Project M Social Thread

[Kink-Link5]

I live in Waterloo, IA, but it was mostly a joke anyway.

Misty Lake being a real lake in MI is funny though.

 

[Rat]

jokes on the internet! What has this world come to?

 

[GP&B]

Next thing you know, they'll be using sarcasm. They have an incredible sense of humor.

 

[iLink]

So I'm testing out lucario's jab > sideb in 1/4 speed.

There is definitely a gap between jabjab > sideb which is the startup of sideb. So unlike some people were saying, it does not skip the startup. Going to test if characters have anything fast enough to escape it such as rolls/upb/spotdodge when my brother can give me a hand.

 

[PGH Carroll]

Because Ike

This guy knows his ****

 

[Revven]

Please do not tell me you can CC dsmash while holding a turnip now.

This is a bug, not intentional. Every character can do a c-stick Dsmash with an item in their hand iirc. It's a bug with one of our codes... one of the oldest codes, actually, I think.

Do not fret, it will probably get fixed at some point in time, so don't get used to it. >_>

 

[iLink]

Ok I still haven't physically tested this in game, but I've been going through some of the frame data.

Sideb grabs on frame 8. Canceling into sideb does not cancel the startup. Jab1 deals 3 damage while jab2 deals 2. Rolls become invincible on frame 4 and spot dodges on 2.

That would mean the jab needs to deal 4 frames of shield stun or greater for it to be inescapable with a roll, assuming the lucario cancels it immediately.

Am I forgetting something?

 

[metroid1117]

Hey guys, we're streaming now at this link! Let us know how the quality of the audio is!

@Rat: Sorry, maybe next time =/.

 

[9Kplus1]

Ike dittos make my pants tight and creamy

 

[leelue]

So I'm testing out lucario's jab > sideb in 1/4 speed.

There is definitely a gap between jabjab > sideb which is the startup of sideb. So unlike some people were saying, it does not skip the startup. Going to test if characters have anything fast enough to escape it such as rolls/upb/spotdodge when my brother can give me a hand.

This was exposed as misinformation a few pages ago

 

[iLink]

This was exposed as misinformation a few pages ago

I was mostly reiterating that I figured it out physically and was going to test everything else.

 

[Rubyiris]

me and okami have been playing a lot recently. ;o

 

[Dark Sonic]

Ok I still haven't physically tested this in game, but I've been going through some of the frame data.

Sideb grabs on frame 8. Canceling into sideb does not cancel the startup. Jab1 deals 3 damage while jab2 deals 2. Rolls become invincible on frame 4 and spot dodges on 2.

That would mean the jab needs to deal 4 frames of shield stun or greater for it to be inescapable with a roll, assuming the lucario cancels it immediately.

Am I forgetting something?

Shine does more damage than either jab 1 or jab 2 (4 damage). Shieldstun is based on damage. Shine->JC grab is escpabale, and I can't imagine jab->side B is that far off.

 

[iLink]

The issue with that is I'm not sure how I would check how much shield stun the attack produces in terms of frames which is why I wanted to test it in game also.

Some other info

Dash attack: Frame 7-9 deals 10 damage / Frame 10-17 deals 7 damage
Dtilt: Frame 10-15 deals 7 damage
Ftilt: Frame 11-16 deals 10 damage

Don't really feel like checking stuff like fsmash/dsmash because those are probably inescapable but if you are standing right next to him long enough to let him do that then you are really doing something wrong.

 

[MonkUnit]

You can use strong bad's excel spreadsheet thing to calculate shieldstun

 

[iLink]

Where would I find that?

 

[Alex 615]

Is there any chance that the PMBR could release a version of 2.1 with the frame advance code in it so we could test these kind of things precisely, instead of having to guess at things like shield stun?

 

[MonkUnit]

Use the spreadsheet + psa/brawlbox for most of that

 

[Ace55]

So to beat a spotdodge 100% you need 8 frames of shieldstun assuming you cancel into sideB on the first frame of hitlag.


*move hits shield with 8 frames of shieldstun*

frame 1: 1st frame of hitlag/ 1st frame of shieldstun
2: first frame of side-B/ 2nd frame of shieldstun
3: etc
4: etc
5: etc
6: etc
7: etc
8: shieldstun ends
9: side-B grabs/ first frame of spotdodge -> gotcha


http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=302275 <-- Strong Bad's spreadsheet for shieldstun.

14% damage gives 8 frames of shieldstun.

Jab1 (3%) gives 3 frames of shieldstun, jab2 (2%) gives 2 frames, jab3 (5%) gives 4 frames.

Fsmash, Dmash and Nair do 14% thus 8 frames of shieldstun.

