcool

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genkaku said:
Techs are pretty solid in melee and an integral part of the metagame. Mixing it up by adding another option is a bad idea. Remember that techs are punishable because you got hit in the first place. There's no reason to make it harder to take advantage of that.

Plus, I like resting people out of a techchase. A lot.
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I mean for heavies. Like ddd and DK. I would hate fox to have it. But i said let it be punished, if u get hit, while in the jumping animation. (Heavies have a slow jump, so i would suspect they have to cancel it with an aerial attack) Believe me i got enough melee vids to prove how much i love that game lol
 
R

Rikana

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As much as I really liked that techjump off the ground from the Brawl+ era, which happened by accident, I'd prefer sticking to Melee's tech game. The techjumps were quite OP. You can attack instantly out of it. Unless they add it in as a universal AT but tone it down by possibly making it as short as a short hop and can't attack until X amount of frames in, that would be better. But, by doing this I have a feeling it's going to interfere with the ledgetechs.
 
Plum

Plum

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Fly_Amanita said:
This doesn't really make sense. For one thing, I disagree with labeling a skill as "true" or "artificial." I'm not sure what an "artificial skill" would be, but it sounds like a contradiction, and the "true" label seems totally superfluous. Secondly, there isn't any one universal skill we're looking at it, but rather a variety of different skills. I think what you mean to say is something more like "Do you want the game to test the skills its players value?" or "Do you want the game to test skills which are 'interesting'?" I'd rather not put words in your mouth, so I'll let you clarify whatever point you're trying to make.
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I guess it would be best to put definitions on what I consider "true" and "artificial" skill.
For one thing, I am solely referring to technical skill. Yes, Smash is a measure of a huge variety of abilities of which tech skill is only one, but the discussion of buffering more or less revolves around tech skill so I will focus this completely on that.

"True" skill as I see it is your actual ability to perform fast movements with your fingers. The measure of your muscle memory and ability to execute it on command while under real pressure. If that's the label I am putting on it, then I should also say that every player has true skill, but each player has a different amount of it.

"Artificial" skill in this case is something that augments your "true" skill. Buffering can expand the frame window for executing certain commands by up to 10 frames. While it does have drawbacks (accidental buffering) the ease of performing what used to be frame perfect controls will outweigh the downside for those who choose to use buffering. Maybe you will accidentally Nair yourself off the stage and die, but you will also be able to use your character to their full potential because you no longer require the same dexterity needed at 0 buffer.

Technically demanding commands like waveshining become noticeably easier when you have even a frame or two of buffer. You can do things like pillaring with Falco without needing to time the jump out of shine because of hitlag; just JC the shine like you would with no hitlag and buffering will hold that input until hitlag is done and input it for you without any different timing. It's things like that, that make the game easier to play in terms of what your fingers are actually doing.

If that makes what I'm trying to say more clear :awesome:
 
OverLade

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I_Am_Plum said:
I guess it would be best to put definitions on what I consider "true" and "artificial" skill.
For one thing, I am solely referring to technical skill. Yes, Smash is a measure of a huge variety of abilities of which tech skill is only one, but the discussion of buffering more or less revolves around tech skill so I will focus this completely on that.

"True" skill as I see it is your actual ability to perform fast movements with your fingers. The measure of your muscle memory and ability to execute it on command while under real pressure. If that's the label I am putting on it, then I should also say that every player has true skill, but each player has a different amount of it.

"Artificial" skill in this case is something that augments your "true" skill. Buffering can expand the frame window for executing certain commands by up to 10 frames. While it does have drawbacks (accidental buffering) the ease of performing what used to be frame perfect controls will outweigh the downside for those who choose to use buffering. Maybe you will accidentally Nair yourself off the stage and die, but you will also be able to use your character to their full potential because you no longer require the same dexterity needed at 0 buffer.

Technically demanding commands like waveshining become noticeably easier when you have even a frame or two of buffer. You can do things like pillaring with Falco without needing to time the jump out of shine because of hitlag; just JC the shine like you would with no hitlag and buffering will hold that input until hitlag is done and input it for you without any different timing. It's things like that, that make the game easier to play in terms of what your fingers are actually doing.

If that makes what I'm trying to say more clear :awesome:
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I agree with this completely. This technical ability as well as reaction to changes in movement and DI is what is important in all fighting games, no just smash. It's what melee was about, and even what brawl is about to an extent. Being able to react quickly and follow your opponents DI, as well as predict/react to airdodges, tech chases, is the bread and butter of high level play.

This is why it's important that characters don't break this need for technical ability, reads and precision (Puff in Melee, a handful of characters in brawl).
 
GHNeko

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Plum's definitions of True Skill is more commonly known as Technical skill and not True skill. V:

While his definition of artifificial skill is more commonly known as a handicap.

The game is desired to have a high technical skill barrier and buffer pretty much impedes on that high barrier that has been set as a standard for the game by lowering the technical skill barrier to make players climb over it easier.

And while that isn't naturally a good or bad thing, it can be bad based on the situation, and in this case, it is generally considered one because it goes against the principles and desires that are being set for this game. V:

</goesbackto????project>
 
Ulevo

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I would also like to note that one of the major selling points to most successful video games in any genre is for them to be challenging, either via mental stimulation or otherwise. Video games serve to provide not only passive entertainment (this only came later as technology advanced), but an artificial obstacle to overcome that gives the player satisfaction and self fulfillment while playing. It is this system of self reward that attracts gamers to video games. To deviate from this for the sake of alleviating the technical skill barrier from player to player is what spawned most of the horrendous problems Brawl suffered from during its development in the first place.

