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Project M Social Thread
- Thread starter Project M
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DrinkingFood
Smash Hero
All these things you guys are saying are opinions. Every last one of them. FD should be starter but that's just an opinion and so it should be CP but that's just an opinion so it shouldn't be legal but that's just an opinion. Also stages are just an opinion.
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
I hope your theory works out and we never run into IMO again.
Personally, Iprefer the air like using the word "personally", but that's just how I feel about it. Personally.
Personally, I
Totally not a fan of the group bans. With the current groups it's possible to ban every bad stage for your character - basically giving you 2 Neutral Stages and an Advantage stage. That seems not ok.
Also why is pirate ship a CP stage? Pretty sure that should be banned.
Also why is pirate ship a CP stage? Pretty sure that should be banned.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
As a Sonic main you should know that you can't ban every possible bad stage for your character, sir.
If I recall correctly, the only reason Pirate Ship was a counterpick was because the tournament organizers for FC insisted on it.
Personally, I have no issues with the stage at all, but I can see why and how it would rub people the wrong way.
Personally, I have no issues with the stage at all, but I can see why and how it would rub people the wrong way.
I also think that more tournaments should run a "no johns" rule set when it comes to stages, but hey, what do I know.
leelue
Smash Lord
Lol Eli wins the page
Well the thing about group banning is that the TO decided what stages are in what groups. The criteria to decide what consists of a group can change. V:
Not only that, but group banning does not always allow one to ban every bad stage for your character lol. Usually because attributes that make stages bad for characters can span multiple groups. It all depends on how they're arranged.
As the game develops, creating a stage ban list that involves group that is reasonably fair will happen, assuming group banning becomes a standard for P:M (Which it should. this game has too many stages to waste and i think not using group banning with a large list is a silly idea.)
Probably don't like it cause most stages are bad for sonic. heh.
Where should Sonic CP bowser? Especially if he bands the group with FD and Picto-chat.
I went with Dreamland. Maybe Rumble Falls or Brinstar? Yeah probably Binstar. Lava forces him to jump.
Where should Sonic CP bowser? Especially if he bands the group with FD and Picto-chat.
I went with Dreamland. Maybe Rumble Falls or Brinstar? Yeah probably Binstar. Lava forces him to jump.
Life
Smash Hero
My problem with group banning is that not everyone counterpicks to stages for the same reason. For example, do you group them based on blast zone sizes? Aerial vs. ground (this was a big deal with MK in vbrawl)? Walls on the sides? Static vs. moving platforms vs. hazards? Where does GHZ fit? Drax? The Randall stage? (because Yoshi's Story Melee is a clunky name. I mean, we nicknamed Yoshi's Island Melee "Pipes". I vote we rename YSM to Randall.) FD? BF? Halberd? Do you group Metal Cavern and Randall together because both stages are small, or do you group them apart because of the radically different blast zone sizes? Halberd and YIB have a similar platform layout (one long central platform over a non-flat base) but play radically differently. And how many stages have the Battlefield layout? Should they be grouped together -- even DL64 and Randall?
There are too many ways to split up the stages into groups. I mean, I guess you could do overlapping groups, but that gets complicated.
Besides, do you really need THAT many bans? 2-3 should be plenty with even like 20 stages (roughly the maximum in vanilla Brawl before you start getting into stuff like permanent walkoffs, permanent walls, and Warioware).
I went over FD as a counterpick versus as a starter for Brawl (it was the most frequently banned stage at Brawl MLG, FWIW), but the situation with FD in Melee and PM is obviously quite different so I'll suspend judgment on that one.
There are too many ways to split up the stages into groups. I mean, I guess you could do overlapping groups, but that gets complicated.
Besides, do you really need THAT many bans? 2-3 should be plenty with even like 20 stages (roughly the maximum in vanilla Brawl before you start getting into stuff like permanent walkoffs, permanent walls, and Warioware).
I went over FD as a counterpick versus as a starter for Brawl (it was the most frequently banned stage at Brawl MLG, FWIW), but the situation with FD in Melee and PM is obviously quite different so I'll suspend judgment on that one.
The criteria on what group belongs where is up to the TO, much like how stage lists for smash in general is up to the TO. It's just as complicated on trying to figure out whether a stage is starter/cp worthy or banned/cp worthy when said stage is pretty much borderline, ya know?
on top of that group criteria should be relatively simple to be more encompassing and cultivate stage diversity within the groups to help further prevent ban invalidation.
2-3 stage bans just complicates things more than it should, especially when there aren't enough bans to cover enough of stages to prevent the problem of ban invalidation.
With group banning, you're essentially banning by traits determined by the region/TO.
It's also far more simple than multiple bans, at least i think so.
on top of that group criteria should be relatively simple to be more encompassing and cultivate stage diversity within the groups to help further prevent ban invalidation.
2-3 stage bans just complicates things more than it should, especially when there aren't enough bans to cover enough of stages to prevent the problem of ban invalidation.
With group banning, you're essentially banning by traits determined by the region/TO.
