Project M Social Thread

[MaxThunder]

low lfying thingies makes ness cry...

 

[9Kplus1]

snip about Ghosts and Flyguys

and what about the other 27 characters in Demo 2.1?

 

[metroid1117]

Nagace, actually I have a well known hatred for the melee yoshi stage. Get rid of randall and lower the floor so every character can sweetspot, and I'll be happy with it as a CP.

Different stages have different designs that favor or hinder certain characters. A relatively high KO floor (?) is something that can be used to an opponent's disadvantage - it limits their recovery options while also limiting possible edgeguarding options. Another notable example of stage design hindering certain recovery options is Melee Battlefield; because of the edges, you cannot hug against the stage like you can in Final Destination. This makes edgeguard much less forgiving on this stage and forces characters (especially spacies) to be very precise and cautious when recovering. Granted, BF doesn't have things that can possibly distract or interfere with players, but I'm just making the point that a high KO floor is not a valid reason for a stage to be excluded as a counter-pick.

ILink, I posted this
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=FJdNU4Gxt1Y#t=176s
On smashmods

M2k in a big tournament losing a stock prematurely to randall. It's not only on a timer but also has the elephant marker. It was even on screen well before he got stuck on it.
The fact of the matter is that these solutions all ask you to take your attention off of the game in a way inconsistent with the rest of the gameflow. M2k, One of the best players of all time, didn't see it. Despite the timer. Despite the elephant. Despite it being on screen.

He was busy playing.

I don't see why these two stages have these elements when we can just take them out.
They harm the game only slightly, but still more than they help.

In theory every player could memorize the timings for the two stages, get used to it instinctively, look up every time they have a spare moment to get their bearings and play around it. But that isn't a practical reality for many people, and not 100% of the time.

If such a thing was added to a stage, by the pmbr, we would be upset. It isn't much different from something like a random wall falling offstage from the sky on alternating sides of the stage every 20 seconds for someone to tech off of. The very thought of that is insanity. Fun perhaps, but objectively silly.
And they aren't different by much.

Randall is certainly something that can screw over people - I've lost countless stocks because of him. However, I'd be extremely sad to see him go because he's the only moving platform positioned exclusively off-stage that's on a set timer. Randall adds a dynamic to the stage that drastically favors players that can base their play around Randall. Wesballz is such a player, shown how he specifically saves his double jump and up+Bs to where Randall will appear. Small stage, short platforms that hang over the edge, small KO boundaries, sloped edges, and an off-stage platform that moves on a set timer - these are all nuances that greatly reward players who can keep track of these things. I agree that if we hadn't played on YS before I would choose the version without a moving platform, but now that it has become a defining feature of the stage (it even has it's own nickname), removing Randall would be a disservice to the players who've studied the stage and keep track of him.

As a side note, I dislike the randomly-spawning Shyguys but I just deal with it.

 

[iLink]

A good example is someone just getting ****ed by something random.

You said that the platform isnt an issue because its always visible but in your example, randall was clearly visible for a good amount of time.

I think YI:B could warrant some slight neutralization to avoid from just being random. Yoshis story just wouldnt be the same without that little dude. That and it would only serve to make that stage just an ever so slightly different BF.

 

[metroid1117]

A good example is someone just getting ****ed by something random.

You said that the platform isnt an issue because its always visible but in your example, randall was clearly visible for a good amount of time.

I think YI:B could warrant some slight neutralization to avoid from just being random. YI:M just wouldnt be the same without that little dude. That and it would only serve to make that stage just an ever so slightly different BF.

Small correction - the cloud known as Randall is on Yoshi's Story (hence the saying "Marth Story), not Yoshi's Island: Melee.

EDIT:

I've never witnessed match on Yoshi's Island:Brawl in which one player gets a significant advantage over the other due to the tilting platform and / or support ghosts. These traits of the stage, while annoying and unpredictable, don't pose a noticeable problem and can definitely be worked around during a match.

It's an extreme example, but I've seen Peach players (or any character with a good vertical stalling method, for that matter) float above the platform's spawn location in an attempt to be saved by it when the edge is inaccessible.