As pointed out by RedHalberd, technical skill has always been one of the most important aspects to any fighting game. That is just what the fighting game genre entails. I'd more than gladly advocate the use of buffer in the options menu to help introduce new players to Project: M, much in the same way BlazBlue incorporated their "easy specials" for the same reason. But I do not feel it has any place in competitive, tournament play, because that deviates from what the fighting game genre is really about.

If you want mental stimulation without the need to bother with technical skill, there is always chess and other options.
 
OverLade

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I'd argue that something that a lot of smashers aren't aware of is that naturally talent for smash (reaction speed etc) makes one more apt at technical skill, while under pressure during matches.

For example, while a lot of players are really technical, some can only perform technical things in training mode as opposed to during an actual match, while players like M2K and Shiz are super technical consistently. The more skilled a player is the more affinity they have for technical application, hence why the best players are usually really technical, and pull off things like Fox's short hop that a lot of other players find difficult to do consistently in the heat of a match.
 
abcool

abcool

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Rikana said:
As much as I really liked that techjump off the ground from the Brawl+ era, which happened by accident, I'd prefer sticking to Melee's tech game. The techjumps were quite OP. You can attack instantly out of it. Unless they add it in as a universal AT but tone it down by possibly making it as short as a short hop and can't attack until X amount of frames in, that would be better. But, by doing this I have a feeling it's going to interfere with the ledgetechs.
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Yeah, you're right. I just was reminding them of that one mistake that could have lead to a pinch of something different smash does. Like how melee added AD and n64 didn't have it. I figured a jump up tech would be different, but still have the smash feel. I think your idea for it is alot better than mine, and would be better on heavies and certain character that get techchase **** because of a slow tech lol.

I'm gonna scrape it. Thanks for the feedback. Continue on Project Madness!!!!
 
DippnDots

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RedHalberd said:
I'd argue that something that a lot of smashers aren't aware of is that naturally talent for smash (reaction speed etc) makes one more apt at technical skill, while under pressure during matches.

For example, while a lot of players are really technical, some can only perform technical things in training mode as opposed to during an actual match, while players like M2K and Shiz are super technical consistently. The more skilled a player is the more affinity they have for technical application, hence why the best players are usually really technical, and pull off things like Fox's short hop that a lot of other players find difficult to do consistently in the heat of a match.
Click to expand...

I wouldnt say the best players are always super technical, they've just refined their tech skill to a point of consistency and efficiency. Surely, the best players have good tech skill, but there are plenty of "more technical" players who don't place as high. Fox's short hop was kind of a bad example to use, maybe turn around short hop double laser while keeping precise aiming
 
Plum

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xavier rythos said:
plum's definitions of true skill is more commonly known as technical skill and not true skill. Derpderpderpderpi'mnekoderpderpderp

while his definition of artifificial skill is more commonly known as a handicap. Derp.

The game is desired to have a high technical skill barrier and buffer pretty much impedes on that high barrier that has been set as a standard for the game by lowering the technical skill barrier to make players climb over it easier.

And while that isn't naturally a good or bad thing, it can be bad based on the situation, and in this case, it is generally considered one because it goes against the principles and desires that are being set for this game. V:

</goesbacktoprojecttheneko'sarenowprojectmrobdashingdiamondstuddedwindboxes>
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:V

10Nekos
 
Fly_Amanita

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kaizo13 said:
EDIT: unfortunately for Chu, IC's still need plenty of work
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ICs are actually really solid in their current form. I don't think Chu plays that match-up well in many regards; he looks for approaches in the wrong places and he also doesn't take advantage of a lot of the strengths that ICs currently have, such as a very good blizzard, much better squall hammer, and Brawl CGs (although I don't blame him for not knowing the timing, which is a little weird right now).
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

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mc-killa said:
^no stamina is gonna happen.

well, it already did.
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Well yeah, but is there any chance of having it lowered at all so the Pokemon don't wear out within a minute, and then you get beaten around for a few minutes trying to find a chance to switch out?

Either Pokemon Switch needs to be buffed, or the Stamina needs to have less of an effect.
 
curry9186

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Are you guys working on the fixing the self-destruct system. I know it's not a huge priority, but i find it annoying if I fall off the stage myself and the other player still gets a point for it.
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

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Who the hell plays time matches? xD

I'm not sure how it works in Brawl, but in Melee there is a registry which is filled with the attacking player's name when they get hit, then the registry resets if they touch ground or get hit by someone else.

Assuming it is the same in Brawl, it'd be a matter of making it so the registry cleared when players touch the ground like in Melee.
 
curry9186

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No it does that in all the game modes. I only play stocks and while the points aren't really important there I notice that you almost never get a self destruct in Brawl. Even if you run off the stage without ever interacting with the other player.
 
Grim Tuesday

Grim Tuesday

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@curry
Yes you do.

I just explained how it works, if you get hit it records the player who hit you. Die while this player's name is recorded and it counts as their kill (it's your name by default i.e. self destruct). In Melee, landing on ground/ledge/etc... restored the registry to the default.

That doesn't happen in Brawl though, so if you get hit once, and then run off the ledge 10 seconds later, it counts as their kill.
 
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