Project M Social Thread

[Dark Sonic]

Honestly, I see execution speed as a valuable skill worth rewarding, which is why I'm personally against buffer. Practicing something as simple as "doing things faster" should be rewarded imo.

But that just goes into the subjective issue of "how important is technical skill?" It'll obviously be up to tournament hosts to decide whether or not to ban buffer, we're just discouraging it's use because....melee tournament hosts will likely ban it.

 

[OverLade]

Buffer will make combos too easy, and therefore polarize matchups and unbalance the game because a lot of things that normally didn't happen every single stock will (shine off the ledge etc).

The execution barrier literally balances the game because even the absolute best players still make technical mistakes or don't execute things perfectly. This is absolutely essential to making the game balanced.

 

[Ulevo]

Buffer will make combos too easy, and therefore polarize matchups and unbalance the game because a lot of things that normally didn't happen every single stock will (shine off the ledge etc).

The execution barrier literally balances the game because even the absolute best players still make technical mistakes or don't execute things perfectly. This is absolutely essential to making the game balanced.

Or you could, you know. Actually balance the game.

I'm not promoting the inclusion or rejection of buffer, but arguing it should be excluded for character balance purposes when we're essentially redesigning the game from the ground up is a very silly reason.

 

[OverLade]

Or you could, you know. Actually balance the game.

I'm not promoting the inclusion or rejection of buffer, but arguing it should be excluded for character balance purposes when we're essentially redesigning the game from the ground up is a very silly reason.

Lol melee isn't actually balanced. The technical barrier only makes it appear that way. So if you want us to add buffering then balance the game we're going to have to go back and modify all the melee top tiers...

So yeah not happening.

 

[kaizo13]

Or you could, you know. Actually balance the game.

it's impossible to completely balance a game. Some characters will always be better than others....that is why making room for error is so important. It helps balance the game.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Hmmm..... It's going to take a while to get used to, but OK.

Buffering would make a lot of Fox's Shine Hijinks easier to do, which would make wall infinites easy.

 

[ManEg]

^ Indeed. I dont understand how the pros consistenly execute the drill waveshine combo. I've been practicing it and I chain two only and cant get higher than that, the timing is to dificult to do that fast.

I guess buffer would solve that and then everybody would be pulling those and it wouldn't be impressive anymore.

 

[Ulevo]

Lol melee isn't actually balanced. The technical barrier only makes it appear that way. So if you want us to add buffering then balance the game we're going to have to go back and modify all the melee top tiers...

So yeah not happening.

If the technical depth of the game provides a barrier to the true balance of the game, then how exactly do you confirm that the balance difference without the technical barrier present is even a problem to begin with when you've never experienced Melee without that barrier?

You can't give opinions over observations you haven't had a chance to experience. I mean, for arguments sake you could lecture all you like about how Fox is potentially perfect when utilized without human error, but that would be mere theory because you can't observe that by comparison to the other characters because the technical barrier has always been present, and humans will always make mistakes.

Again, I'm not promoting to include buffer or reject it for these reasons, or to reinvent the high tier wheel, so to speak. I believe what Project: M is doing by principle is excellent. I just don't feel your statement held much merit.

 

[Deleted member]

it's impossible to completely balance a game. Some characters will always be better than others....that is why making room for error is so important. It helps balance the game.

This.

People act like making tech skill easier to perform will make a better game.

What some may not realize is tech skill is the fastest and easiest part of Melee to learn.

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A5-2mG3DTrM

 

[OverLade]

If the technical depth of the game provides a barrier to the true balance of the game, then how exactly do you confirm that the balance difference without the technical barrier present is even a problem to begin with when you've never experienced Melee without that barrier?

You can't give opinions over observations you haven't had a chance to experience. I mean, for arguments sake you could lecture all you like about how Fox is potentially perfect when utilized without human error, but that would be mere theory because you can't observe that by comparison to the other characters because the technical barrier has always been present, and humans will always make mistakes.

Again, I'm not promoting to include buffer or reject it for these reasons, or to reinvent the high tier wheel, so to speak. I believe what Project: M is doing by principle is excellent. I just don't feel your statement held much merit.

I'm right. Deal with it.

 

[kaizo13]

@ChRed2Akrisp

i just got so ****en hyped

thank you

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

^ Indeed. I dont understand how the pros consistenly execute the drill waveshine combo. I've been practicing it and I chain two only and cant get higher than that, the timing is to dificult to do that fast.

I guess buffer would solve that and then everybody would be pulling those and it wouldn't be impressive anymore.

You mean across a stage? No one does it often because dair is really easy to SDI out of. Same reason when people wall infinite they generally don't drill. So even if you could buffer it or whatever it still wouldn't be a good option.

In fact alot of fox's technical stuff isn't a good option, or is highly unnecessary.

 

[ManEg]

^ Now that you mention it, I don't see the pros doing it that often or chain more than two...guess I got carried away by how they make it seem easy vs how it actually is, especially in tournaments.