 

[iLink]

I always do that lol. Thanks.

 

[leelue]

Oh and Ness too
Forgot that there are characters less fortunate than sonic.

9k
My characters uniqueness makes the complaint less valid? You asked what it interferes with, and I answered.
DK can also stall with forward bs to wait for the ghost against characters who can't edgeguard him offstage.

Metroid
Nostalgia is something I simply never held. That's just me. Everything has to justify itself.
It's kindofa problem in my life, tbh. Makes me mad at a looooooooot of ****.
A recurring theme in my conversations is that there are lines that we edge towards and occasionally cross in regards to novelty. Randomness is one of those lines. Stage elements like moving platforms and blastzones are another. We can all agree that these things exist on a spectrum. Sse jungle is too big, FD isn't, etc.
We establish "rules" for the way the game "should" be played and approach these lines.

Something like GaW not being able to sweetspot on yoshis would cross that line. It would violate a basic part of the game. This is similar to the point kage was tryin to make about Lucario. On early inspection, it violated something he thought was untouchable.

My example with the falling walls would clearly be beyond the line of acceptability. It wouldn't add enough to the game to warrant the silliness of its own existence. That's what I'm saying about the yoshi stage elements. Yes we can use them, learn them, play around them, and deride players who didn't. But why should we have to? Do they add enough strategically to make up for the times both players were interrupted by one and someone gained a stock?

Also similar
Does brinstar cross a line in the way that ganon, spacies, and super floaty characters interact with the lava? Is that legit or too much? Same goes for that DK example in this post. Or peach in Metroids last post. There are so many borderline cool/bad things I'd struggle to list them all.
Is that ok or would the game be cleaner without it? Etc etc etc etc

I'd miss randall but only in the same way I miss an ex gf. We had fun, but damn if she didn't screw me over. bittersweet.



Time for sleep

Edit
The elephant could be more visible, pehaps. Or something. Something to make him next to impossible to lose. That, I could compromise to.

 

[Dingding123]

I'd choose without to be more of a standard stage because I obviously like to fight my opponents more than the stage.

And you counterpick brinstar

j/k i dun wanna die
you were boss at meleefc

 

[leelue]

Of course he was he's ****ing kage

 

[DMG]

I channeled the spirit of Kage last weekend... Fair never felt so good.

 

[Divinokage]

And you counterpick brinstar

j/k i dun wanna die
you were boss at meleefc

Oh ya, I do, it's my favorite stage and Mr. Darkrain banned FoD and YS.. and wanted to play with FC rules so I chose the stage where I felt I had the most advantage. lol.

 

[9Kplus1]

My characters uniqueness makes the complaint less valid?

Yes, actually. I'm sure that no sane person would argue that the stage "lips" on vBrawl FD are so annoying to characters with linear recovery paths; so annoying that, along with the advantages a fair amount of characters have there, it's enough to bump FD to CP / ban status. There's no problem with a stage if only a few characters are hindered or helped slightly by said stage's traits. Moreover, stalling for the ghost is an unreliable tactic and doesn't hinder gameplay much at all if successfully pulled off -- not to mention that the list of characters who can effctively stall for the ghost is small.

You asked what it interferes with, and I answered

Except that I didn't. Reiterating my previous post: I asked for a "clear explanation" of what Flyguys can pose a significant to, not an example of a scenario in which certain conditions MUST be met.

Why do you think that people ***** more about Sand Veil than Flame Body Volc or Jirachi spamming Iron Head? In the latter situations, one side must commit to a move whereas Sand Veil only requires the use of a certain ability and weather condition -- a weather condition which can be active permenately. In other words, Sand Veil is really, really gay because without much commitment, one player can be punished for choosing generally safe options.

YI:B's 'hazards' are pretty situational and don't heavily punish either player for choosing to play as they normally would.

 

[Life]

Leelue making stage arguments that were debunked by brawl players in like 2009. There's no such thing as a "standard" or "proper" stage.

EDIT:

I really need to stop posting while not on the last page.

If you want me to elaborate let me know.