 

[iLink]

Ok so I think I got this figured out

Formula for shield stun:
floor{[(4.45 + Damage) / 2.235]}

Jab1 = 3 frames of shield stun
Jab2 = 2 frames of shield stun
Jab3 = 4 frames of shield stun
DashAtk = 6 frames of shield stun / 5 frames of shield stun
Ftilt = 6 frames of shield stun
Dtilt = 5 frames of shield stun

Sideb activates on frame 8

Rolls are invincible on frame 4
Spot dodges are invincible on frame 2

EDIT: Ninja'd lol

Take into account that this is the shield stun value for UNSTALED attacks. They would be less if the attack has been used more.

Also note that any attack that does cause enough shield stun to make sideb unavoidable are also slower then just straight up grabbing with sideb.

===================================

So by looking off this, you can actually roll away from any of lucario's jabs before sideb can grab you.

Dash attack > sideb can be avoided by spotdodging; possibly by rolling depending on distance.

Ftilt/dtilt > sideb can both be avoided by spotdodging. Also note that they are both actually slower then just grabbing.

 

[Ace55]

Wait a sec, Lucario does cancels during hitlag doesn't he? In that case doesn't he also gain the frames of hitlag that his victim has to sit through? In my example I forgot about hitlag for the blocker. Don't have a clue about hitlag numbers for attacks though.

So it would be:

*move hits shield with 4 frames of shieldstun, 4 frames hitlag*

frame 1: 1st frame of hitlag for both
2: first frame of side-B/ 2nd frame of hitlag
3: etc
4: end of hitlag
5: first frame of shieldstun
6: etc
7: etc
8: etc
9: side-B grabs/ first frame of spotdodge -> gotcha

Not sure if I'm going about this right, I'm no Magus. Again I don't have a clue about Lucario's (or anybody's) hitlag.

 

[iLink]

From what I saw, all of lucario's hitlag modifiers on the mentioned attacks were x1

Still don't know if he can cancel during hitlag

 

[Life]

Question, can Lucario still land cancel the side-B startup like he could in vbrawl?

 

[iLink]

I'm pretty sure he still can. Haven't tested to see if I can do it with a cancel though. I usually just do an aerial > aurasphere cancel > grab.

 

[Life]

Then it looks like aerial into land-cancelled side-B might be fast enough to work on a shield (height depending), though it's only better than a regular grab if you're in the air already. I don't have the means to test it, but it's a thought.

Lucario would be really good if he had as much time as Melee Fox has had.

 

[iLink]

BREAKING NEWS

So I physically tested Lucario's sideb setups in training mode at 1/4 speed.

Any version of jab > sideb CAN be rolled and spot dodged. I tried to beat out the sideb with bowser's fortress and it traded hits but it still caused him to be grabbed.

Dash attack > sideb can be avoided by spotdodging unstaled and by rolling when staled.

ON TOP OF THAT, you can mash out of lucario's sideb before he throws you.

I hope you guys feel silly now having a Lucario test this instead of figuring out a way to beat him yourself.

 

[GHNeko]

DO IT FRAME BY FRAME FGT

SCRUBS.

****.

****KKK

iLink 4 top tier scrub

 

[9Kplus1]

yup

iLink sux

 

[GimR]

Smash @ Xanadu - JCaesar, ChillinDude, Chinesah, and GimR - http://www.twitch.tv/vgbootcamp

 

[metroid1117]

Hey guys, Mad and I are streaming again!

 

[Dark knuckles]

If Lucario gets nerfed at the next update, I'm going to be real angry

 

[Kink-Link5]

Makes more sense than Ike getting nerfed, but it would still be pretty ********.

 

[Theftz22]

I think luigi still needs more buffs.

 

[dettadeus]

I share JCaes' opinion of waiting to see the metagame evolve before throwing around ideas for nerfs and stuff.

The most recent demo hasn't even been out for 5 months yet.

 

[DrinkingFood]

In the spirit of making unnecessary suggestions, I say we buff the spacies.
I bet we could find more of a use for Falco's vBrawl fair than his current one. I'm also pretty sure side-b had less special landing lag, making a better movement option (say, for tech chasing).
And then we give fox the funky helicopter fair jump he had in vbrawl.

 

[leelue]

Would anybody here really be upset if the spacies got the sheik treatment?
Besides umbreon because apparently sheik is a joke now to him

Also
Does anybody think brawl yoshis is a tournament worthy stage? I can't.

 

[Life]

In the spirit of making unnecessary opinions

Fixed.

Brawl Yoshi's would be a good stage if 1. No Shy Guys and 2. Platforms weren't random. Could be done.

 

[GHNeko]

Pretty sure they were made un-random in 2.1

and even then, YI:B is still CP legal.

Also we should unban MK instead of buff spacies.

 

[MonkUnit]

afaik YI:B is still random in 2.0/2.1

 

[GHNeko]

god damn it i leave for months and you still havnt fixed it?

monk you...you...

DOUBLE 15.