It's also far more simple than multiple bans, at least i think so.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
2-3 bans is plenty with an 11-13 stage list. It brings it down to 7 stages that can be the stages used for a given set.
Why would Metal Cavern not be an ok CP compared to Brinstar? This IS Brinstar we are talking about lol.
FD is fine, you could just use it as a CP. FD is fine as a starter imo because of how many platformed stages you already have for striking. FD should definitely be starter for teams imo.
A stage's legality should not be based or influenced by your stage ban procedure. If a stage is too big, you don't allow it because "Well if people have a problem with it they can ban the huge stage group".
Banning stages by group is fine ONLY if these stages are truly competitive to begin with. The huge *** jungle stage? Yeah that's not ok, and grouping it with other big stages doesn't change that lol.
I dislike group banning because a lot of times your stage threats are not "static". If every character, regardless of opposing MU, had the same kind of bad stages then yes it would be perfect. Falcon always bad on slanted stages? Ban them. Peach always bad on huge stages? Ban them. Etc. But it's much more likely for a character to have 1-2 stages in a certain group that they hate, based on something specific or something based on your opponent's likely character. Or even to have bad stages/MU's that vary and aren't all covered with 1 swoop.
If you do group banning, always have an alternative of individually banning 2-3 stages. You get more total stages banned if you do group banning, while having flexibility on regular bans. Replacing regular bans with group banning is a no-no, plain and simple.
Regular stage banning is fine. If you have a ton of stages legal and worry about them always being singled out, CHANCES ARE they aren't great competitive stages unless people have a biased vendetta vs Metal Cavern or stages that are ok.
Group banning is not the chance to make the stage list massive. The chance to make the stage list massive... is to make the stages competitive. That's it. Stages WILL get the chance to shine if they are truly competitive. You don't need group banning to force or allow them to flourish: they'd already do so if players liked them to begin with.
leelue
Smash Lord
I am fine with fd as a starter for teams and as a CP for singles. That last half is something I may have said earlier in the conversation.
I don't see a reason to ban by groups except to save some time. We could use the same number of stages, and just allocate a number of bans equivilant to the number of stages that would have been banned in a group. The only reason to use group bannings that I can think of other than to save time would be to have players not be able to ban an entire subset of stages by splitting them up.
Neko, explain to me what you mean by ban invalidation and then explain to me why having multiple bans wouldnt work. Perhaps I am misunderstanding your use of the word.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Are you kidding me? I came up with it. You made a modified version of my idea, which no one ever used. The FC stagelist was directly based on mine, which I've been using since Demo 2 came out.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
JC invented the gameboy.
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
I think the main character from Inception also came up with the Cobb salad.
And I came up with the **** salad.
And I came up with the **** salad.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Also congratulations on creating the most convoluted stage system in Smash yet.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
You're welcome. Most people who actually attend tournaments like it.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Thanks I'll be sure to think of that next time you don't give me a ride to one.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
ELI-mination
Smash Champion
I like the group system. I just feel it needs some adjustments.
I'd rather vaguely alude to them than make suggestions though.
I'd rather vaguely alude to them than make suggestions though.
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Toon Link's sword is like as big as he is lol
GP&B
Ike 'n' Ike
Dark Sonic
Smash Hero
Roy's our boy
JCaesar
Smash Hero
Regardless of the date when the thought first popped into your head, I came up with it independently, and unlike you, I actually implemented it, ran tournaments with it, and popularized it.
Ok let's move on.
Ok let's move on.
PGH Carroll
Smash Master
OH MY GIRL I ALMOST MISSED IT.
IKEEEEEEEEE IKE EIKEIKEIEKIEKEIEK
caps
IKEEEEEEEEE IKE EIKEIKEIEKIEKEIEK
caps
1st of all, I used it in my own local tourneys. I just dont have the same resources, networking, and time to impliment it on a wide-scale like you.
Also what you did with your idea has no barring on the actual conversation. The "unlike you" part is unnecessary and holds no relevance to this conversation. If anything, anything after the word, "independently" is completely uncalled for and holds a negative tone towards me. :/
wtf dude. like really now?
KOkingpin
Smash Champion
Btw
Pirate Ship / Ship of Fools.....
Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
(Quick someone help me change the subject!)
Pirate Ship / Ship of Fools.....
Coincidence? I THINK NOT!
(Quick someone help me change the subject!)
OmegaMuffin
Smash Journeyman
Kirby N64 FAir>Melee FAir
Kink-Link5
Smash Hero
Don't let the ego go to JC's head, Neko.
And JC, you don't just say "Let's just drop it" while simultaneously spitting out snarky comments like "unlike you."
Really children, this passive-aggressiveness is just a tad sophomoric. Now kiss and make up.
JCaesar
Smash Hero
It just seemed like you were trying to take credit for the FC stagelist, even though it was my stagelist with a few modifications. I generally try to refrain from e-peen waving, but I don't like it when it seems like someone is trying to steal the credit from my own independent work/ideas. I apologize for my tone.
Onomanic
Heaven Piercer
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