 

[GHNeko]

9Kplus1 is one of my favorite posters when he isnt trolling and is being relatively serious. Regardless of how true/false/inaccurate/accurate/scrub/knowledgable his posts are/can be. It's just real neat to see the thought he puts into his posts.

Just a tidbit.

itt that one stage we hate

Spoiler

final destination

im the only guy in the world of P:M who wants FD to be a CP because we have far better starters/stages that are closer to neutral

that

and i hate how people use the reason of "its always been a starter" as a legitimate reason to allow FD to be a starter.

**** that **** ****kkkkk

 

[metroid1117]

Metroid
Nostalgia is something I simply never held. That's just me. Everything has to justify itself.
It's kindofa problem in my life, tbh. Makes me mad at a looooooooot of ****.
A recurring theme in my conversations is that there are lines that we edge towards and occasionally cross in regards to novelty. Randomness is one of those lines. Stage elements like moving platforms and blastzones are another. We can all agree that these things exist on a spectrum. Sse jungle is too big, FD isn't, etc.
We establish "rules" for the way the game "should" be played and approach these lines.

I'm not quite sure what you're getting at here, but I agree with the bolded portion.

Something like GaW not being able to sweetspot on yoshis would cross that line. It would violate a basic part of the game. This is similar to the point kage was tryin to make about Lucario. On early inspection, it violated something he thought was untouchable.

G&W not being able to sweetspot just means that it's a bad stage for G&W. It's already a dangerous stage for him, considering how the stage is so small. Not being able to sweetspot doesn't violate a basic part of the game because it's only on that one single stage, whereas the situations Kage was talking about with Lucario can occur on any stage. Fountain of Dreams is still a legal stage in Melee even though the platforms obstruct certain characters like Falcon. However, Falcon players have either learned to play around the platforms or just ban the stage altogether. G&W players should have to do the same and either deal with not being able to sweetspot or ban the stage entirely.

My example with the falling walls would clearly be beyond the line of acceptability. It wouldn't add enough to the game to warrant the silliness of its own existence. That's what I'm saying about the yoshi stage elements. Yes we can use them, learn them, play around them, and deride players who didn't. But why should we have to? Do they add enough strategically to make up for the times both players were interrupted by one and someone gained a stock?

In response to the bolded portion, I say yes. Seeing someone use Randall to their advantage is extremely impressive to see. Moments like Wesballz saving his jump to up+B where Randall will appear, Taj baiting Mango onto the cloud by stalling his get-up, and SS Raptor Boosting onto the cloud are all extremely smart decisions that were based off this dynamic. Also, I just remembered that the video you posted was from 2009; top Melee players have gotten much better in the past three years. Can you bring up an example of someone SD'ing on Randall in an important tournament match held in the past year?

 

[Juushichi]

FD has always needed to be CP. Doesn't matter what game.

People are making "ban" arguments that have been making me mad since Brawl 2010. I hate GHZ with a passion. To be honest, sometimes when people try to tell me Halberd is a bad/janky stage I feel like my head is about to explode.

Also, why is PS1 a CP stage in Melee (and I guess this game) that is very strong for spacies and (Frozen) PS2 is almost unanimously considered a starter even though it presents much of the same advantages? Serious question. Also, Metal Cavern is apparently a more valid CP than Brinstar? I feel like Dorothy when she gets to the land of Oz.

 

[leelue]

Actually neko, when I was in charge of the stagelist for Uprise I put FD on counterpick status

Metroid presents good counterpoints for randall. Touche.

9k, I don't get new age pokemon references

People made brawl stagelists? I thought everyone threw their wiimotes down steps like slinkies to play brawl, even during stage select.

 

[ELI-mination]

I can attest to being D-aired by Falco on my last stock only to land on "randall" when I would have otherwise died and lost the set, then came back to win it. In tournament. Twice.

And "randall" had just come out from behind the stage to save me both times.

Take from that what you wish... but I think any effort to blame the Falco player for not expecting it or reacting fast enough is a pretty weak argument. Considering that I didn't outsmart them or outplay them by landing on the cloud. It just seems like an unnecessary agent of occasional stupidity.