 

[ynnek123]

lol i think people should get infractions for whining about buffer/tech skill in general as well cause its so annoying to read -_-

 

[ChRed2AKrisp]

Actually on the note of buffering, as far as I'm aware the only instances of it in melee were c-stick buffers out of shields, which is being worked (great for getting out of shield pressure), and buffered getup actions, which suck balls. I have no idea how many times i've gotten hit to the groundd while hitting a, and then being forced to do a get up attack. On the other hand, it does make getting out of jab resets alot easier. I'm not sure if brawl has this second type of buffering, but I do know that no did anything but stand up when I jabbed last weekend. If this can't be buffered, I'm not sure if that's a good thing or not. Being able to control my missed techs is very nice, but jab resets could be a bit crazy if you can't do anything other than stand up. When landing detection makes techning more difficult on occasion ( less time to react to a hit before you land) jab resets are a bit ridiculous.

 

[curry9186]

^ Indeed. I dont understand how the pros consistenly execute the drill waveshine combo. I've been practicing it and I chain two only and cant get higher than that, the timing is to dificult to do that fast.

I guess buffer would solve that and then everybody would be pulling those and it wouldn't be impressive anymore.

If buffer makes moves like that easy then I hope they don't include it. I just got a copy of melee a couple days ago and started practicing the ATs and I have to say that waveshining is freaking hard. I managed to do it twice consecutively and felt very proud of myself.

The precise timing and execution is what makes good players good at this game. It's a bit like school. If you take the time practice, you'll grasp the subject better and thus perform better, but nobody's going to make things easier for you if you can't keep up.

 

[Deleted member]

The precise timing and execution is what makes good players good at this game.

Mental skill is what makes people good at Melee.

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Even though tech skill barriers suck, I'd prefer not to have Brawl-esque buffering, since it does have a few really obnoxious side effects. Namely, if something unexpected happens and you input a command just slightly afterwards, you may accidentally do something ridiculous that wouldn't have happened otherwise. Even if buffering makes reaching a certain level of precision easier, it comes at a price that I don't think is worth paying.

 

[Plum]

Consider that any game at its core is a test of skill.
Do you want the game to be a test of true skill vs artificial skill?
A player with frame perfect skill deserves to beat somebody who can't perform actions that are necessary at a high level without artificial skill.

 

[ynnek123]

Consider that any game at its core is a test of skill.
Do you want the game to be a test of true skill vs artificial skill?
A player with frame perfect skill deserves to beat somebody who can't perform actions that are necessary at a high level without artificial skill.

I guess that's hard to accept for people who played brawl first, cause if you are used to needing no skill at all, you wouldn't want to actually have to DO something to get better right? But then again they aren't the main audience so that doesn't matter

 

[GP&B]

Melee had specific buffers which are actually something that I believe the team wanted to recreate if they could (well, maybe except for the getup attack one if that's particularly detrimental).

 

[Fly_Amanita]

Do you want the game to be a test of true skill vs artificial skill?

This doesn't really make sense. For one thing, I disagree with labeling a skill as "true" or "artificial." I'm not sure what an "artificial skill" would be, but it sounds like a contradiction, and the "true" label seems totally superfluous. Secondly, there isn't any one universal skill we're looking at it, but rather a variety of different skills. I think what you mean to say is something more like "Do you want the game to test the skills its players value?" or "Do you want the game to test skills which are 'interesting'?" I'd rather not put words in your mouth, so I'll let you clarify whatever point you're trying to make.

 

[Xyless]

Let's not forget that having buffering in a game with Melee physics can be borderline hazardous with the Melee airdodge.

 

[Dantarion]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah PAT0 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH extra costumes BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

 

[ynnek123]

Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah Blah PAT0 BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH extra costumes BLAH BLAH BLAH BLAH

YESZ

Spoiler

blah blah blah blah landing detection blah blah blah

 

[kaizo13]

extra costumes?! O_O

 

[Sterowent]

oh god, been waiting for that for a long time! awesome.

bring on the cameo costumes! Dr. Mario, blue party hat, a black/white yoshi, a second daisy or, hell, maybe a rosalina! mewtwo with battle armor (if that's ever done full on justice), shadow (if you like that sort of thing), broken mask MK/falcon (?), a raphael squirtle that doesn't mess up teams, the black tunic link + dark link combo, G&W...well, maybe not G&W.

this is the alternate costume breakthrough that will pierce my dreams!

 

[kaizo13]

lol easy there Stero

...it could be nothing xD

 

[Dantarion]

Its theorycraft.
I am gonna write some python and see where it leads me tonight.
Bero should be done by the time I can actually try this.

 

[Xyless]

Priority on Pikachu for the love of GOD! The kid only has 4!

 

[ynnek123]

Priority on Pikachu for the love of GOD! The kid only has 4!

I vote for a raichu costume!

 

[ds22]

First things first, get the additional Roy costumes to work (right now, Roy only has 1 costume).

 

[Dantarion]

ds22, we could have that in already, I just don't have the .pac's for them.

 

[ds22]

ds22, we could have that in already, I just don't have the .pac's for them.

I could give you temporary recolors if you need them (uploaded into my incubator).

 

[Dantarion]

This is a job for....IRC and private forum!

 

[Sora-kun]

So.. if i'm understanding correctly you're trying to add new costumes. How many are you trying to give each character then? 8 maybe?(**** you wario)

10?

 

[I R MarF]

It would be cool if all of the melee vets had melee alt costumes

same with 64 vets lol

 

[Laijin]

It would be cool if all of the melee vets had melee alt costumes

same with 64 vets lol

but they already have their same costumes from melee....?

 

[SymphonicSage12]

but they already have their same costumes from melee....?

Um no they don't? The colorations, light intensity, bone shape, etc are all different....as far as I can tell, anyways