 

[metroid1117]

By the way, has anyone seen this video of Leffen's Lucario? The Ike player isn't very familiar with the game, but Leffen was doing some crazy **** with Aura Sphere cancels.

 

[leelue]

9k also I'm not sure if you are debating me from the proper angle

Metroid gave me reasons to keep randall.
Why should we keep the ghost or flyguys?

 

[GHNeko]

Faith in Humanity Restored @ people other than me thinking FD should be CP.

 

[stingers]

we should all just run fc stagelist.
except cut out pirate ship, wtf. add in sse jungle (and move it to group 3)(its fine for singles guys lol. some chars like the space.).

fc stagelist is so awesome though. banning groups is a great idea. in this game where there are "clones" so to speak of stage layouts, being able to only ban one stage is pretty useless when your opponent can just take you to one just like it. grouping them all together and being able to ban a certain "layout" is an AMAZING idea and I love it so much.

Plus theres a lot of stage variance, which I like. I'd hate to see p:m go the way of melee and brawl and only play on 4-5 neutrals when a fan-made game has the potential for so much more.

 

[ELI-mination]

I concur about FD being counterpick. Personally I'd be happy if it were banned altogether, lol.

It oversimplifies matchups.

 

[stingers]

I concur about FD being counterpick. Personally I'd be happy if it were banned altogether, lol.

It oversimplifies matchups.

you are just spouting off random words XD. how does it "oversimplify matchups"? what does that even mean? the lack of platforms changes matchups, but it doesn't simplify them. it means that you have to focus a lot more on your stage control since your options for easy escape are cut off (no plats to waveland on). it means its harder to camp since you can't hide behind platforms. and if you removed fd you'd have to remove pictochat as well. and at that point you might as well remove sv, its basically the same thing -,- which of course theres no good reason for.

 

[GHNeko]

>i was the one who first came up with stage group banning and barely anyone gave a ****
>FC happens

OMG STAGE GROUP BANNING AWSUMZ

wtf

**** you guys lol

 

[stingers]

GHNEKO YOU'RE AWESOME!! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR INTRODUCING IT
cle

 

[cannedbread]

opinions on castle siege guys? it reminds me of ps1, it has a transformation (middle) thats risky, but i like it as a stage, especially the first part. third part isn't bad either.

 

[GHNeko]

GHNEKO YOU'RE AWESOME!! THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR INTRODUCING IT
cle

 

[ELI-mination]

Remove Pictochat = fine with me.
Smashville is quite different from FD and Pictochat.

I'm one of the least campy players ever. I don't want platforms because I want to hide behind them. Platforms add a huge amount of strategy to the game aside from camping. A lot of characters in the game have plenty of cool platform tricks they can take advantage of.
So when I say it oversimplifies matchups, it removes many gameplay elements. Here's a bad example but an example nonetheless: Marth vs Wolf on FD. Ever try it? It's like 90-10 in Marth's favor due to chaingrabbing. Whereas on other stages at least Wolf has the option to DI towards a platform, or use platform shenanigans to mixup his approach to avoid getting grabbed. Also Marth can tech chase and/or follow Wolf onto the platforms with his own platform game. See? The matchup is becoming less simplified already.

So when you say I'm just spouting random words, and then proceed to spout some yourself, I can do nothing but sit back and revel in the irony.

 

[GHNeko]

I get what ELI is saying.

FD makes it so that how each character approaches the match up vs each other is pretty much anything but complicated. The overall amount of strategies that are in play on FD is far less (practically to the point where there is potentially only one-two) vs platform stages where the elements of platforms add many more aspects to the MUs and thus increase the overall amount of strategies one can employ in order to win over the other character. Of course this isnt in a general sense, this is in a specific sense. Less scenarios means less ways to go about things at a fine level, but not a grand level.

And it's kinda true. lol.

 

[leelue]

I dislike group banning, based on my first interaction with it. I'd rather have that many bans. That way we could keep the variance and the choice.

I don't think FD shouldn't exist - its the natural end to a continuum. Still think it isn't starter or neutral or whatever we are calling it these days.

 

[cannedbread]

not just the chaingrabbing. wolf would have no way to work around marths range besides lasers, dashdancing, waiting for openings, etc. it's not a bad stage by any means, but definitely provides an advantage to certain characters/strategies. it should be a counterpick.

 

[GHNeko]

I dislike group banning, based on my first interaction with it. I'd rather have that many bans. That way we could keep the variance and the choice.

I don't think FD shouldn't exist - its the natural end to a continuum. Still think it isn't starter or neutral or whatever we are calling it these days.

What's wrong with group banning? It allows you to legalize many stages without dealing with the biggest issue of legalizing many stages, ban invalidation. :V

 

[ELI-mination]

This guy Leelue is so wack. He uses a broken character, don't listen to him.

 

[stingers]

Remove Pictochat = fine with me.
Smashville is quite different from FD and Pictochat.

I'm one of the least campy players ever. I don't want platforms because I want to hide behind them. Platforms add a huge amount of strategy to the game aside from camping. A lot of characters in the game have plenty of cool platform tricks they can take advantage of.
So when I say it oversimplifies matchups, it removes many gameplay elements. Here's a bad example but an example nonetheless: Marth vs Wolf on FD. Ever try it? It's like 90-10 in Marth's favor due to chaingrabbing. Whereas on other stages at least Wolf has the option to DI towards a platform, or use platform shenanigans to mixup his approach to avoid getting grabbed. Also Marth can tech chase and/or follow Wolf onto the platforms with his own platform game. See? The matchup is becoming less simplified already.

So when you say I'm just spouting random words, and then proceed to spout some yourself, I can do nothing but sit back and revel in the irony.

I wasnt saying you were campy. I have no clue what your motivations are. I was speaking in a general sense. What do platforms offer?
- An escape route when you're cornered/being CGed (Forgot about the cg part originally)
- A tool to hide behind when you don't want to be approached
- A movement tool for aerial tricks

Thats everything I could come up with. The point being, all of these things generally rely on avoiding confrontation. FD (and Picto) are stages which are meant to promote direct confrontation and rewarding you for controlling the stage well enough (meaning mostly holding center) to where you can pin your opponent down.
Think of it like you're playing SF, except instead of corner pressure we get edgeguard opportunities.

Now I have to agree with you that smash is, at heart, a platform based fighter. That is what separates it from every other fg on the market. But that doesn't mean we should reduce stage variability and remove it. As you said, Marth vs Wolf, Marth gains a huge advantage there. So if Marth loses Game 1 to Wolf, it's certainly a great option for him to go to if he knows the CG, no?

While I don't have any opinions on it being a neutral or not atm, I definitely am strongly against it being removed altogether. Every stage should be legal unless there is strong reason for it to be banned. Marth CGing spacies is not a good enough reason for that.

And I appreciate the jab you threw in at the end, but come on. I explained myself in my post, you offered no explanations whatsoever. Don't be...that guy.

 

[GHNeko]

But can it run Crysis?
But do you agree/disagree @ FD over-simplfying MUs?

 

[ELI-mination]

Yea the thing about it being banned was just me expressing my personal dislike for the stage. I can say objectively that it should be counterpick though.

 

[GHNeko]

PS2 for the new FD plz

 

[leelue]

Neko, I'll answer you when I'm done with my homework.
I just realized that I r marf disappeared. Nobody made a holiday?

 

[stingers]

But can it run Crysis?
But do you agree/disagree @ FD over-simplfying MUs?

Eh...depends mainly on how you look at it.
From a raw-mathematical perspective, certainly. Say you have n options normally. You have n-p when platforms are taken out of the picture, so that leads to a decrease in possible options, meaning over-simplification, right?

But that opens up a whole new world of meta gaming. There is increased pressure on holding center stage in this scenario. You have to play as to never get cornered, as you'll lack the escape options you'd normally have. That changes the dynamic of the game in its own right, which is pretty cool. It rewards characters who can control a large swath of area at once, like Marth or Ike. Also, it promotes a more grab-heavy game for those that do have CGs, like Eli said. But as long as you know what your opponent wants to do, you'll always have the upper hand. Everything has a counter.

So yes, but I don't think that's a problem. It just means you have to change your priorities.